Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
01-15-2012, 07:14 PM
#1
Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Is there any movement inside YS to get into gas/petrol? I know the old style YS motors wouldn't work due to all the silicone parts, but I think the direct injection setup could be made to work for gas. Right now, it just seems that continued glow development is like making a state of the art buggy whip in the automobile era. I just have to think they are working towards gas, or they will watch their company go down in flames. Or do they think their name could be used to sell ultra expensive electric motors? Needless to say, even if the US distributor knows, he's not saying anything, but I thought somebody here might know......
01-15-2012, 07:37 PM
#2
My Feedback: (45)
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
At some point I know they were considering it, but I dont think they were having much luck generating the power and keeping it cool. I know for a UAV program previously we tried on a YS 1.60 that we added an ignition to and changed all the o-rings. We were able to make it run, but it didnt produce a lot of power and was difficult to cool. From what I have heard they were having similar problems. You simply can not duplicate the power of glow on gas.
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01-15-2012, 10:32 PM
#3
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
by simply converting a glow engine to gasoline its clearly not going to produce the same power.
There are internal changes that need to be made wrt to port timing, ignition timing and also perhaps heat rejection.
MVVS only kept their crank cases when they converted their larger glows in gasoline. Ys would have similar issues but exaggerated by the 4 stroke design.
The power in the fuel is there, the design just needs to be altered to suit the fuel.
01-16-2012, 01:30 AM
#4
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: TimBle
by simply converting a glow engine to gasoline its clearly not going to produce the same power.
by simply converting a glow engine to gasoline its clearly not going to produce the same power.
There are internal changes that need to be made wrt to port timing, ignition timing and also perhaps heat rejection.
MVVS only kept their crank cases when they converted their larger glows in gasoline. Ys would have similar issues but exaggerated by the 4 stroke design.
The power in the fuel is there, the design just needs to be altered to suit the fuel.
A few facts may be good to understand why a small gas engine does not produce the same amout of power. Before i will try to show you some chemical facts re petrol and methanol I will stress that engines not built up as racing engines with all sort of externally remedies to enhance power output is not considered here.
The IC engines may be considered as air pumps which may be considered as how efficient they are. The fuel used, in this cases are petrol and methanol.
Petrol can burn in an engine in the ratio in this case 1:12.5 (one part fuel and 12.5 parts air). Methanol can burn at the ratio 1:4.5.
Further, one pound of petrol has the energy potential of about 19000 Btu/lb, methanol delivers around 9800Btu/lb. This means that methanol produces less than ~52% of heat energy. However, the air fuel mix ratio clearly show that (petrol 1:12.5 and methanol 1:4.5) methanol air can be burnt at 12.5 : 4.5 = 2.78 times more than petrol. If we multiply this with the energy potential of methanol at 9800Btu/lb x 2.77 = ~22246. This indicates that methanol in correct fuel air ratio will produce (22246:19000)=1.17 ie 17% more heat energy than petrol in at the correct fuel/air ratio.
With nitromethan mix in methanol the percentage difference will increase in disadvantage petrol engine.
So mine conclusion is clear, hope i contributed to yours.
Best regards
01-16-2012, 05:07 AM
#6
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I dont think YS will ever go gas/petrol.
Like many say converting a glow engine to gas will not give enough power.. but my main concern is low or minimum vibration..
which a gas engine can't give in comparison to a glow or a electric motor.
From a pattern pilots point of view i would say i need my plane to fly more precisely & for this i would need a power source either glow or electric which gives less vibration i would never think of going for GAS for a pattern flying...
Like many say converting a glow engine to gas will not give enough power.. but my main concern is low or minimum vibration..
which a gas engine can't give in comparison to a glow or a electric motor.From a pattern pilots point of view i would say i need my plane to fly more precisely & for this i would need a power source either glow or electric which gives less vibration
i would never think of going for GAS for a pattern flying...
