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  1. #126

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Dick we can agree on that,,
    Bryan
    CKAero.net Team YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  2. #127

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite

    Sorry but this is basic aerodynamics here. A wing requires angle of attack to produce lift, and in producing lift, creates INDUCED drag. General airframe drag is parasitic drag. They are VERY different things. Without angle of attack as in a purely vertical line, either up or down, the wing is NOT generating lift. If it were, the vertical line could not be maintained at all, as there is no weight for that lift to counteract, such as in level flight.

    Let's get serious for a moment and toss them a bone and admit there is some induced lift (and therefore some induced drag) required in downlines if we are correcting for wind. This may require a positive or negative AOA depending on which way the plane is facing. The wind is almost never in the plane of the maneuver so here is my question. Is it a downgrade to rotate the airplane so the wind and the required lift is in the airplane's pitch plane during a downline? I believe the book says judge the flight path not the attitude but obviously it would be a different maneuver in a 90 degree crosswind. So what's the answer? Use elevator and rudder and keep the wings perpendicular to the plane of the maneuver?

    Jim O

  3. #128
    apereira's Avatar
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Jim,

    There is no downgrade for that, input depends on the technique and will vary as the airplane is going up or down, for example in the last WC at Muncie in the last Preliminary round, I remember having the ailerons about 1/4 stick to the left while pulling on the elev the keep the line straight, and the nose of the airplane was about 60degres up, not 90, rudder input will tend to rise one of the wings and makes it more complicated to control, for me at least.

    Pretty much chances are the airplane will never have 0deg AOA on any vertical , as the winds are almost if not always horizontal, unless is 100% dead calm, then AOA will balance with the wings lift, as lift will be produced as long as the airfoil goes thru the wind or viceversa, no matter the attitude, I am sure you know all this, but have to write so it make sense.

    Regards

  4. #129

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    I have to admit a bit of a sore spot when the "knuckle draggin republican" gets bashed so I got hot a bit quick on that one. We all could use speelcheck(jk) every once in a while ....glad to interject some humor in this for you!!!

    once again,


    peace!!!
    power corrupts...
    absolute power corrupts absolutely

  5. #130
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    The need to have a small down-elevator mix at idle throttle is to compensate for the "lift" generated by small positive incidence angle (also the AOA) set for the main wings, on down lines.

    On up-lines, it is hard to observe the drift (to canopy) because of engine's down throttle angle. But I think the "lift" is still there.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  6. #131

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    ok, this will be an easy demonstration, who is going to let us take his airplane up verticaly with no wings just to prove it would not go straigt up??

    (its a joke!! but we all shoud agree that it wold be a cool demonstration)

  7. #132

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: tuny

    ok, this will be an easy demonstration, who is going to let us take his airplane up verticaly with no wings just to prove it would not go straigt up??

    (its a joke!! but we all shoud agree that it wold be a cool demonstration)
    Why not? How about rockets?

    Jim O

  8. #133
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    LOL
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  9. #134

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    nonstoprc,

    We need to remember that the stab. has strong effect also. I will guess that the stab. probably has stronger effect than the wings due to the lever action when going down. It start to get complicated but a free body diagram probably will help us a lot. I did free body diagrams many years ago in the engineering school. That was not related to airplanes. Probably, someone out the the rcu community could do one with plane flying level and one going straight up and down (with no wind). Then add the wind and drag effedt assuming that pilot wants to get a 10 going down and up hill. Again, this probably will help us to explain what is going on. We also need to add to this analysis the wing airfoil type and what is required to produce lift (and drag) in the particular wing airfoils we use in pattern. What about the effect of the prop and the motor in this free body diagram. In this evaluation we will need to estimate the relative value of all forces acting in the airplane and recognize which forces will really have effect. Well this looks too time consuming and complicated for me. I will prefer to expend this time flying.





    Vicente \"Vince\" Bortone

  10. #135

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: vbortone
    We need to remember that the stab. has strong effect also. I will guess that the stab. probably has stronger effect than the wings due to the lever action when going down.
    I'd bet money in a truely vertical line (up and down) on a calm day when the wing is producing zero lift with a typical design that incorporates a little engine down thrust, the angle of the airflow that the stab "sees" will be a bit different going up under power than coming down under idle due to the airflow from the prop.

