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The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

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Old 03-17-2011, 02:16 PM
  #101
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Oh lord....first time I log in for a year and look what is the first thing I see.....this thread.

Now I remember why I left in the first place. So much for nostalgia and renewal of interest.

Look. I realize that nowadays the PC thing to do is condemn the sh1t out of the accused and demand his head for the atrocities....but then I remembered the state of things in our country. That little thing called the constitution is pretty much toilet paper, and has been for a while now. The accused is guilty regardless of the facts, which not a d@mn one of us has.

What, he's guilty because a freakin COP says so? Oh lord.... from what little I saw, he's guilty of being horny and a little foolish. Cyberspace ain't the best place to cruise for chicks...I mean, who KNOWS what's on the other side of that screen *shivers*

I have had a lot...and I mean a LOT of experiences with law enforcement, both personally and professionally. I worked for years in downtown ATL at an underground metal club long ago, then a couple years in strong arm security. Do you know what a cop's job is? To collect evidence for the DA to gain a conviction. And maintain a "presence" for a show of force. This does NOT mean "all cops are scum", but by the exact same token, they are NOT the salt of the earth saints people seem to think. They're driven by the sames things we are. Money, ambition, temptation...and you aren't going to get a promotion writing parking tickets.

The problem I have is this was a sting. That means lure somebody in, lead the conversation, lie if necessary (that's legal common proceedure for a cop unless on the stand, you DO know that right?) bust everybody and sort it all out later. Trouble is, they have news conferences and put pictures on the web (I wonder why that is?) and ALL of the people busted are now GUILTY in the eyes of the public...period. If they later discover during trial that the subject was NOT guilty, guess what? You ain't gonna be told. When was the last time you saw a cop give a news conference when they busted someone and it was bullsh1t? When was the last time you read front page news that read, "hey remeber that guy we had on the news a few months ago for child molestation? Just uhh....forget that...".

Jason isn't a "rock star" to me. In fact we've had a few nasty scrapes in the past. I KNOW he's not perfect. But then again, Like Mike C said, how many of YOU are? Want me to be specific? Didn't think so. MOST of you have skeletons in your closets. Some have graveyards. If the few TRULY good and righteous people knew how many of you smoke weed for instance (I'm talking grey haired otherwise perfectly upstanding people, I personally know of over 30...that's not a typo) ...or cheat on your wife OPENLY and OFTEN... or gotten WAY too loaded on beer and drove somewhere (I mean staggering drunk)... there'd be no "sport" left. I can count the "truly righteous" people on one hand.

The rest of us are human. And the last time I checked, this was still the United States of America. And that pesky constitution is still in effect. That whole "innocent until PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW thing is more than a mild annoyance....it's the LAW!!! If you publicly condemn Jason for this BEFORE the trial, you are wiping your arse with the constitution that WE live under and COUNTLESS people died for.

The only problem I have with this situation is the lack of a public stated position from either the AMA or the NSRCA. if they want to replace him on moral grounds, I THINK that's thier right, dunno for sure. But if not, they need to stand up NOW and stand behind him or throw him under the bus. I THINK that's what the OP was eluding to.

People, a lot of you are WAY too slow to take a stand against those that TRULY deserve it, and WAY too fast to condemn someone who may not deserve it. I have so many knives sticking out of my back I feel like a porcupine... and I got nostalgic because I was helping a high school kid with an RC project, come here, and see this mess.

My health is one thing... but THIS is the main reason I left pattern, and won't be coming back I don't think. Don't worry haters, the door hit me in the ***** a long time ago...left a HELL of a mark I might add... I love you too. Step back and take a breath and a hard look at YOURSELF first. If you don't, this whole thing is OVER.

If you don't like the situation, vote with your feet and your wallet; that's your right. And that's exactly what I did, just for a different reason.