01-16-2012, 05:18 AM
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
The CDI YS engines are not glow engines. They are methanol/nitro burning supercharged 4-stroke ignition engines. In drag racing thats the combination that makes 8000 hp. If YS was able to make their current configuration run on 90% nitro with a good bit of boost no electric would touch it for a long time. It would be a thirsty thumper that would probably rip the nose off the plane at idle but header flames at dusk would be cool
01-16-2012, 05:44 AM
#8
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: Bill Clark
The CDI YS engines are not glow engines. They are methanol/nitro burning supercharged 4-stroke ignition engines. In drag racing thats the combination that makes 8000 hp. If YS was able to make their current configuration run on 90% nitro with a good bit of boost no electric would touch it for a long time. It would be a thirsty thumper that would probably rip the nose off the plane at idle but header flames at dusk would be cool
The CDI YS engines are not glow engines. They are methanol/nitro burning supercharged 4-stroke ignition engines. In drag racing thats the combination that makes 8000 hp. If YS was able to make their current configuration run on 90% nitro with a good bit of boost no electric would touch it for a long time. It would be a thirsty thumper that would probably rip the nose off the plane at idle but header flames at dusk would be cool
Iam sure the header flames will be spectacular. But remember one thing about nitro. It is a lousi fuel but for its property of oxygen it is good. it contains obout 53% oxygen and can be considered as chemical super charger. In an engine wich burns a mix of methanol and nitro and air as 1:3 (nitro added) it will burn about 70-80% percent more fuel pr stroke than petrol. So yes, without big modifications and external remedies a petrol engine will be a looser(at correct comparison).
Best regards
01-16-2012, 05:52 AM
#9
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I wonder if YS would consider a partnership and share it's supercharging technology... it sounds like there is a market for a supercharged gasoline engine in the model aircraft world. No one has done this yet?
Maybe time for one of us to find another way...
I don't know if this engine would be a hit in the pattern world, but surely in any other power-thirsty gasoline powered airplane.
Maybe time for one of us to find another way...
I don't know if this engine would be a hit in the pattern world, but surely in any other power-thirsty gasoline powered airplane.
01-16-2012, 06:06 AM
#10
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
I wonder if YS would consider a partnership and share it's supercharging technology... it sounds like there is a market for a supercharged gasoline engine in the model aircraft world. No one has done this yet?
Maybe time for one of us to find another way...
I don't know if this engine would be a hit in the pattern world, but surely in any other power-thirsty gasoline powered airplane.
I wonder if YS would consider a partnership and share it's supercharging technology... it sounds like there is a market for a supercharged gasoline engine in the model aircraft world. No one has done this yet?
Maybe time for one of us to find another way...
I don't know if this engine would be a hit in the pattern world, but surely in any other power-thirsty gasoline powered airplane.
Oh yes, I think the signature MTK is experimenting with petrol engines/props/Avgas fuel/tuned pipe. As far as I understand he stays away from tuning the engine just too keep it user friendly. One thing he has acceptet (I guess) is that he needs a larger displacement than a typical F3A wet fuel engine.
Joe, if you can come up with a gas engine (not tuned beyond any reason)comparable to lets say an YS in power and size/weight... your pension/retirement is secured. I will envy you!!!
Best regards
01-16-2012, 06:33 AM
#11
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I did try the Abbra (design for the ZDZ 40) around 8-10 years ago. I was able to compare the same aircraft with ZDZ 40, YS 160 and OS 160. There was at least 30% difference in power (glow more power). This was in the middle of humid summer that is the correct way to do it. I was flying the AMA Masters schedule in that time. The ZDZ 40 was having problems in some portions to a point that I was not able to use it. Clearly this could be a good option for lower classes in AMA. I will agree that we need 50-55cc with tuned pipe to get equivalent power of glow engines for 2 meter pattern planes. Meeting weight and noise is clearly challenging with 50-55 cc gasser.
01-16-2012, 07:05 AM
#12
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Just to clarify for anyone reading:
YS engines are supercharged. They use direct power from the piston/shaft to drive a compressor, and force compressed (mass of air at a decreased volume) air into the combustion chamber with the fuel.
As stated above, there is more energy per unit volume in gasoline than glow fuel (methanol). However, methanol chemically needs less oxygen for combustion. Thus, glow engines have a higher power:displacement ratio than gasoline engines.
Adding nitromethane to methanol increases the power:displacement ratio of a glow engine. Further still, supercharging a glow motor with a high content of nitromethane increases the power:displacement ratio even further.