    If the air were truely free streaming around my plane it wouldn't be the bottom of my left stab which get the oil residue on it..


  11. #136

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: apereira

    This thread is really going in the wrong direction..... I just wonder how did this thread got to this?
    As one that has been lurking, I'd like to answer this one.... I've read a bunch of stuff that I'd like to condense, perhaps paraphrase a bit.....

    "I know everything there is to know about airplanes because I USED to be somebody." Huh?
    "I know everything there is to know about model airplanes because I've worked where smart guys were" Osmosis? Libertarian
    "I know everything there is to know about model airplanes and if you don't believe me, you can ask me" Circular, Republican
    "You don't know anything about airplanes because your spelling/grammer/diction isn't perfect" I really LOVE that one! Shoot the messenger, kill the message, so very Democratic
    "I can make up facts more convincingly than anyone, it must be so" Nanner nanner, boo boo, Socialistic
    "Fixed gear have less drag than NO gear" (retracts retracted) WOW! This one defies any classification, just plain old dumb
    "listen to ME, I use aeronautical terms convincingly" Boring

    Folks, it seems simple to me..... listen to the guys that have current winning designs. They probably know what they are saying, regardless of how they say it, or how they learned it. It all boils down to that; who is designing planes that are winning contests today? Also, it matters who won contests last year and the year before. Five or ten years (even more) past are just that. Past. Great memories, but not relevant. AOA, downthrust, upline lift; nothing but smoke screen. I listen to the guys that design airplanes that win today. The rest is fluff. History, pride and ego.

    So now all of the wannabees can pile onto me, accusing me of disrespect, correcting my grammer/word choices/political affiliation/lack of having beat Hanno back in the day/halitosis or whatever. Me, I like glow power. Like. It is a subjective choice; I like the sound and I like flying more than eight minutes at a time. I also feel it performs a bit better in the wind, all things being equal. I like vanilla ice cream with fudge syrup, think that downthrust is weird (I mean, really; point the airplane one way and the motor a different direction? Really?) and vote exactly how I want to without once considering the drag coefficients of wings on up lines. My own personal airplane guru sets it up, and he's had his designs compete successfully in several WC's. Click 'Like' if you know who it is. That's all I need to know, it is enough.

    And I double dog dare anybody to disagree, logically, with a word of it. This thread has been like a train wreck; can't look away, but it is just awful.

    Brian


  12. #137

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Tuny, Alejandro, and Bryan I have known you guys for quite a while and although we have had differences in opiniouns I have always respected you. Please don't hold the rude comments that I read earlier in these posts against us here in the US. Most pattern flyers in this Country as well as world wide are great guys. The internet is a wonderful thing but like all great inventions it has its weak points. I am sure my grammer is not perfect, as well as my english but I hope that I am able to get my point across. These are things that work for me or ideas that I may be concidering. I am sure there are 1000 different ways to do this stuff and I hope that I am not insulting anyone, especially modelers of your stature.

    Sincerely

    Chip Hyde

  13. #138

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: Passport1

    Tuny, Alejandro, and Bryan I have known you guys for quite a while and although we have had differences in opiniouns I have always respected you. Please don't hold the rude comments that I read earlier in these posts against us here in the US. Most pattern flyers in this Country as well as world wide are great guys. The internet is a wonderful thing but like all great inventions it has its weak points. I am sure my grammer is not perfect, as well as my english but I hope that I am able to get my point across. These are things that work for me or ideas that I may be concidering. I am sure there are 1000 different ways to do this stuff and I hope that I am not insulting anyone, especially modelers of your stature.

    Sincerely

    Chip Hyde
    Chip, I tell everybody what I told you in Muncie..."I never count Chip out. He can turn it on in a New York second." Your talent is your best feature, but you've really shown a lot of people how be gracious in defeat (if one can call Team alternate a defeat). Keep up the good work, I love to watch you fly. Always have.

