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Electric Vs Engine.

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Old 08-02-2012, 11:33 PM
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Default Electric Vs Engine.

Hi,

The reason to start this thread is my simple question to you all with regards to fly F3A FAI class which is really better Electric or Glow. Hope to get many more answers here. I personally have flow small electric planes but never F3A size plane.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:13 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

Only you can answer which is better for yourself; either choice is very capable. As for which is more popular, please see the Contestant Equipment List posted at nsrca.us/index.php/nats2012
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:10 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

The Summer Olympics are on and an impressive record was set. I recall reading in an interview recently that he said he once practiced, was in the pool, everyday for a 5 year stretch! I was inspired by that and believe that the top pilots who win at the FAI level also practice everyday, or nearly daily. Perhaps the best motor is the one that is reliable to fly the schedule 6 times a day, 6 days a week? Just imagine trying to squeeze in a few flights after work with a motor that does not perform consistently, how is that going to work? Any time lost to tuning or trimming detracts from the practice and time cannot be gotten back. Consistent performance becomes basic at that level of effort, IC or electric. It's a man and machine thing and both have to work consistently to achieve that level of performance. The guys who get glow to that level of consistent performance amaze me. 

That said, there have been hundreds of times that I have been at a flying field and completed 4 or more electric flights while a glow motor was either starting up or having mixtures set. This is not the case at the top, but clearly a challenge for many aspiring pilots who are losing flight time to tuning. We will all be tuning our set-ups as we progress in pattern skills, but I think the balance of time spent flying rather than tuning or trimming is also key.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: danamania

The Summer Olympics are on and an impressive record was set. I recall reading in an interview recently that he said he once practiced, was in the pool, everyday for a 5 year stretch! I was inspired by that and believe that the top pilots who win at the FAI level also practice everyday, or nearly daily. Perhaps the best motor is the one that is reliable to fly the schedule 6 times a day, 6 days a week? Just imagine trying to squeeze in a few flights after work with a motor that does not perform consistently, how is that going to work? Any time lost to tuning or trimming detracts from the practice and time cannot be gotten back. Consistent performance becomes basic at that level of effort, IC or electric. It's a man and machine thing and both have to work consistently to achieve that level of performance. The guys who get glow to that level of consistent performance amaze me.

That said, there have been hundreds of times that I have been at a flying field and completed 4 or more electric flights while a glow motor was either starting up or having mixtures set. This is not the case at the top, but clearly a challenge for many aspiring pilots who are losing flight time to tuning. We will all be tuning our set-ups as we progress in pattern skills, but I think the balance of time spent flying rather than tuning or trimming is also key.
Well stated Dana
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: highfly3D

Hi,

The reason to start this thread is my simple question to you all with regards to fly F3A FAI class which is really better Electric or Glow. Hope to get many more answers here. I personally have flow small electric planes but never F3A size plane.
Go electric.

Or you can go with YS first, and then go electric.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:08 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

Most common mistake I see that people are doing with Glow (YS) is they don't know how to leave the thing alone. It does not take a 170 or 175 peeked to the N'th degree to get through these patterns.
Get them set and leave them alone.. A properly tuned YS should get 8 to 12 cases of fuel before needing a rebuild.

Gary
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:23 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

It all depends, for example some electrics are having problems if it is hot or windy, that happened in the Nats and on the Europeans(ongoing) on a windy day, one of the spanish pilots ran out of battery missing the las two manouvers on one P round, most will think he does not know how to fly, but he is in the semi finals, so can't be bad, but the important detail is any electric is good enough to fly any schedulle, it is just a matter of battery capacity for the intended flight agains the airplane weight to be legal. As any airplane over 11Lbs can't be considered competitive.

I am very happy with both electric an YS, but preffer YS, extremely reliable engine and there is nothing that compares to the power of the 175 in my opninion, but there is a opinion for everyone, including those who do not compete.

It will be interesting to see what happens today and tomorrow in the EC, I am sure for South Africa there will be new batteries as they are struggling now in certain conditions, and not knowing if a pilot can finish the new Unknowns in a hot/windy day cannot be good, but again, it depends on many factors, and I ran out ouf batteries only once, and not shure why yet(but I was setting the airplane), but so far, three flame outs and one single mechanical problem in five years is pretty good for my YS's.

Another example is CPLR said F3A is to be flown with IC engines, as well as Mayr is doing the change, heard of some top pilots who think about going YS again, but time will tell.

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Old 08-03-2012, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

You guys still run 30% with the 175's?
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:09 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

I agree with apiera and Gary. They BOTH work. They both work well, but they both have their differences. What you can't do is compare a cheap electric setup to a YS or a cheap glow setup to a top end electric. To do either right, it will cost you. The key to a YS is what Gary said. Get it right and don't touch it. Sometimes it may sound slightly different, but leave it alone. Once it warms up it will be fine. If something major changes, don't chase the needles. It is trying to tell you something.