The only way to get a gasoline engine to compare to a YS in power:displacement is to use compressed air and/or an oxidizer (what nitro is).
YS has figured out that there is a piston-compressor inherently built-in to a piston engine. One side of the piston is used in most engines: the side where the combustion takes place. Most engine use a 'breather' under the piston, so air can move in/out as the piston travels up/down. YS has utilized an internal rotary valve, directly driven by the shaft, to turn the piston/breather into a piston compressor. YS has turned an unused space inside the engine into a compressor, without external or extra moving parts.
YS engines are supercharged. They use direct power from the piston/shaft to drive a compressor, and force compressed (mass of air at a decreased volume) air into the combustion chamber with the fuel.
As stated above, there is more energy per unit volume in gasoline than glow fuel (methanol). However, methanol chemically needs less oxygen for combustion. Thus, glow engines have a higher power:displacement ratio than gasoline engines.
Adding nitromethane to methanol increases the power:displacement ratio of a glow engine. Further still, supercharging a glow motor with a high content of nitromethane increases the power:displacement ratio even further.
The only way to get a gasoline engine to compare to a YS in power:displacement is to use compressed air and/or an oxidizer (what nitro is).
YS has figured out that there is a piston-compressor inherently built-in to a piston engine. One side of the piston is used in most engines: the side where the combustion takes place. Most engine use a 'breather' under the piston, so air can move in/out as the piston travels up/down. YS has utilized an internal rotary valve, directly driven by the shaft, to turn the piston/breather into a piston compressor. YS has turned an unused space inside the engine into a compressor, without external or extra moving parts.
So, for YS (technology as we currently understand it) to get involved in gasoline engines, it basically means turning the breather into a compressor. I will go on a limb and guess that their technology has a patent - and say that anyone (including YS) is welcome to find another way to add a compressor to a gas-powered model airplane engine. Obviously adding an external compressor adds weight and failure points, which makes YS technology an absolute thing of beauty. I've tried to think of other ways to accomplish the same task, and obviously haven't.
Obviously gasoline still has a strong foot in the model airplane market; I think this is a very relevant topic. From what I've read in the pattern forums, it possibly could open a door for off-the-shelf gas engines to work, and make weight.
If anyone has any ideas...find me!
01-16-2012, 07:21 AM
#13
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I have been out of rc for a couple of years, but when I left it was electric power taking market share from glow. Glows market is 2.0 CID and less. Does gasoline even compete here? And is there some movement that I'm in-aware of to oust glow fuel engines?
01-16-2012, 07:33 AM
#14
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I think YS should consider entering electric motor business, if they want to keep profitable in the pattern community.
The current number we know is that 60-70% pattern pilots are using e-power now and almost all new pattern design is e-powered only. The base for glow power for pattern is just shrinking.
The current number we know is that 60-70% pattern pilots are using e-power now and almost all new pattern design is e-powered only. The base for glow power for pattern is just shrinking.
01-16-2012, 07:39 AM
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: Jimbo952
I have been out of rc for a couple of years, but when I left it was electric power taking market share from glow. Glows market is 2.0 CID and less. Does gasoline even compete here? And is there some movement that I'm in-aware of to oust glow fuel engines?
I have been out of rc for a couple of years, but when I left it was electric power taking market share from glow. Glows market is 2.0 CID and less. Does gasoline even compete here? And is there some movement that I'm in-aware of to oust glow fuel engines?
Here in D1, at the contests I attended last year there were typically 1 or 2 glow models per 18 to 25 contestants.
No wonder O.S. made the leap.
01-16-2012, 08:14 AM
#16
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
I learned about this right when I was in my second semester of thermodynamics, and as a mechanical engineer with a strong interest in thermo/fluid/aero mechanics, you can see that I LOVE the technology behind a YS engine.
So, for YS (technology as we currently understand it) to get involved in gasoline engines, it basically means turning the breather into a compressor. I will go on a limb and guess that their technology has a patent - and say that anyone (including YS) is welcome to find another way to add a compressor to a gas-powered model airplane engine. Obviously adding an external compressor adds weight and failure points, which makes YS technology an absolute thing of beauty. I've tried to think of other ways to accomplish the same task, and obviously haven't.
