jimflys1

Been a long time since I visited RCU. Just discovered the Pattern forum.

I have been flying in D7 as a Sportsman for about 2.5 years on a very limited basis, exclusively the Phoenix and Yuma contests. Here are some comments and observations regarding my experience in NSRCA Pattern:

- I was turned on to pattern by a guy in our club how had competed tears before. He noted that I wanted to do more than to "poke hole in the sky"
- After he directed me to the NSRCA site to get immersed in the rules and pattern sequences, he showed me the ropes.
- I joined and have found NSRCA to be very responsive and helpful
- I attended the Sun Valley Phoenix contest entered Sportsman with a 40 size 3DHS Aspera (Pattern / Sport hybrid)
- I was so intimidated I almost packed up and left. Immediately Rusty and Robert B grabbed me and began introducing me to the fellas who all welcomed me and
encouraged me to just go for it and not worry about a score.
- I was awful. Total stage fright. But EVERYONE was encouraging and willing to give me pointers.
- Robert B attached himself to me (or visa versa) and mentored me
- I became addicted
- I have upgrade airframes several time but am still flying a less-than-2 meter-plane )Now with a 3DHS Osiris)
- Andrew Jesky took valuable time out to mentor/teach me one weekend
- I am looking forward to having a real 2 meter plane in the near future.

Over all a very good experience.

FYI- I had everything packed and ready to go to Victorville on Friday and my work crushed that trip at 4:00 in the morning, 2 hours before I was to take off.

So my suggestions for increasing participation is:

- Marketing. Let's get the word out- There are a lot of incorrect perceptions about Pattern (Cost, Exclusive, Hard, etc.). Perhaps a reintroduction article in the AMA rag.
o Simple fliers in the LHS. Quick talks at club meetings. Demos at Fun Flys.
o Messages - Pattern give you purpose. Great way to take your skills up a notch or 3. Sportsman is a fun way to get started. (I have many more)
- Create a beginners guide. I took me a while to get the rules and little nuances - Don't take for granted that beginners have a clue what a "Turn Around Maneuver" is
o Whats a score sheet? What do you mean no taxing? How do I know when it's my turn? Is lunch included? etc. etc. etc.
- The PowerPoint guides are fantastic- I use them a lot to spread the word. Perhaps we could add a beginners PowerPoint.
- Mentoring. Each district and CD should identify mentors for a contest. Look for the "lost soul"
- Make it clear during the Pilots meeting that there are no dumb question. Can you imaging a newbie trying to figure the scoring out?
- Have Newbies scribe and have their judge discuss the whys and wherefores of judging (this helped me a lot)
- Take pictures and send to the Newbie and include them in the NSRCA write ups. Everyone like to see their name in print.
- Send a recognition "letter" email to their home club
- Give every Newbie a certificate of participation

FYI, I will never be an FAI guy. I just don't have it in me (depth perception sucks along with terrible hand eye coordination), BUT, I enjoy flying with Eagles and the different fellowship from my home club (AMA and Gilbert Quiet Fliers in Phoenix) which is excellent.

Just my 2 cents...

Cheers,

Jim

Columbus Ron

I think Arch and I are saying the same thing. Pattern has to compete with girls, cars, IMAC, Helis, sport flying, etc. I think pattern is basically fine. Sure some minor improvements here or there would make it better.

Did anyone watch the ETOC this year. In my opinion this years winner was the smoothest and most precise of the bunch. Maybe he has more of a pattern background than the rest. It certainly appeared that way to me. I think IMAC pilots would benefit greatly by flying a little pattern.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

IMAC is stuck in this paradigm of only doing stunts "Real Airplanes" do.... rather than some of the Cool Rifts like Pattern... The planes in IMAC are certainly capable of anything a pattern plane will do... but they seem really closed minded on adding more interesting maneuvers... but I agree... it seems that flying pattern would benefit a IMAC Pilot... as I expect flying IMAC might also help a pattern pilot too.... (As IMAC does have unknowns)

1bwana1

Mith,
What manuevers do you think IMAC is missing? I don't think there is anything the the current Sportsman through Masters sequences that would be illegal in IMAC. They may be presented slightly differently due to the strict adherence to the Aresti Catalog that IMAC follows, but the elements and geometry is there. The F3A sequencemay have some like a rolling loop. There are rolls in loops in IMAC, they are just presented differently.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

how about the figure M with the 1/2 loop with 1/2 integrated roll

or the reverse knifedge

or the loop with the 8 pt roll across the top....

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

The figure M is the only maneuver there that wouldn't be legal by IMAC rule. Reason being IMAC is trying to duplicate full-scale aerobatics in model form. Pattern is not. The reverse knife-edge is simple a 1/4, opposite 1/2, opposite 1/4 roll. Perfectly legal. The 8 point across the top of a loop is absolutely legal, as I've put it in an Unlimited unknown I drew up years ago.

1bwana1

Like I said all the elements would be legal in IMAC including the individual components of the figure "M". Just the presentation is different. You could easily have a 1/2 roll at the bottom of a loop like the "M" has. The up/down line, hammer, and roll elements are all common. Come to think of it, I thinkthe 2009 IMAC Intermediate Known had a loop with a 1/2 roll at the bottom.

One thing that does not exist in IMAC is the "Slow Roll", roll rate is never a criterea in IMAC.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

It is a Rolling loop Steve... do they have those in IMAC??? And I guess I was mistaken.. I thought there were no 8 pt rolls in IMAC... at least I don't remember ever seeing a sequence with it....

1bwana1

I don't beleive that there is a formal figure in IMAC called a "rolling loop".  However you can place rolls on a loop.  The presentation, and rules would be different.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

I don't see how with the current ARESTI catalog, IMAC could add a one roll rolling loop to the sequences... I dunno... maybe if someone was clever they could figure it out..... as you are well aware.. the IMAC planes are capable of anything a pattern plane can do....