Bottom line is they both work well, but just like anything else designed for performance, they will both have their problems.

Arch
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:14 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

You can run 30%, but with 23% oil, you should not use it with low oil, but the 175 is designed to be used with 25%, but the oil content is 18%, so in my opinion both work the same as there is really not much difference between them.

One good thing on the 175 is that is so ridiculously powerfull you can fly with even less nitro, I think the engine will outperform almost all other engines with 15% nitro. This lowers the operating cost and it has the newest upgrades in the pump and it is the easiest to set so far.

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Old 08-03-2012, 07:49 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

would it be possible to fly the YS with only 15% nitro?? just asking..
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Yes,

Actually from 0 to 25% Nitro and from 10 (not as per the manual as the engine will not last the same) to 23% synthetic oil.

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Old 08-03-2012, 03:18 PM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: highfly3D

would it be possible to fly the YS with only 15% nitro?? just asking..
It depends on which YS you're talking about. For the 170/ 175 series, yes. But I'll suggest using higher nitro for better cooling & transition on the older one - the 140 FZ & L.

Adrian
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.



Me and my dad have identical biplanes, one is electric and the other ys...

When its calm, my 4150gram electric biplane is amazing. Its powered my a neu inrunner (cant remmember the specs) and Iuse hobby king 5000batteries.

When it gets windier, my dads ys 175cdi powered biplane is a breeze to fly. Its alsovery goodwhen its calm.

So my conclusion is, is that ys is better, especially the new 175, which has 150 flights so far and is incredibly reliable. In calm conditions, the electric biplane is just 1% better. The elctric biplane was just an experiment, but when we make our composite biplane for next year I'll have mine run a ys.I'm missing the ys growl when I'm flying my electric...

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Old 08-09-2012, 12:06 AM
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It never seizes to amaze me that all the electric blokes are trying every way they can to convert everyone to electric power............why is it so
It just so happens that in my club we have two young girls that fly ....... and yes both electric.I asked one of them one day why she didnt use glow and her reply was that she didnt understand the complexity of an internal combustion engine and that the fuel didnt agree with her hand cream and nail polish.

I guess now days the young seek instant glorification with minimum effort hence the electric mentality.

Personally I find it a lot more satisfying getting my 4 stroke to run like a sawing machine......which it does......yes it does take a bit of effort but it is what makes this hobby so enjoyable.Lets not forget why we got into this hobby......we all like to tinker in our workshops.
I fly Airbus 320 for living and trust me there is nothing more exciting than getting out to the flying field...... starting that 4 stroke and trying to fly a perfect loop

regards

Mavros




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Old 08-09-2012, 02:30 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

I'd wager the vast majority of guys flying electric have a ys background. Me, I could care less which someone runs.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:24 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

Electric power is the reason I returned to the hobby as adult. Given the amount that I have spent in the past 3 years, EP must be good for the hobby!

I started flying contests last season, a few IMAC basic (didn't suit me), and a few pattern meets. This year I decided to stick just to Pattern. EVERY contest I have been to in these past 2 years has had at least one IC deadstick per contest, and at least two of those this season alone resulted in extensive damage to the model (vs. no electric deadsticks). These were not newcomers to the sport, like me, but experienced, seasoned pattern flyers who are competitive. One fellow I know has made the decision to come over to the dark side and try electric. I guess that is an easier move to make when the glow bird is grounded for rebuild. Over the course of these same 8 contests to date, I have not met or heard of a single pilot talking about going back to YS. True this is anecdote - and a sample of convenience with no statistical power, no doubt - but my observation from within my  parts of D1 is that the move FROM YS to electric is still occuring, albeit at a glacial pace.  So much for this limited data LOL!

Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.

Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started.  Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air.  True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.
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Old 08-09-2012, 08:57 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: danamania

div>

Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.

Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.
"SLIMERS" leave me cold too. But some guys just love the smell of nitro in the morning and the heavy smoke trail in the air...

I must say I've been having a ball with my gassies. The latest, the OS33GT, is the best of the lot easily performing as well on the same props as the YS170 and 175 do. Except, it's cheap petrol which it sips rather than guzzle it down. I fly with an 8oz tank in my plane and get 32 Masters maneuvers out of a tankful, nearly two whole schedules per flight. In addition, simple starts and practically no maintenance, signatures both of present day gasoline power

Here's the rub...I don't fly as well as I used so folks see it and don't really take it seriously because of my flying stinking up the place. But this is a serious powerplant for Pattern planes and deserves more than just passing consideration.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:28 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: MTK


Quote:
ORIGINAL: danamania

div>

Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.

Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.
''SLIMERS'' leave me cold too. But some guys just love the smell of nitro in the morning and the heavy smoke trail in the air...