Obviously gasoline still has a strong foot in the model airplane market; I think this is a very relevant topic. From what I've read in the pattern forums, it possibly could open a door for off-the-shelf gas engines to work, and make weight.
If anyone has any ideas...find me!
Just to clarify for anyone reading:
YS engines are supercharged. They use direct power from the piston/shaft to drive a compressor, and force compressed (mass of air at a decreased volume) air into the combustion chamber with the fuel.
As stated above, there is more energy per unit volume in gasoline than glow fuel (methanol). However, methanol chemically needs less oxygen for combustion. Thus, glow engines have a higher power:displacement ratio than gasoline engines.
Adding nitromethane to methanol increases the power:displacement ratio of a glow engine. Further still, supercharging a glow motor with a high content of nitromethane increases the power:displacement ratio even further.
The only way to get a gasoline engine to compare to a YS in power:displacement is to use compressed air and/or an oxidizer (what nitro is).
YS has figured out that there is a piston-compressor inherently built-in to a piston engine. One side of the piston is used in most engines: the side where the combustion takes place. Most engine use a 'breather' under the piston, so air can move in/out as the piston travels up/down. YS has utilized an internal rotary valve, directly driven by the shaft, to turn the piston/breather into a piston compressor. YS has turned an unused space inside the engine into a compressor, without external or extra moving parts.
YS engines are supercharged. They use direct power from the piston/shaft to drive a compressor, and force compressed (mass of air at a decreased volume) air into the combustion chamber with the fuel.
As stated above, there is more energy per unit volume in gasoline than glow fuel (methanol). However, methanol chemically needs less oxygen for combustion. Thus, glow engines have a higher power:displacement ratio than gasoline engines.
Adding nitromethane to methanol increases the power:displacement ratio of a glow engine. Further still, supercharging a glow motor with a high content of nitromethane increases the power:displacement ratio even further.
The only way to get a gasoline engine to compare to a YS in power:displacement is to use compressed air and/or an oxidizer (what nitro is).
YS has figured out that there is a piston-compressor inherently built-in to a piston engine. One side of the piston is used in most engines: the side where the combustion takes place. Most engine use a 'breather' under the piston, so air can move in/out as the piston travels up/down. YS has utilized an internal rotary valve, directly driven by the shaft, to turn the piston/breather into a piston compressor. YS has turned an unused space inside the engine into a compressor, without external or extra moving parts.
So, for YS (technology as we currently understand it) to get involved in gasoline engines, it basically means turning the breather into a compressor. I will go on a limb and guess that their technology has a patent - and say that anyone (including YS) is welcome to find another way to add a compressor to a gas-powered model airplane engine. Obviously adding an external compressor adds weight and failure points, which makes YS technology an absolute thing of beauty. I've tried to think of other ways to accomplish the same task, and obviously haven't.
Obviously gasoline still has a strong foot in the model airplane market; I think this is a very relevant topic. From what I've read in the pattern forums, it possibly could open a door for off-the-shelf gas engines to work, and make weight.
If anyone has any ideas...find me!
You are abselutely right about the YS engine beeing fed by air pump and compressed by its piston.
But that does not alter the chemical fact, only enhances the engine ability to increase feeding into combustion chamber. May we call it a clever tuning?
Best regards
01-16-2012, 08:32 AM
#17
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: vbortone
I did try the Abbra (design for the ZDZ 40) around 8-10 years ago. I was able to compare the same aircraft with ZDZ 40, YS 160 and OS 160. There was at least 30% difference in power (glow more power). This was in the middle of humid summer that is the correct way to do it. I was flying the AMA Masters schedule in that time. The ZDZ 40 was having problems in some portions to a point that I was not able to use it. Clearly this could be a good option for lower classes in AMA. I will agree that we need 50-55cc with tuned pipe to get equivalent power of glow engines for 2 meter pattern planes. Meeting weight and noise is clearly challenging with 50-55 cc gasser.
