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  1. #76

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Bryan,

    I wonder who is getting absurd and belligerent now? Because I know I never did.

    You present your points without the science to back them up, and then attack and insult the person who points that out. Many of your points are simply incorrect to the actual known aerodynamics. That doesn't mean that what you have developed doesn't fly well. I'm absolutely sure that it does. The fact that you really don't understand why it does simply puts you on the list of a lot of top model airplane designers and fliers. Very little about R/C Precision Aerobatics is done objectively with actual data to support it. Sometimes the only real data are contest results. What wins is better then what doesn't. And we all know that isn't always correct.

    I gave you guys praise for your accomplishment. I still do that. Great job! I just don't see where placing third at the US Nats means that it's the only way to go. But it is obviously another good choice of the many that are out there.
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  2. #77

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: TonyF

    Bryan,

    I wonder who is getting absurd and belligerent now? Because I know I never did.

    You present your points without the science to back them up, and then attack and insult the person who points that out. Many of your points are simply incorrect to the actual known aerodynamics. That doesn't mean that what you have developed doesn't fly well. I'm absolutely sure that it does. The fact that you really don't understand why it does simply puts you on the list of a lot of top model airplane designers and fliers. Very little about R/C Precision Aerobatics is done objectively with actual data to support it. Sometimes the only real data are contest results. What wins is better then what doesn't. And we all know that isn't always correct.

    I gave you guys praise for your accomplishment. I still do that. Great job! I just don't see where placing third at the US Nats means that it's the only way to go. But it is obviously another good choice of the many that are out there.
    Hi Tony,
    You're hitting a nail on the head in the last paragraph.
    Aside from the 'mass migration' comment the context of this discussion is that of the 4th placed guy taking a blinkered lead from the 3rd place guys.
    He did acknowledge the the guy in 1st and than dissed the means quickly so as to get to the 'better' means used by the 3rd placed guys.
    Questionable to say the least.
    That is not to say there is anything wrong with Bryan and Brett's approach, it's just to say that to glibly cast aside the approach of the guy's in 1st and 2nd would seem ,to me an outsider, foolish.

    Having said all that there is another context , that of the 2013 WC's.
    It sounds like the guys Bryan & Brett have a focus on developing a flying style ,and the equipment to accommodate this style with a view to that end.
    I commend them for that.
    It is likely that the site in SA is at altitude ,perhaps 4 or 5,000 ft (I have not checked).
    This being the case would mean the bipe is going to gain some more advantage.
    I'm just don't know what the story will be with the YS and props. It has to loose some of it's oomph ?.

    Developing an apt,, style is a really good thing for the guys to do.
    I wish them all the very best with this effort.

    I also think the contra will come into it's own in those high altitude conditions.
    Would AJ win if he used one - I think it would be very likely. It is going to take something special to dislodge CPLR.

    Brian



  3. #78

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Interesting question about the effects of higher altitude on equipment choice. Would have to factor in temperature also to see the difference in density altitude from where the equipment was winning before. This will effect electric as well as IC as thrust will be lost as density altitude goes up for any given prop, I believe. Would change power loading inform choice of prop perhaps? Who has been flying at higher density altitude may have an advantage? Any thoughts?
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  4. #79

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hi,
    IC ,as you know, is the burning of fuel in air/oxygen. The bang will be diminished some, I have no idea how much.
    It's just that it sounds like the guys have a really big plane to drag around.
    With electric the 'fuel' is the pack - not affected at all in the same way by alt,, .
    The contra ,with those two big and slow moving props, would excel.

    Brian

  5. #80

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Less dense air will reduce the lift of wings, any lift producing surfaces, and the thrust of propellers regardless of power plant choice. The lightly loaded airframes will have an advantage at higher altitudes, electric or IC. It will be interesting to see if this is a factor in SA and how the competitors perform under those conditions if higher density altitudes come into play.
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  6. #81

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hi,
    Yes I know all that.
    However the YS may go down on power enough ,maybe just a little, to upset a fine balance like the one Bryan is working out.
    I really don't know.
    With electric all that is required is to increase ,slightly, the prop load to produce the same power as before.
    Now the power to weight is the same but the power to drag has increased.
    With the YS the power to drag will decrease slightly simply due to the supercharge method.
    Will this make any difference - I really do not know.
    With stuff like this you can be just a foot from a cliff's edge ,but be on really solid ground.
    Then something can erode the 1 foot of margin bringing you to a threshold, previously unseen.
    It's good to be prepared.

    Brian

  7. #82

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Rather than just guessing about the altitude & thin air condition in South Africa i think pilots in SA would be the best to comment on this & any ways i think the pilots skill be the last key to success.... regardless electric or YS power... If you ask me I put my money on YS... no matter what the altitude..
    I will say it only once Yak 54 the best aerobatic plane ever made.