-Mike

PS I DO miss a lot of you. If you think you're friends with me, you are. The rest, well, you KNOW who YOU are.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:21 PM
  #102
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Default RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

Haikt,
I apologize you feel that way and I mentioned in every post I value opinions and I certainly do however we all know the difference between unnecessary dirt slinging and opinions. I do not want anyone to feel as they were attacked by my opinions. I merely wanted to get across that throwing someone in the mud is wrong and further more that’s why people post on a forum for a response. I only called out the mud slingers I didn’t attack peoples moral standing however if I were as shallow as a few of these guys I would have. Given my original post ruffled tons of feathers I choose to remove it.
I can not believe how many positive emails I got for my post and I thank you all for your time and your opinions.
Mike Costantine
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:36 PM
  #103
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Mike,
Thank you for your post I could agree with you more. Your words were truly strong and powerful. I do believe I’m going to print this for reflection. I’m sorry your health isn’t at its best I wish you well!
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:16 PM
  #104
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: MHester

The problem I have is this was a sting. That means lure somebody in, lead the conversation, lie if necessary (that's legal common proceedure for a cop unless on the stand, you DO know that right?) bust everybody and sort it all out later. Trouble is, they have news conferences and put pictures on the web (I wonder why that is?) and ALL of the people busted are now GUILTY in the eyes of the public...period. If they later discover during trial that the subject was NOT guilty, guess what?
I agree with you on this Mike. I have a real problem with the sting operation functioning like this. Putting their pics in the paper BEFORE trial and conviction makes them guilty in the court of public opinion and goes against the very basics of our society. It also REEKS of someone trying to justify either their current job, or get financial support for their job.

Does Jason have a problem he needs to deal with? Yes, by admission he does. Does acknowledging a problem make you guilty of a crime? Nope. He isn't guilty until a court of his peers says so. None of us have seen all of the evidence involved. All anyone has seen is what the DA and law enforcement has released. Until ALL of the information is public record, I reserve JUDGMENT and hope for the best for my friend.
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:37 PM
  #105
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ORIGINAL: 4u2nv-RCU

The main cause of the problem that exists is Jason . His actions and his actions alone lead to this siuation. His actions(stepping aside to take care of his legal matters) could also relieve a lot of the strife we are seeing out here. Secondary in fault is the AMA and NSRCA for letting it fester.
The NSRCA is not at fault here - they do not control who participates on the US F3A team, and therefore have no say in this matter at all.
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:46 PM
  #106
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Default RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

I'd like to have anyone show me the rules anywhere in the AMA or FAI rule book or charter than gives them the Right or Power to remove a member from the Team.

Anyone?

Tim
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:03 PM
  #107
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: MHester

The rest of us are human. And the last time I checked, this was still the United States of America. And that pesky constitution is still in effect. That whole "innocent until PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW thing is more than a mild annoyance....it's the LAW!!! If you publicly condemn Jason for this BEFORE the trial, you are wiping your arse with the constitution that WE live under and COUNTLESS people died for.
Not trying to take sides or be argumentative, but the "Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law", and the whole Constitutional argument, applies toa Citizen'srelationship with his Government, not society and other private organizations. There is plenty of precedence for private organizations taking action based on charges prior to conviction. You can bet that if a person was charged with this kind of offense he would not be allowed to teach children in a classroom, or serve as a Scout Master. We as individuals, or asmembers of an organization,arefree to have discussions and form opinions based on available knowledge, without being called "un-American". Whether it is appropriate for a person charged with such an offence as Jason is to represent our organization in a World Championship event is a valid discussion to have.

All that being said, I am troubled by the entrapment aspects of this case in particular. I think the changing charges may indicate a problematic case from a legal perspective. Still, in light of the facts as I currently understand them, I would not allow Jason to be in a position of control over my Children. Does this caution extend to participation in a model airplane competition? I am unsure, but interested in others opinions on this. So for me, this thread has value. It is part of a process that unfortunately needs to take place.
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:48 PM
  #108
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Well said, Mike! 

I wonder what the judgmental types will say should any of these folks be found innocent?
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:52 PM
  #109
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1bwana1


Not trying to take sides or be argumentative, but the ''Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'', and the whole Constitutional argument, applies to a Citizen's relationship with his Government, not society and other private organizations. There is plenty of precedence for private organizations taking action based on charges prior to conviction. You can bet that if a person was charged with this kind of offense he would not be allowed to teach children in a classroom, or serve as a Scout Master. We as individuals, or as members of an organization, are free to have discussions and form opinions based on available knowledge, without being called ''un-American''. Whether it is appropriate for a person charged with such an offence as Jason is to represent our organization in a World Championship event is a valid discussion to have.