I did try the Abbra (design for the ZDZ 40) around 8-10 years ago. I was able to compare the same aircraft with ZDZ 40, YS 160 and OS 160. There was at least 30% difference in power (glow more power). This was in the middle of humid summer that is the correct way to do it. I was flying the AMA Masters schedule in that time. The ZDZ 40 was having problems in some portions to a point that I was not able to use it. Clearly this could be a good option for lower classes in AMA. I will agree that we need 50-55cc with tuned pipe to get equivalent power of glow engines for 2 meter pattern planes. Meeting weight and noise is clearly challenging with 50-55 cc gasser.
Unfortunately the ZDZ40cc was and is the wrong set-up for our needs. It just doesn't breathe well enough and generates relatively low power.
Having said that, my gasoline experiments have definitely proven to me that gasoline in Pattern is viable. The very best experiment so far has been the piped DLE55 turning a 20x12 3 blade mezjlik. Best power available for a 2 meter pattern sized plane bar none. I am convinced that if an engine manufacturer wanted to build a purpose built engine for Pattern, it could be done. I don't have the best tooling in the world and yet was able (with a machinist friend) to lighten the DLE 13%, down to less than 43 ounces. I think that an engine maker can build this engine displacement at 40 ounces or less.
It's got terrific torque at mid throttle and everywhere in between and isn't even the most powerful engine in this class of size. If YS decided to make a 50 cc 2 stroke, supercharged, light engine they could easily do it. Hell if I can do it with my limited resources, why not them? I think the 2 stroke route is the better approach all around and really hope they consider it. The biggest issue is that Pattern people are very fickle and the masses always have flocked to the few brave ones that trailblazed...Electric is the latest craze and by many indications is likely to stay around. Battery chemistry is continuing to improve and motor offerings are really simple to implement for manufacturers.
As far as the rest of the envelope of requirements we seek, the DLE55 combination is supremely quiet at all throttle settings except full. It is reasonably noisy at full throttle but nothing like the same engine in an IMAC plane. Downline brakes are at least as good as an electric with a 22" prop. A large airplane also helps here. As far as meeting weight, still waits to be seen as I am in middle of building my next world beater. I think it will be very close....Kinda wished I had taken a video of my set-up last Fall. The plane is now gone, victim to radio failure, in a spectacular, gorgeous crash with the Mintor 38 up front
I am also very early in experimenting with the OS33GT. I've had some trouble with it so far but I may have gotten a lemon. The five good runs I've had tell me that this engine has a lot of potential also. It will turn an 18x12 with great authority and guys are using 19x10's and 11's on it. It actually turned one of 20x10's standard width blades with surprising oooomph, enough so that I decided to carve a 20x10 narrower blade for it, as well as an 18x10 3 blade. If we can tame this beast, the lightness and output are there and will have no problem with weight. As far as quiet goes, experimentation continues; final word not written yet. I want to hear what it does with the 18x10 3 blader, next spring
01-16-2012, 09:06 AM
#18
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Very interesting. I think I must have underestimated just how much power is produced by a CDI YS, and the technical difficulties in making a supercharged 4-stroke gas engine. I still think this doesn't bode well for the YS business model. If electric has taken over Pattern to the degree mentioned above, who is YS going to sell engines to? Sport fliers are leaving glow too. In the Marketplace, the resale value of YS engines is poor, which is a huge change from just even 4 years ago. As for me, I am just a just a wannabe Sportsman pilot just trying to burn fuel and learn how to fly the sequence. My lowly equipment consists of an Excelleron 90 ARF I squirrelled away a few years ago when HobbyPeople were blowing them out, and I am going to try a DLE 20 on it, just to make flying so inexpensive that I have no excuse not to practice often. It seems to equal an OS 120AX that many used on them, and since I'm flying the lowest sequence, I doubt power will be an issue anyway, low cost is the issue.
01-16-2012, 09:35 AM
#19
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Unfortunatly supercharging a gasoline burning engine with anything other than a mild dose of boost would not be practical without some means of intercooling. Charge temps rise/oxygen density takes a dive. As an example a 500" V8 with a screw blower or turbochargers at maybe 25lbs of boost on race gas can only make about 1500hp before charge temp/detonation threshold is reached. Switch it to methanol, raise the compression and set it at 45-50psi and you can get 3500hp mainly because of the cooling/vaporization qualities of methanol. Nitros a whole nother story and as mentioned early gulps as much fuel as air. I have always loved IC but the reality is electric will be the only competitive option in years to come imop.