  8. #83

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hi,
    Yes there are lots of Alfermas out there
    I believe Bryan and Brett's project is unique.
    They seem to be fine-tuning props etc to to nth degree.
    I'm just saying ; better if they are prepared and that the 'flexibility' that electrics offer can deal with such hiccups, especially so with the contra.

  9. #84
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    I really need to point something out,

    Field elevation, Bryan, Brett, Tuny and I all flew YS at 8500Feet, Chip flew there too, the YS engines DID NOT lack any power, and the reduced aerodinamic effects are equal to all airframes, and the electric brakes also changed.

    The YS175 can idle at 1200RPM, it is very slow for an IC engine of its class.

    NO LIFT ON DOWN LINES???????? what do you guys think makes ALL aircraft pull to the canopy on the down lines??? so Bernoulli was right but wrong if would fly pattern??? come on....


    I have been flying YS for many years, and also fly my Amethyst with a Hacker C50-14XL Competition Wolfgang Matt Limited Edition, it is not a weak mottor and the low end torque is nothing or inexistent compared to the YS, as I regularly fly both.

    Ys has the low end torque or mid range, without having to make a throttle curve, on electric after you make that curve is when you have the torque on the botom, at least on my setups.

    If a pilot like Chip wich is one of the most succesfull pattern pilots ever, who has won anything competition wise, is thinking at the posibility of a YS power airframe it has to be for a good reason.

    Regards

  10. #85
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    At higher altitudes - efficiency is the watchword
    At 5000ft elevation - youare down about 13% (or so) on air
    lighter is better . Bipes are of no advantage as efficiency is less - always- but they will obviously work.
    electric has instant advantage as it does not need to burn air
    Props - bigger is better
    Anything which is going to add weight - forget it
    You will need to fly faster to get same amount of lift
    If you have not been there - you can't appreciate the differences.
    Libby is still watching you

  11. #86

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: apereira

    I really need to point something out,

    Field elevation, Bryan, Brett, Tuny and I all flew YS at 8500Feet, Chip flew there too, the YS engines DID NOT lack any power, and the reduced aerodinamic effects are equal to all airframes, and the electric brakes also changed.

    The YS175 can idle at 1200RPM, it is very slow for an IC engine of its class.

    NO LIFT ON DOWN LINES???????? what do you guys think makes ALL aircaft pull to the canopy on the down lines??? so Bernoulli was right but wrong if would fly pattern??? come on....


    I have been flying YS for many years, and also fly my Amethyst with a Hacker C50-14XL Competition Wolfgang Matt Limited Edition, it is not a weak mottor and the low end torque is nothing or inexistent compared to the YS, as I regularly fly both.

    Ys as the low end torque or mid range, without having to make a throttle curve, on electric after you make that curve is when yopu have to torque on the botom, at lest on my setups.

    If a pilot like Chip wich is one of the most succesfull pattern pilots ever, who has won anything competition wise, is thinking at the posibility of a YS power airframe it has to be for a good reason.

    Regards
    Hi,
    You just picked one of the worst 'E' motors that there are for 'low end torque'. A Hacker + a sticky label.
    That is a bit like bringing a 140FZ into the conversation and then saying that 'YS's' are not able to power big bipes up from low end through mid-range. It would be beside the point.
    However it is not as bad as you describe.

    Brian


  12. #87

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    It seems that talking the science here with some is like trying to talk about evolution with a bunch of Republican Presidential candidates. Fortunately there are others here that know how to make sense from all this.

    Good luck to the U.S. Team in 2013! I think this team will prove to be one of the strongest teams ever! And may very well return not only the Team Championship but also the Individual to the good ole USA. After all, it's been over a fifth of a century since the USA had an Individual Champion!
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  13. #88

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hey Tony
    You seem to be taking the most offense to the statement I made about the mass swap back to YS.
    I know your all over the contra set up and you have stock in that system, done a lot of testing ,it seems though that what is supposed to be the end all for pattern has caused you to go into the trick bag ,to overcome 5 other problems that it created .I understand that, I`m not saying the Contra does not work ,it`s one approach, it also has many side effects that are trying to be worked out.

    OK I`ll back track and Say a may be lack of sleep on the project affected my statement.
    I modify it to say Many many many Guys will switch back to YS.

    You Fault me for not putting Sience behind my statements and accomplishments ,, because you can`t understand common sense. Sience has blinded you.
    Common sense is all it takes to understand what I say. However I debunk your so called Sience with the same common sense and you get Belligerant making absured statments with sould have ,could have ,would have.
    Just because you quote stuff repeated in the pits and in theory from real aero. manuals does not mean you can produce any facts to back up what you claim either, and quoting some one with so called wind tunnel test does not really support your arguments either.
    It`s like arguing with a preachers kid Quoting what is heard is not Fact, esspecially when it`s obvious the opposite is true!


    I did not say a YS/ bipe was the only way to attack the new patterns in" FAI"But a better way, and some times a better way at the TOP, is the only way. But,as Always ,Skill, and practice will always trump.