I must say I've been having a ball with my gassies. The latest, the OS33GT, is the best of the lot easily performing as well on the same props as the YS170 and 175 do. Except, it's cheap petrol which it sips rather than guzzle it down. I fly with an 8oz tank in my plane and get 32 Masters maneuvers out of a tankful, nearly two whole schedules per flight. In addition, simple starts and practically no maintenance, signatures both of present day gasoline power

Here's the rub...I don't fly as well as I used so folks see it and don't really take it seriously because of my flying stinking up the place. But this is a serious powerplant for Pattern planes and deserves more than just passing consideration.
Hi Matt,
The inverse of the 'rub' is as relevant.
By this I mean if AJ had used it to win your Nat's it would be taken very seriously.
It takes a big effort to go an untraveled road.
There are innovators, some of who do it just to see what's what, and there are followers.
How often is CPLR wheeled out as the final and or the ultimate affirmation that YS is best.
I hope hope he doesn't desert his flock any time soon.

Brian

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Old 08-09-2012, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

My reasoning for flying electric is simple. Firstly, I have an electric field 10 minutes from my house. To get to an IC friendly field, I have at least a 40 minute drive. Additionally, I don't have to clean up the mess. Lack of vibration means I'm beating up my airframe and servos less even when using Merle Hyde's amazing mounts. Simplicity of operation (ease of use, and less support equipment). Generally I can take the airplane, transmitter, and battery packs to the field and not need anything else. Reliability is hard to match. I know people have had excellent results with YS, but I feel electrics are much easier to understand and operate. Cost is also a factor. Nitro is never coming down in price again. It's expensive to manufacture and isn't environmentally friendly, which only raises prices due to HazMat fees, transport costs, etc. Batteries will only get cheaper in the long run. And quite honestly, I don't like the sound of the engines anymore. I MUCH prefer the quiet hum of electrics.
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

During the summer months when there is light after work, I can challenge myself to get out to the airfield for a few practice flights. I have been doing this every day, to every other weekday for the last two months straight. The "convenience" of electric makes this possible for me. The practice make it possible to compete AND progress (or at least maintain newly learned skills long enough to stick). The extra practice time is needed to learn the Intermediate schedule while continuing to rehearse the Sportsman one I can fly in a contest today (and those 2 darn loops LOL).  I have nothing against IC, but the convenience of electric is an instrumental part of the whole pattern competition effort that is hard to separate out at this point. Last night I got in 3 flights between a DLE dead stick and the arrival of another gasser & sunset. Not pattern planes true, but if it took any more time & effort, practicing after work would not be practical. We might not disparage convenience, or relegate that to the fairer pilots, if convenience is viewed as a competitive advantage. No reason to come over to the dark side really, just the way we roll after work. Cheers!
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: serious power

Hi Matt,
The inverse of the 'rub' is as relevant.
By this I mean if AJ had used it to win your Nat's it would be taken very seriously.
It takes a big effort to go an untraveled road.
There are innovators, some of who do it just to see what's what, and there are followers.
How often is CPLR wheeled out as the final and or the ultimate affirmation that YS is best.
I hope hope he doesn't desert his flock any time soon.

Brian

Brian
Yup...Been around this game well over 40 years and know how it's played. I'll wait until one of my grandchildren get good enough with my stuff to kick anyone's booty. But if they don't, so what? Very very few have ever made a living off toy planes...LOL!
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:46 PM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

Matt,

I followed the old thread on the Syssa 180, where you were adapting that engine to pattern. Understand that Syssa is coming out with an improved version that addresses some of the issues, relative to pattern, that were identified. That aside, how does the 33 GT perform as a pattern engine? Thanks

John
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: F-4

Matt,

I followed the old thread on the Syssa 180, where you were adapting that engine to pattern. Understand that Syssa is coming out with an improved version that addresses some of the issues, relative to pattern, that were identified. That aside, how does the 33 GT perform as a pattern engine? Thanks

John
It's a 2 stroke engine that benefits from a pipe. It is the very best 2 stroke powerplant for pattern, bar none. It has similar power to the defacto standard YS 4 strokes, both the 170 and 175, turning the same props at very comparable RPM. The mid range tork is the best of any 2 stroke I have ever tested, gas or glow, in this size, for pattern use. Again, my benchmark is the venerable YS 4 stroke and this 2 stroke has the necessary beans. Must use a pipe. I've said this a bunch of times in the past in various threads. Let me recommend that you get one and see for yourself.

The only thing missing is the rear exhaust porting which I hope to see soon. But I'd bet OS will jack the price up too, just as DLE did with their 35cc RA

Edit: I have also used the DLE55 for pattern and this is, by far, the best powerplant I have ever used or tried in a pattern plane. But it also has 60% greater displacement and 20% greater weight (at least my lightened version has that weight). It should not be confused with and be considered in the 30cc class of powerplants tho
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:32 AM
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Default RE: Electric Vs Engine.

Thanks, Matt. Appreciate your comments.

John
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