01-16-2012, 11:05 AM
#20
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Some interesting news on the research front to improve lithium-ion batteries can be found here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-guzzlers.html
To quote: "A newer type, known as a lithium-air cell, is more attractive because it has theoretical energy densities more than 1000 times greater than the Li-ion type, putting it almost on a par with gasoline. Instead of using metal oxides in the positive electrode, lithium-air cells use carbon, which is lighter and reacts with oxygen from the air around it to produce an electrical current."
To quote: "A newer type, known as a lithium-air cell, is more attractive because it has theoretical energy densities more than 1000 times greater than the Li-ion type, putting it almost on a par with gasoline. Instead of using metal oxides in the positive electrode, lithium-air cells use carbon, which is lighter and reacts with oxygen from the air around it to produce an electrical current."
01-16-2012, 11:27 AM
#21
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
The crop of available 2-stroke cycle engines, both SI & glow have developed around intake & exhaust functions that compete for cylinder volume. A technique not explored (to my knowledge) is a bottom feed 2-stroke engine. This system has intake ports around the bottom of the cylinder and poppet type exhaust valves in the head. A blower supplies intake air (can be supercharged) into the bottom of the cylinder which sweeps the exhaust gasses out the exhaust valves - fulling charging the cylinder. The crankcase compressing loads of a 2-stroke or YS are also absent from the piston downstroke. Kind of a hybrid 2 stroke having the cylinder filling of a 4-stroke (and the complexity of one) with the smoothness of a 2-stroke. Most of these type engines are large diesels - think locomotives - but it would be fun to look at the possibilities of a small model engine.
Another possiblity is turbocharging the 4-stroke cycle engine. Our rpm range is high enough that turbo lag shouldn't be an issue. The turbo would not only add power, but act as a muffler.
Most engine design options seem academic with electric motors doing a good job simply, but still fun to think about.
Another possiblity is turbocharging the 4-stroke cycle engine. Our rpm range is high enough that turbo lag shouldn't be an issue. The turbo would not only add power, but act as a muffler.
Most engine design options seem academic with electric motors doing a good job simply, but still fun to think about.
01-16-2012, 04:07 PM
#22
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
I like the turbo idea, but why not a rotary valve inside the intake like the old can-am motorcycles or both to work with each other and make tons of boost
01-16-2012, 04:22 PM
#23
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RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
ORIGINAL: MTK
Vince,
Unfortunately the ZDZ40cc was and is the wrong set-up for our needs. It just doesn't breathe well enough and generates relatively low power.
Having said that, my gasoline experiments have definitely proven to me that gasoline in Pattern is viable. The very best experiment so far has been the piped DLE55 turning a 20x12 3 blade mezjlik. Best power available for a 2 meter pattern sized plane bar none. I am convinced that if an engine manufacturer wanted to build a purpose built engine for Pattern, it could be done. I don't have the best tooling in the world and yet was able (with a machinist friend) to lighten the DLE 13%, down to less than 43 ounces. I think that an engine maker can build this engine displacement at 40 ounces or less.
It's got terrific torque at mid throttle and everywhere in between and isn't even the most powerful engine in this class of size. If YS decided to make a 50 cc 2 stroke, supercharged, light engine they could easily do it. Hell if I can do it with my limited resources, why not them? I think the 2 stroke route is the better approach all around and really hope they consider it. The biggest issue is that Pattern people are very fickle and the masses always have flocked to the few brave ones that trailblazed...Electric is the latest craze and by many indications is likely to stay around. Battery chemistry is continuing to improve and motor offerings are really simple to implement for manufacturers.