All that being said, I am troubled by the entrapment aspects of this case in particular. I think the changing charges may indicate a problematic case from a legal perspective. Still, in light of the facts as I currently understand them, I would not allow Jason to be in a position of control over my Children. Does this caution extend to participation in a model airplane competition? I am unsure, but interested in others opinions on this. So for me, this thread has value. It is part of a process that unfortunately needs to take place.
Good point and well stated. If you read my post, you notice that I did allude to removal on moral grounds, IF the powers (AMA I think) deem it in the best interest of the sport. Whether or not I agree with THAT action is totally irrelavent.

My objection comes in from the automatic assumption of guilt before there has ever been a trial. He has been ACCUSED. So if I accuse Chip of trying to get in my 15 year old daughter's pants (an example, he's never met her LOL) then we assume he's guilty and kick him off the team as well? What if one of thier girlfriends got POed at one of them and accused them of abuse or child molestation, we gonna just send Van Putte? (LOL sorry Ron I know you know that's a joke). My point is we ALL need to take a closer look at this. Not just Jason, but our knee jerk responses and the way this group of people ignores years of transgressions by a few, while burning others (of "lesser value") at the stake for trivial crap that 99% of the time is fabricated rumor in the fist place.

We as a people need to have a closer look at how we crucify people in the media as well. A lot of those precedents you mention are pretty much the same thing.

Here's what I want you to know: if he's found guilty, which he might be who knows, then you have a right to label him as such. But we do NOT know. We have a media ***** cop who told us what he wanted us to hear...that he, the great savior of Florida, has mightily struck down and smited these abhorrent deviants in the name of righteousness and the good people of Florida.

Don't buy it so fast. You can bet if they had ANY evidence at ALL of child sexual intent of ANY kind at all, they'd be charging him with it...ALL of it. And let's make no mistake, that's ALL this is about is that FICTIONAL kid. What he wanted to do with the grown woman is his own business. I don't care if he brought a case of whipped cream and a chicken suit, who cares??????

This is a microcosm of what's going on in this whole country right now. Fact: we have 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners. Look it up. China isn't even a close second. Land of liberty? Pfffft we love to lock people up. Let's get that college kid for playing call of duty in his own living room and smoking a doobie too....it's illegal send in the swat team NOW!!!!! Shoot the dog he barked at me!!! (Too common in swat raids) Lets charge him with intent to distribute as well because although what he really had wouldn't fill a thimble, he has a bathroom scale...and we ALL know scales are used to weigh drugs with right? Then super DA can say how he got a dangerous drug dealing doper off the streets and now...your kids are safer, thanks to him. (Want video links? I got TONS of em) After all we have SOOOOOOOO much spare cash to pay to jail all of them. Not to mention court costs, police salaries and equipment, helicopters, probation costs, hey hey....we can afford to put half our citizens in jail!!

Do you guys know how many unsolved murders there are in Florida alone? What about thefts, robberies, carjackings etc? And you mean to tell me I'm supposed to cheer this numb nuts for entrapping a horny guy on the internet? On OUR DIME?!?!?!?!?!! Granted they probably got a couple of genuine predators off the street.....for a short time at our expense. And I don't begrudge them that fact. Making it a media circus and the way they go about it however is to me, unacceptable. Show me the pictures and tell me the names AFTER the trials, NOT before!!!!!

Now you have just as much right to free speech as I do or anyone else, until it crosses the line of libel (the typed word for the vast majority who think "slander" applies here). And so far I see nothing across that line....some right up to it maybe, but not across. Also I think the AMA needs to adress this quickly and loudly. Make a choice. Write a letter to the AMA if you need to voice your opinion to someone who can actually do something, I encourage that, either way your opinion slides.

Of COURSE you have a right to your opinion! And the right to voice it! My plea is to temper it with a closer study of that prejudgemental streak some people are showing...with great gnashing of teeth.