    Brian

  14. #139

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: protectedpilot


    ORIGINAL: Passport1

    Tuny, Alejandro, and Bryan I have known you guys for quite a while and although we have had differences in opiniouns I have always respected you. Please don't hold the rude comments that I read earlier in these posts against us here in the US. Most pattern flyers in this Country as well as world wide are great guys. The internet is a wonderful thing but like all great inventions it has its weak points. I am sure my grammer is not perfect, as well as my english but I hope that I am able to get my point across. These are things that work for me or ideas that I may be concidering. I am sure there are 1000 different ways to do this stuff and I hope that I am not insulting anyone, especially modelers of your stature.

    Sincerely

    Chip Hyde
    Chip, I tell everybody what I told you in Muncie...''I never count Chip out. He can turn it on in a New York second.'' Your talent is your best feature, but you've really shown a lot of people how be gracious in defeat (if one can call Team alternate a defeat). Keep up the good work, I love to watch you fly. Always have.

    Brian
    Brian,

    It wasn't always that way and for that I am sorry. I know now when I am outflown and the current US team did so. I wish them all the best and promise everyone I will be ready if needed. This trials was so awesome and really re kindled a spark.

    C

  15. #140

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    After all, it's been over a fifth of a century since the USA had an Individual Champion!
    [/quote]


    Ahhh you guys lol. You all told me Quique won 2007. I think thats true but I am honored Tony that you still remember me in that way.

    C

  16. #141

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Now the beat down begins.

    I stand by the fact that what I have presented is correct in the science. Not everyone here can say that.

    Go back and read what Bryan Hebert has posted. He has been extremely insulting to me and anyone else who in the slightest disagrees with him. Some others the same. I was only trying to correct the errors and misconceptions about technical items posted here.

    Now Brian Clemmons piles on. Brian, you have twisted what I have posted here into something you "think" I have posted and then just outright lied about it. Shame on you.

    This thread started with congratulations to the winner and the Team and was diverted by Bryan talking up his model and powerplant and then claiming that everyone serious about F3A is going to have to switch or lose. I wasn't the first to start to object to that claim, but apparently I got the most attention. I also know that some have posted incorrect information to divert away from the facts. Shame on them too.

    I agree. Go by what the designers of the winning models are doing. And at this years Nats it was a large fuselage monoplane with fixed gear powered by an electric motor. 'nuff said.
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  17. #142

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    You got me there. I forgot about Quique. I stand corrected. My apologies to Quique. I was just thinking about the last time you won the F3A WC. Still a great accomplishment. But according to Brian Clemmons it's no longer relevant. Sorry!
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  18. #143

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: TonyF

    Now the beat down begins.

    I stand by the fact that what I have presented is correct in the science. Not everyone here can say that.

    Go back and read what Bryan Hebert has posted. He has been extremely insulting to me and anyone else who in the slightest disagrees with him. Some others the same. I was only trying to correct the errors and misconceptions about technical items posted here.

    Now Brian Clemmons piles on. Brian, you have twisted what I have posted here into something you ''think'' I have posted and then just outright lied about it. Shame on you.

    This thread started with congratulations to the winner and the Team and was diverted by Bryan talking up his model and powerplant and then claiming that everyone serious about F3A is going to have to switch or lose. I wasn't the first to start to object to that claim, but apparently I got the most attention. I also know that some have posted incorrect information to divert away from the facts. Shame on them too.

    I agree. Go by what the designers of the winning models are doing. And at this years Nats it was a large fuselage monoplane powered by an electric motor. 'nuff said.

    Tony, I don't think I ever mentioned your name. Matter of fact, I know I didn't. Didn't mention any name at all, for that matter. Nor can you point to any statement of mine which can be construed as a 'lie'. I made not one single assertation of fact, purposely. Science? Dubious. Emperical data is probably best. That's why I listen to the guys that actually design airplanes, which win, currently. And I DID major in Engineering. It drives me nuts trying to apply it to models. That has never worked for me. Probably has something to do with Reynold's numbers, but I can't say.