As far as the rest of the envelope of requirements we seek, the DLE55 combination is supremely quiet at all throttle settings except full. It is reasonably noisy at full throttle but nothing like the same engine in an IMAC plane. Downline brakes are at least as good as an electric with a 22'' prop. A large airplane also helps here. As far as meeting weight, still waits to be seen as I am in middle of building my next world beater. I think it will be very close....Kinda wished I had taken a video of my set-up last Fall. The plane is now gone, victim to radio failure, in a spectacular, gorgeous crash with the Mintor 38 up front
I am also very early in experimenting with the OS33GT. I've had some trouble with it so far but I may have gotten a lemon. The five good runs I've had tell me that this engine has a lot of potential also. It will turn an 18x12 with great authority and guys are using 19x10's and 11's on it. It actually turned one of 20x10's standard width blades with surprising oooomph, enough so that I decided to carve a 20x10 narrower blade for it, as well as an 18x10 3 blade. If we can tame this beast, the lightness and output are there and will have no problem with weight. As far as quiet goes, experimentation continues; final word not written yet. I want to hear what it does with the 18x10 3 blader, next spring
ORIGINAL: vbortone
I did try the Abbra (design for the ZDZ 40) around 8-10 years ago. I was able to compare the same aircraft with ZDZ 40, YS 160 and OS 160. There was at least 30% difference in power (glow more power). This was in the middle of humid summer that is the correct way to do it. I was flying the AMA Masters schedule in that time. The ZDZ 40 was having problems in some portions to a point that I was not able to use it. Clearly this could be a good option for lower classes in AMA. I will agree that we need 50-55cc with tuned pipe to get equivalent power of glow engines for 2 meter pattern planes. Meeting weight and noise is clearly challenging with 50-55 cc gasser.
I did try the Abbra (design for the ZDZ 40) around 8-10 years ago. I was able to compare the same aircraft with ZDZ 40, YS 160 and OS 160. There was at least 30% difference in power (glow more power). This was in the middle of humid summer that is the correct way to do it. I was flying the AMA Masters schedule in that time. The ZDZ 40 was having problems in some portions to a point that I was not able to use it. Clearly this could be a good option for lower classes in AMA. I will agree that we need 50-55cc with tuned pipe to get equivalent power of glow engines for 2 meter pattern planes. Meeting weight and noise is clearly challenging with 50-55 cc gasser.
Unfortunately the ZDZ40cc was and is the wrong set-up for our needs. It just doesn't breathe well enough and generates relatively low power.
Having said that, my gasoline experiments have definitely proven to me that gasoline in Pattern is viable. The very best experiment so far has been the piped DLE55 turning a 20x12 3 blade mezjlik. Best power available for a 2 meter pattern sized plane bar none. I am convinced that if an engine manufacturer wanted to build a purpose built engine for Pattern, it could be done. I don't have the best tooling in the world and yet was able (with a machinist friend) to lighten the DLE 13%, down to less than 43 ounces. I think that an engine maker can build this engine displacement at 40 ounces or less.
It's got terrific torque at mid throttle and everywhere in between and isn't even the most powerful engine in this class of size. If YS decided to make a 50 cc 2 stroke, supercharged, light engine they could easily do it. Hell if I can do it with my limited resources, why not them? I think the 2 stroke route is the better approach all around and really hope they consider it. The biggest issue is that Pattern people are very fickle and the masses always have flocked to the few brave ones that trailblazed...Electric is the latest craze and by many indications is likely to stay around. Battery chemistry is continuing to improve and motor offerings are really simple to implement for manufacturers.
As far as the rest of the envelope of requirements we seek, the DLE55 combination is supremely quiet at all throttle settings except full. It is reasonably noisy at full throttle but nothing like the same engine in an IMAC plane. Downline brakes are at least as good as an electric with a 22'' prop. A large airplane also helps here. As far as meeting weight, still waits to be seen as I am in middle of building my next world beater. I think it will be very close....Kinda wished I had taken a video of my set-up last Fall. The plane is now gone, victim to radio failure, in a spectacular, gorgeous crash with the Mintor 38 up front
I am also very early in experimenting with the OS33GT. I've had some trouble with it so far but I may have gotten a lemon. The five good runs I've had tell me that this engine has a lot of potential also. It will turn an 18x12 with great authority and guys are using 19x10's and 11's on it. It actually turned one of 20x10's standard width blades with surprising oooomph, enough so that I decided to carve a 20x10 narrower blade for it, as well as an 18x10 3 blade. If we can tame this beast, the lightness and output are there and will have no problem with weight. As far as quiet goes, experimentation continues; final word not written yet. I want to hear what it does with the 18x10 3 blader, next spring
I agree that a 50-55 CC gasser could make the power for pattern. Anything smaller will have hard time to produce the power we need when we are flying in a contest at 100 oF @ high humidity. If any gas engine can produce the power and meet the noise and weight required by pattern, I will be the getting one.