-Mike

PS Whassup Mike C and Doug!! Long time no hear/see!
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:32 PM
  #110
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He'll have his day in court to be sure. Until that time, I wouldn't dream of convicting him in my mind. I'm too distant of an observer to do that and that's what our court system is for. Until that time when all question is removed, I personally think he would be seen as the bigger man for not dragging the sport into this..... Which is exactly what is happening. I say drop out now, clear your name and come back as the man that sacrificed himself for the sport. He will have a much easier time getting back his respect down the road if he would only choose to do it that way.
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:05 AM
  #111
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Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law is to protect those that were injustly accused. And I can live with that! But when (like it happened a couple of years close to my home) a drunk lady driving a car kills a teenager, in my mind, she is guilty. If they find kiddy porno on some slimebag's computer (and that person lives alone), in my mind that person is guilty. If somebody corresponds on the internet, and hops in his car and travels to some place to meet 2 people to have sex, knowing very well that one is 14, in my mind that person is guilty... Entrapment, or not. Just think about it. Would you go to meet somebody with the intention to have sex with them knowing one person is 14? If you just "think" you would, get help, you need it, and it just might save your freedom and perhaps your life.

Very sad lack of judgement on his part. Like it or not, all the people will talk about this, and it will bring a very negative light to the event. But, remember, it is up to him to stay or not. Nobody can remove him based on what we know. But, given the nature of this I would not be surprised if the sponsors drop him sooner than later.

Gerry

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Old 03-18-2011, 06:39 AM
  #112
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Gerry, I feel you have correctly summed up Jason's situation in your above response. Prior to my retirement 18 months ago, I was, on occasion, involved directly in the medical treatment of many small children, preteen and teenage children who had been emotionally and sexually abused. The last sentence of your first pragraph says it all! Unfortunately, the treatment for the perpetrator is very difficult and seldom is effective. I have witnessed first hand the frustrations of the father of a young child as he attempted to deal with a particular perpetrator and it was not pretty! But, somehow I understood. Lest we forget, The State of Florida is no longer the liberal "hot bed" it once was and the laws and penalties for these types of activities can be quite severe. No matter what any of us think, in the final analysis Florida's legal system will prevail. For myself, I feel saddened because I've known Jason, his brother and father for more than 20 years and as a past supporter, I now feel disappointment. Let your moral compass be your guide___Everette
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:54 AM
  #113
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 4u2nv-RCU

I am a supporter of many things. None of those things has the right to unquestioned support...
Well said, John!
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:10 AM
  #114
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The aspect of entrapment is an interesting one. Florida passed a law making it illegal to travel with intent. The police then set up circumstances to entice people to travel with that intent and then arrest them.

In a way I see this as the police having a secret bar they run giving away free drinks, where upon they arrest people for DUI for coming to the bar, they have the intent to drink and then drive. I have issues with the police setting up the situation and contriving the circumstances to entice people into criminal acts. Especially when the act is not in fact done but rather just having the intent to commit an illegal, and vile, act.

As to this situation, if he is convicted then I think he needs to resign from the Team. If he is not then I see no issue.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:57 AM
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Silent-AV8R, Please give me a break! These individuals that were involved in this sting operation made a choice to participate. All be it a bad choice. No one forced them into anything! I see you hail from the proud/liberal State of California. AKA Nancy Pelosi Land! I can remember growing up in North West Florida in the late 50's and 60's back when Florida was a "liberal hot bed"! Please note, today because of a change in politics, Florida leads the Nation in the annual rate of executions of convicted criminals/murderers! HOORAH! The best to you and good luck, you will need it!_____Everette
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:02 AM
  #116
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mastertech

I'd like to have anyone show me the rules anywhere in the AMA or FAI rule book or charter than gives them the Right or Power to remove a member from the Team.

Anyone?

Tim
I've already posted that segment of the Team Selection "Blue Book". I think it's on the first page of the thread. The problem is, the rule is up for interpretation, that's why I asked the question to begin with.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

The aspect of entrapment is an interesting one. Florida passed a law making it illegal to travel with intent. The police then set up circumstances to entice people to travel with that intent and then arrest them.

In a way I see this as the police having a secret bar they run giving away free drinks, where upon they arrest people for DUI for coming to the bar, they have the intent to drink and then drive. I have issues with the police setting up the situation and contriving the circumstances to entice people into criminal acts. Especially when the act is not in fact done but rather just having the intent to commit an illegal, and vile, act.