    I also minored in Ancient Lit, so I do know how to present my words more or less appropriately. Please don't select generic statements of opinion and apply them where you will in any manner you choose and then hold me accountable for it. For what it is worth, the 'winners' flew an electric monoplane, an electric biplane, and an IC biplane. I was actually there. Front row seat, even. Shame on me? No, shame on you for acting the bully by playing at being a victim. Tony, you're a great pilot with an admirable rich history and have no need to push people around here. Bryan was happy about the finish Brett had using his design. Why tear that down? Can you let a fellow have a good day, and an opinion about IC without resorting to making claims you have been insulted? It is ok to have differing opinions, there is nothing sinister here. We all share our views and our experiences, (some of us don't actually fly pattern; not that it impedes the flow of opinion) hopefully to our collective betterment.

    I, too, FEEL that IC engines will make somewhat of a comeback, to a certain extent due to the success Brett had with Bryan's design. We will know the truth next summer. I still like cake more than pie, biplanes more than monoplanes and have yet to denigrate any particular individuals opinion in this thread, although I have been drawn into a statement of fact or two. Pray do not tempt me further

    Brian


  19. #144

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER


    ORIGINAL: TonyF

    You got me there. I forgot about Quique. I stand corrected. My apologies to Quique. I was just thinking about the last time you won the F3A WC. Still a great accomplishment. But according to Brian Clemmons it's no longer relevant. Sorry!
    Not sure how, or even the necessity for, my name being included here. Ah, well. Still, it brings to mind, Chip has quite a few WC's medal from not only individual accomplishments, but Team medals as well. Some are even recent. I'll bet that Individual gold has the best memories, though The Gold Team medal in 1999 is another I recall fairly well. I have a picture of that Team on my wall. You've given us more than one good memory, Chip!

    Brian

  20. #145

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Brian,

    I have several time praised both Brett and Bryan for the great accomplishment of making the team. The only things I have objected to is the assertion that electric is on the way out and YS will soon be the only way to go. And then the errors in the understanding of how things actually work. Never said that Bryan was wrong with where he eventually got, just that he was wrong in how he thinks he got there.

    Now here is what you posted. You can claim you used no names but that is just being sly. Everyone knows who you took aim.

    "I know everything there is to know about airplanes because I USED to be somebody." Huh?

    When did I ever say that? I didn't, so that's not true.

    "I know everything there is to know about model airplanes because I've worked where smart guys were" Osmosis? Libertarian

    Obviously you are referring to my story about what happened when I was at NASA. I actually thought I was showing how I used incorrect terms and was corrected by a proper engineer. I guess it was too subtle. I was trying to show that as modelers we often think we know what we're doing, and after a lot of trial and error we end up in the right place. But a little education, which I lacked at the time, can go a long way to making that trip a little shorter.

    "I know everything there is to know about model airplanes and if you don't believe me, you can ask me" Circular, Republican

    Now I guess that one might actually be referring to Bryan. If not, then it's me and I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Never said it.

    "You don't know anything about airplanes because your spelling/grammer/diction isn't perfect" I really LOVE that one! Shoot the messenger, kill the message, so very Democratic

    I guess I could be guilty there, but all the misspellings do come across poorly. Particularly when the poster is constantly saying that science, ie knowledge, has no benefit.

    "I can make up facts more convincingly than anyone, it must be so" Nanner nanner, boo boo, Socialistic

    Guess that one could apply to everyone who posted here. But I haven't made any facts up.

    "Fixed gear have less drag than NO gear" (retracts retracted) WOW! This one defies any classification, just plain old dumb

    Now this one is where Bryan really got insulting and now you are piling on. You went ahead and did some more creative paraphrasing to twist what I said. I was there when the switch was made. I've even seen some actual data. It has been shown in many types of models and in full scale. A properly designed fixed gear will be less drag then poorly done retracts. Unless the holes are covered by tight fitting doors or the wheels go in to close fitting wells that have the wheel flush to the surface of the wing, it will be more drag. At NASA I worked for a while with the person who at the time designed and built a man carrying airplane that had the lowest flat plate drag profile. It had a very well designed fixed gear. I talked with him at length.