Good luck and keep doing a good job informing about gas engines for pattern.
01-16-2012, 08:06 PM
#24
RE: Will YS ever go gas/petrol?
Probably a gas engine wich can put the same power as the YS will be awesome, but the research is the slow part of it, as MTK has been playing with many combinations, and still working on it, but , the YS is still setting the bar height, and that is because they have been working on the supercharger system for over 20 years I think, so gas engines need time and a manufacturer wishing to invest on it.
If YS should go elecetric or not? Some things need to be considered, they are a relatively small to medium size company, they are not like OS/Futaba, and they build as many engines as they want to sell, YS is not an engine with over stock status, and if we talk about the pattern comunity, it has to be done worldwide, The USA is not the reference, so if they do not sell at lot of engines here it doesn't mean they will run out of business, two important facts are, there are more than 460 pilots in Japan alone of wich about 90% fly YS and a small portion OS, Japan alone has more pattern pilots in their f3A ranking than most other whole continents, and the other important fact, their strong line of engine are the helicopter engines where they dominate the market still, not pattern.
Supercharging or turbocharging a gasoline engine has it's inherent complications, if it is supercharged the air has to be cooled by means of intercooler as previously mentioned or it will overheat, supercharged engines are not easy ot make, as gasoline has way more caloric power than alcohol, I don't remember correctly but I think gasoline was 33.000btu and glow 19.000btu, so heat also is a main cause of power loss in gas engines, and YS engines have been fighting this overheating by many modelers, imagine on a gas engine.
An engine has to be easy to set and reliable, for us YS has proven to be like this, I have more than 15 years experience on the YS 4cycle, but it might not be the frendliest engine to many, the 175 will change that I think, but imagine how long a gas engine line will last if it develop problems and someone start writing crap here in RCU about it...... Not easy.
Even though gas is cheaper, an engine comparable to YS will not be cheap, as the user will pay for the R&D, and the YS CDI can run on 0 nitro and up, so it is actually as cheap as an OS 40 to operate, That is something to be considered when 10% nitro fuel is at $16 a gallon against $3.5 for a gallon of fuel. The 30% gallon used to be $34 a gallon, but now is at $29, still expensive but not mandatoy anymore.
My opinion, of course.
Regards
Alejandro P.
If YS should go elecetric or not? Some things need to be considered, they are a relatively small to medium size company, they are not like OS/Futaba, and they build as many engines as they want to sell, YS is not an engine with over stock status, and if we talk about the pattern comunity, it has to be done worldwide, The USA is not the reference, so if they do not sell at lot of engines here it doesn't mean they will run out of business, two important facts are, there are more than 460 pilots in Japan alone of wich about 90% fly YS and a small portion OS, Japan alone has more pattern pilots in their f3A ranking than most other whole continents, and the other important fact, their strong line of engine are the helicopter engines where they dominate the market still, not pattern.
Supercharging or turbocharging a gasoline engine has it's inherent complications, if it is supercharged the air has to be cooled by means of intercooler as previously mentioned or it will overheat, supercharged engines are not easy ot make, as gasoline has way more caloric power than alcohol, I don't remember correctly but I think gasoline was 33.000btu and glow 19.000btu, so heat also is a main cause of power loss in gas engines, and YS engines have been fighting this overheating by many modelers, imagine on a gas engine.
An engine has to be easy to set and reliable, for us YS has proven to be like this, I have more than 15 years experience on the YS 4cycle, but it might not be the frendliest engine to many, the 175 will change that I think, but imagine how long a gas engine line will last if it develop problems and someone start writing crap here in RCU about it...... Not easy.
Even though gas is cheaper, an engine comparable to YS will not be cheap, as the user will pay for the R&D, and the YS CDI can run on 0 nitro and up, so it is actually as cheap as an OS 40 to operate, That is something to be considered when 10% nitro fuel is at $16 a gallon against $3.5 for a gallon of fuel. The 30% gallon used to be $34 a gallon, but now is at $29, still expensive but not mandatoy anymore.
My opinion, of course.
Regards
Alejandro P.