    There is no Sience with model airplanes only practical, emperical testing. I have laid out Numerous examples of my ability to prove the accepted facts wrong, modelers around the world are currently thankfull. Sience like, spiral slip stream and Touque effect or p-effect is only an excuse for a poorly designed airplane ,usually from knowledge learned from a poorly trimmed airplane. they have almost NO Effect on Model aircraft but they get 90% of the blame.

    The fact that I have debunked 90% of them only gets me greif from guys you can`t do it themselfs, and hang on to the sience as an excuse as to why it can`t be done.

    I`m not sure how I got pulled into the Rabbit hole again , I guess I need to go back to building LOL

    BTW Dick,I agree with your statement on Density altitude. Brett and I will be flying with Andrew (may be Chip Can come along) in your neck of the woods with the new bipe for SA for prop and set up testing ,I look forward to meeting you.
    We had the opportunity to fly in Culumbia at 9000 ft the YS was barley affected But we sure felt the effect on Lift

    Bryan

    Hebert competition designs \"Team\" YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  14. #89

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hard for me to discuss Science with someone who can't even spell it.

    Bryan, good luck to you and Brett! I know your hard work allows you to develop great flying models. I do respect that part of what you do.
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  15. #90
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Brian,

    That is Wolfgang Matt's personal plane used in the 2010 Euros, please don't tell me he does not know what he is doing, and the motor is modified for him that is why it is WM LE, you can't get that motor in a store, and it has some improvements, but I do now is no the best on the bottom torque, the Latest New has way more, it is just I like the Ys better as I do not need to experiment and change motors and brands, I know what I am geeting into....

    It is not just a label....

    I remember when Chip said Tuny at the worlds "for 34 seconds I tought about going back to YS" it was very funny, it had a different sense at the time, not what is going on here. I would really like to see Chip flying a new design with a YS, if that happens his flight report will be the most anticipated one for sure.

    I think probably everybody should try to chillout a little bit. The war between electric against YS will be there as long as both exist anyway, and will not be won while the previous statement stands.

    The world championships in SA will tell for sure what the tendencies are.....



  16. #91

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: apereira

    Brian,

    That is Wolfgang Matt's personal plane used in the 2010 Euros, please don't tell me he does not know what he is doing, and the motor is modified for him that is why it is WM LE, you can't get that motor in a store, and it has some improvements.

    It is not just a label....

    I remember when Chip said Tuny at the worlds ''for 34 seconds I tought about going back to YS'' it was very funny, it had a different sense at the time, not what is going on here. I would really like to see Chip flying a new design with a YS, if that happens his flight report will be the most anticipated one for sure.

    Hi,
    I was just kidding about the sticky label - in my haste I forgot the smiley.
    I believe you yourself said it had 'nothing or inexistent' low end ,,, .
    Yes all new designs are good as they add to the fun of the party.

    Brian

  17. #92
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hey Brian,

    I did not take it bad, that is why I also said about chilling, jeje, this is a hobby for most of us, we should never go down that bad on arguments anyway. You ansewred too fast!! I was editing my post

    Cheers!

    Alejandro

  18. #93

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    LOL Yea there is that! Dick learned me how to spell Skeptical years ago Now I know how to spell Science! YAY!!

    I think I sniffed too much glow fuel over the years,
    It still don`t mean I don`t know what I`m talking about
    BTW you allways use the work THEN instead of THAN But I never call you on it, I know what your saying and i don`t think your stupid! LOL

    Thanks for the wishes we will do our best as always

    Bryan
    Hebert competition designs \"Team\" YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  19. #94

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Bryan, there are enough errors in grammar and spelling in just this last post to make a grade school teacher cry. But I know English is a second language for you. After all you are flyncajun!
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  20. #95

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Hebert competition designs \"Team\" YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  21. #96
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: TonyF

    Bryan, there are enough errors in grammar and spelling in just this last post to make a grade school teacher cry. But I know English is a second language for you. After all you are flyncajun!
    Damn...where the hell is that popcorn eating deer when you need it? You boys are worth a lot of chuckles and laffs. I needed that this morning!! Thank you'se!
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  22. #97

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Wings don't produce any lift in the up and down lines???? let me ask you something; does your wings have a on-off switch??? no, they ALWAYS generates lift


    I KNOW for a fact that Bryan is right. if you guys don't want to try, good.

    about flying in altitudes, a biplane is way better, you want the big wings up here.

  23. #98

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Ys makes sound and smoke, so it's instantly better than electric
    Alex-D8

  24. #99

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: Malydilnar

    Ys makes sound and smoke, so it's instantly better than electric
    I've had an E setup that made smoke before. So so much for that argument!!! Great logic!!!
    This should be in one of those animated Youtube video's.
    Mike Mueller
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  25. #100

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    tuny, yes they do. It's called what angle of attack are they at? If they are at the zero lift AOA then they are not producing lift. Please, get a kindergarten book on why airplanes fly. Maybe it will be called, "See Spot Fly". "Fly Spot Fly".
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran


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