In my unimportant, irrelavent and totally useless opinion, IMAC should drop the dinosaur concept of replicating
"Full Size" aerobatics and take the lead!!! IMAC oughta add all the awesome stunts a 40% Extra/Yak/Slick/Edge etc can do....


But... I am not a mover nor a shaker in the IMAC (or any lol) community.. so it doesn't really affect me....
it just might freshen things up if they (IMAC'rs) shifted their paradigm a bit.

I do find it interesting that the few IMAC events I have any knowledge of typically seem to draw more participants than
a pattern contest.... Hmmmm??? I wonder why that is???

Steve.. you attend both.. why do you think that is the case???


and we missed you in Victorville last weekend!

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

Not possible. A loop with an integrated roll only allows for the rolling portion to be across 90 degrees of the loop. It can be at the top or bottom only, and cannot be integrated as a single roll around the entire circumference of the maneuver.

You also could not have a figure M in IMAC as you cannot put 2 stall turns into a single maneuver. You could sort of make it work as 2 separate maneuvers but there would be no way to add the 1/2 loop on the bottom as all maneuvers must start and stop in level flight.

Again.. Just because you call something IMAC doesn't inherently make anything less precise or less about precision. My biggest complaint with IMAC these days is the lack of a defined positioning criteria, and the arbitrary noise rulings. Adding in these different maneuver types won't change or freshen IMAC at all. It'll just make it Pattern with scale-ish airplanes.

desertrider49

My Feedback: (5)

Correct me if I'm wrong, are you suggesting "3d" or "high alpha" type manuvers in IMAC ?. Speaking strictly for myself, I don't care to learn 3d, (o.k., most of my flying buddies feel the same) I (we) truly appreciate how much time, money, with many crashed planes it takes to learn, but for me a model plane looks much better replicating the manuvers a full scale plane flies. Also, after the main event at an IMAC contest, there is usually (if time permits) a freestyle contest for those who wish to participate.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

I can't really say why attendance is down (I believe it's acutally up in D4), probably a combination of all the reasons previously stated. I do know how we will get new people into Pattern:
We have to invite them.

I've been involved in two types of competitive flying, SAM Oldtimers and Pattern. I had some interest in both for a long time but never would have taken the leap into actual competetion if someone hadn't invited me to. They said "You'd enjoy this", advised me on what I needed to start out, included me in their practice sessions, explained how contests work. They went with me to my first contests, introduced me around and generally held my hand, and it worked.
It's intimidating at first...the good guys look like gods to you when you're just starting out, but soon you learn that they're just people, too. They don't do everything right every time, and in my experience the best of them are also the most helpful.
Competetion of any kind is not for everybody, but I'm sure there are several people in all our clubs who would enjoy it if we just take the time to ask.

Scott

1bwana1

Same reason more Americans watch NASCAR than Formula 1.

I wishI could say I attend both. I have not been able to make either an IMAC or Pattern Event so far this year. I really haven't had time to put in much practice either. Life is too much in the way right now. I actually resigned from my work position over two months ago. However i promised to stay until they could train someone to take my place. So far, I am working harder than ever. I even fired my replacement yesterday because he was not up to the task. My Wife says I am too neurotic to retire, and I am just kidding myself. I am out to prove her wrong. LOL

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

The reason IMAC draws more participants than Pattern is simple. The airplanes are more accessible. By that I mean there are 3D/IMAC capable airplanes everywhere you look. The same cannot be said for pattern.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

I am suggesting that ANY maneuver that can have Judging criteria applied to it, could be part of the IMAC catalog.

For example... A sloppy looking Harrier roll looks horrible....
but doing a 8 roller rolling circle, with constant turning radius, constant roll rate and constant body angle and constant altitude .. oh yeah.. reversing roll directions every 2 rolls, is an extremely difficult maneuver to do WELL

Even a Torque Roll can have precise criteria enumerated making it a totally judge'able maneuver.....

too many people think in terms of "Precision" OR "3D"... I tend to think in terms of "Precision AND 3D"... and in particular "Precise 3D"...

if it is a trick a model plane can do, and can have explicit critera applied making it judge'able.. it oughta be part of the program....

imho...

and.. as I stated before... my opinion really doesn't matter as I have not participated in IMAC and as they say... "I don't have a dog in that race"




I bet your pattern plane is getting stiff and overweight... better let me take that puppy 'til you are back in action so I can keep'em in shape for you!!

bjr_93tz

I saw a "proper" torque roll done with an F3P plane once in an online clip.

The plane slowed down just like it was going into a spin entry, but instead of dropping the nose, it raised it's nose (without gaining altitude), performed a smooth 360deg roll with no bouncing up and down and blipping of the throttle, stopped then smoothly transitioned into forward flight.

Very well down, and displayed excellent control as the pilot didn't use the momentum of the plane to flick or force it at any time.

Precision 3D would probably be better of staying indoors with F3P, FC3 has the outdoor hovering stuff covered well enough.......

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

a bit narrow minded are we!!??

lol

http://www.matt-rc.li/deutsch/artist.../reglement.pdf

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

I think you might be onto something here....

It isn't cost.... soooo many guys flying IMAC have a fortune tied up in the planes, motors, trailers etc.... they could have easily spent less money
flying pattern... (Though the airframes for pattern cost more usually... at least for a "Contender")

There are a lot of guys flying big 30 to 40 percent gassers that don't fly IMAC... I rarely see a guy who flies a pattern plane for fun.....


I do think it is interesting that an IMAC event can draw 40 to 50 guys fairly frequently.....
what is the typical D7 Pattern Contest attendance?? 25? 30?