As to this situation, if he is convicted then I think he needs to resign from the Team. If he is not then I see no issue.

Wow! Quite a poor (for not using another word) comparison. If you drive somewhere after corresponding with a person with the intent to have sex with a minor you are a certifiable slimebag who deserver what you have coming. As you pointed out "Fla. has a law that makes it ilegal to travel with intent". These people are not only slimebags, they are stupid slimebags because they leave all kind of material on the web than can and will be used againt them in a court of law. This operations have a high rate of convition because they have lawyers suggesting the wording:-)

Having (or attempting to have) sex with a minor is illegal, period. If you go to a bar, you can have a couple of drinks, it is not illegal. The cops do not need to set up a "secret bar". All they have to do is wait outside ANY bar and arrest erratic drivers. I do not what disgusts me most, people doing these kinds of things or people that try to justify the unjustifiable.

Gerry

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Old 03-18-2011, 11:19 AM
  #118
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From Wikipedia


Quote:
In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime had it not been for inducement or persuasion on the part of some government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. For example, even though someone may have sold drugs, as indicted by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then the person is not guilty.



Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:

  1. The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
  2. Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
  3. The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.

On the issue of entrapment, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.




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Old 03-18-2011, 11:46 AM
  #119
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: aceinflight

...maybe I should have be geared to the people that a take part of a so called Christian organization that allows thousands of little boys to be sexually molested by priests...

Mike Costantine
Now who is the person slinging the mud, "Ace"?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike Wiz

Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:

The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.
On the issue of entrapment, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.
That is why they have such a high convition rate. The cops know exactly what to do to get all they need for a successfull conviction. They are not going to send you a bulk e-mail inviting you to have sex with this minor. The soliciting will come in all cases from the scumbag, and all e-mails will be available for the prosecutor, and the slimebag's attorney. Works like a charm.



Gerry
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:12 PM
  #121
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: bkfamily1


Quote:
ORIGINAL: aceinflight

...maybe I should have be geared to the people that a take part of a so called Christian organization that allows thousands of little boys to be sexually molested by priests...

Mike Costantine
Now who is the person slinging the mud, ''Ace''?
Thanks, now I don't have to come up with a response to that little snippet. I find it funny the same guy asking for compassion and wanting people to stop slinging mud is non-stop slinging mud himself. I'm not sure, but perhaps he has trouble making an argument in defense of the accusations because as far as morality goes the act is indefensible? As I stated before, the legal aspect has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, and everything to do with whether or not one person's actions would warrant removal from the US F3A team.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:27 PM
  #122
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Default RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner


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ORIGINAL: eddieC

Well said, Mike!

I wonder what the judgmental types will say should any of these folks be found innocent?
Two things:

a) It is a miracle!
b) One of the darn cops scre**ed up, because unless one of the good guys messes up big time, non of these scumbags will walk. Only a procedural mistake would allow them to walk on a technicality. So, of the cops did not mess up, they are going down.

Gerry
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: The 800-pound gorilla sitting in the corner

Wow. My GOD. I can't tell if this is RCU or Faux news right now.

Thanks for the reminder guys, you saved me a fortune and a lot of headaches.

Enjoy...this.

Over and OUT.

-Mike
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:49 PM
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errr... didn't he already admit to being guilty when he was originally charged?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a great believer that one's innocent until found guilty... unless of course, one's already admitted ones guilt!

Imagine this scenario:
You're caught in a sting operation trying to solicit sex with an underage girl.
You admit to the charges.
Months later, case dropped because of some police/legal technicality.
You're free! Life's back to normal.
Hello? 





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Old 03-18-2011, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
a) It is a miracle!
b) One of the darn cops scre**ed up, because unless one of the good guys messes up big time, non of these scumbags will walk. Only a procedural mistake would allow them to walk on a technicality. So, of the cops did not mess up, they are going down. 
It's amazing what some folks 'know' after watching/reading the news... It's a good thing DA's and defense attorneys weed out those who 'know' who's guilty - or innocent - before a word of testimony has been uttered.

"The courtroom is the place where justice is dispensed with." - Rumpole

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