    "listen to ME, I use aeronautical terms convincingly" Boring

    Sounds like don't confuse me with the facts. Which one is right?

    It might be stretching to say that what you did here was lying. But it's not stretching to say a lot was just not true.

    I've had the benefit of designing, building and flying a lot of research models that carried sophisticated data systems that recorded a lot of actual flight data. The first time I flew one with a system like that, before the engineers downloaded the data, they'd come over and ask what did I do and how did it react. So many times what I thought I did and what I thought the model did was just not what the data showed had actually happened. That told me that I'd rather believe data then my assumptions. And whatever data and actual science and knowledge that can be applied to our sport I will use. But very little in flying pattern is objective. It's all based on subjective viewpoints and we all have different opinions on what looks right. But in pattern, if it looks better, it is better. Whether it actually is or not.
    TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
    2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

  21. #146

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    I don't know how many people are working on F3A designs using wind tunnel & other experiments & then come up with a design. I am not saying about anyone here, but i never heard people do intense research on F3A. I know there are many who are very interested in doing this.
    I will say it only once Yak 54 the best aerobatic plane ever made.

  22. #147

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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    ORIGINAL: highfly3D

    I don't know how many people are working on F3A designs using wind tunnel & other experiments & then come up with a design. I am not saying about anyone here, but i never heard people do intense research on F3A. I know there are many who are very interested in doing this.
    Interesting question. Please a few follow-on questions for the group in the know: Are some of today's newer pattern models a product of the designer setting some design goals with parameters, running calculations to optimize those parameters using available aerodynamic formulae and software, then producing the design with CAD/CAM technology from prototype through finished product (in Asia perhaps)? Any need for wind tunnel testing given that many pattern aircraft are variations on a few well-known and loved forms? And what actually is the level of rigor outside of an informed, trial-and-error, I think I'll try this design process described by the most successful modelers whose work is state-of-the-art? Alot of 20th century technolgy enriching our lives today came from both art and science:Aeronautic jargon aside, what does the state-of-the-science design process look like?

    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  23. #148

    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    ORIGINAL: danamania

    ORIGINAL: highfly3D

    I don't know how many people are working on F3A designs using wind tunnel & other experiments & then come up with a design. I am not saying about anyone here, but i never heard people do intense research on F3A. I know there are many who are very interested in doing this.
    Interesting question. Please a few follow-on questions for the group in the know: Are some of today's newer pattern models a product of the designer setting some design goals with parameters, running calculations to optimize those parameters using available aerodynamic formulae and software, then producing the design with CAD/CAM technology from prototype through finished product (in Asia perhaps)? Any need for wind tunnel testing given that many pattern aircraft are variations on a few well-known and loved forms? And what actually is the level of rigor outside of an informed, trial-and-error, I think I'll try this design process described by the most successful modelers whose work is state-of-the-art? A*lot of 20th century technolgy enriching our lives today came from both art and science:*Aeronautic jargon aside, what does the state-of-the-science design process look like?

    Very similar to what the Wright brothers saw.
    Ryan Smith

    Team JR | Thunder Power RC
    F3A Unlimited | Castle Creations

  24. #149
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Using a wind tunnel which can actually gather data is not the same as many see with the little smoke trail going through the model, but actually it will cost an immense amount of money just to get the data, the problem is how to interpret the data to make it usable for F3A, so in short is a cost which will never be compensated on sales, just the molds can go up to $10000 a piece, to develop a jet for example it is around $250K total.

    The designers and expert pilot experience can bring a great model like it was actually engineered at a reasonable cost, and that will not change as long as the research make this type of design economically unobtainable.

  25. #150
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    RE: F3A Results - SPOILER

    Chip,

    Thanks for your words, luckily we know too many good people in the US and around the world to blame a country for a very few people.

    This is my hobby, and to must of us, but some make a living out of it, which I will love to do,but I got in a different professional direction, this forums are part of the hobby and probably the only place on the day to day life we can talk about what is our passion, and this has to be fun, but,

    If I ever need to pull my degrees to prove I am right, I will retire from the forum

    If I ever need to talk politics in a forum, I will retire from the same.

    My best to you

    Alejandro


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