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CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

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Old 11-07-2012, 07:04 AM
  #26
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


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ORIGINAL: Dean Pappas
Also, E-power is even more of a boon to CL Stunt than it is to pattern.
Chip, get rid of that slimer, electrify the SV and discover the benefits of a backwards prop!

take care All,
Dean Pappas
Some of you guys may have missed this little (really big actually) golden nugget Dean gave you. Turning a single bladed prop in the opposite direction in Stunt has significant benefits. While Dean and I hadsome small discussion on the concept some years ago now, a guy from Japan I think, actually was doing it with his e-stunter.

One can do that with a slimer or small gassie but it requires a different engine design. Electric makes this trully elementary

It's one reason a contra (as is currently being flown in Pattern) may not provide much benefit in Stunt circles in its present design format
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

I've gathered that the "wrong way" props help at certain tough corners where a "right way" prop is working against you.

To me, the physical connection to the aircraft is a major cool thing about C/L.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:40 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Chip ,I love that plane!
Dean has been promising me ...to send a well broke in engine for a stunt ship for three years now LOL
I guess I`m going to have to go visit him and get it ,,and.. a Patriot 3d he bought from me and never finished ,,,I have guys looking to buy those airplanes again LOL

How bout a 3day Pattern, Stunt contest in d-6
Bryan
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


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ORIGINAL: perttime

I've gathered that the ''wrong way'' props help at certain tough corners where a ''right way'' prop is working against you.

To me, the physical connection to the aircraft is a major cool thing about C/L.

You are absolutely correct ! Love your avitar BTW. Is that the 109R ?
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Chip
What are the red lines on your stab? Can you give us a close up picture?
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Great story, Chip.

People would do their modeling some good by trying things outside their 'comfort zone' sometimes. I've flown some C/L Stunt in the past and it's loads of fun. Same with free flight, sailplanes, helis, and pretty much anything I can get my hands on.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:13 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


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ORIGINAL: rootbeard

Chip
What are the red lines on your stab? Can you give us a close up picture?
The red lines are fences on the stab to help straighten the air over the elev. Did they make a difference, all I can say is the day I added them I was able to put an additional 3/4 ounce of tail weight and it really came to life. Hitting the 5 foot mark in the wing over while having a unbelievably solid feel upside down was what I noticed the most. Bob is now waiting for the report on what the sfg's on the wing do. Again in pattern I feel it helps in the wind against turbulance and that is something you can see very easily so close to the ground. also they should help line tension overhead. We will see I am going to hold off on more changes until I get someone better then me to evaluate it both with and without the stab fences and then go from there. If you notice on the rudder the flare on just the right side was the first thing I tried. Immediately it smoothed out the plane in yaw and practially elimited any shimmying from side to side.

As for the electric turning the opposite direction it is true that pulls the plane to the outside of the circle however it is still not a perfect solution. The line tension defiantly becomes less on outside corners and more on insides. Kieth's solution to this was to mechanically hook the rudder to the elevator in order to cancel that out. This does work very well but only a few guys could probably ever make it work like he does. (Again he is a master builder with a ten pound brain) So this brings me to the inrunner with a gear box. I believe we will see a much more constant speed when the nose is pointed down plus it will really help tame the whipping in the wind. Brakes arent really an option so we need the gearbox to act like a valve train so to speak. Similiar to a fourstroke. None of this is proven yet but its not far off as Steve is getti ng a couple motors out to the appropriate guys that can give him some good feedback. So we shall see.

Now the contra. It is going to be even better when it comes to constant speed due to the second disc and also using 2 (3) blade props. In theory it should make the planes fly very neutral. Meaning inside and outside corners are equal. Sure it will require a little right thrust but that is fine seeing how it will never change. Who knows though none of this will be an advantage, but its sure going to be cool trying it out. I am really excited about all the interest and responses this is great. I am not sure the pattern community is ready for a combo yet Bryan but for sure we will have several planes for people to try out at our March contest.

More later

C
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:12 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Hi Chip,

As a Contra flyer and ex CL guy (40+ years since I held a handle) I'm interested in your experiments. You mentioned rigging the rudder to elevator to help line tension on the outsides and I'm assuming you have seen a purely mechanical solution. Of course with electrics powering the plane it would be easy to arrange a powerful mini/micro servo to move the rudder and control it via one of the tiny servo tester boards off Ebay linked to the bellcrank. Should make for an easy and adjustable setup and be pretty light.

Malcolm
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:46 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Gungadin
Love your avitar BTW. Is that the 109R ?
Nope. But the idea is not too far off...
It is a What-If development on the "[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier-Heston_Racer]Napier-Heston Racer[/link]". I call it Heston Dragon. Here's a slightly larger picture:



It is also a piece of What-If history where Hitler fell before he had time to give the swastika a bad name.

More in my [link=http://perttime.deviantart.com/gallery/]DeviantArt gallery[/link].
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Al Rabe came up with the "wiggly rudder" idea in the 60's. He uses external horns so adjustment is easy and so is construction. Keith's is all internal and has a flat board as a cam to program the movements. The idea is to negate the effects of GP when using a single directional prop. Al designed semi-scale stunt ships with tall fuse dimensions and dihedral wings and smallish wing areas compared to the overall dimension of the fuselage and this combined with large propellers (.60 with 13-14 inch when everyone else was using a .40 with 10-11) made GP a noticeable issue. I've never used it, on my models it never seemed a huge issue because my "plank" designs were much more traditional so stepping in or out during certain corners was all it took to maintain line tension.
And: Looks like the Finnish insignia to me. Always loved the Napier Heston Racer, wish someone would find a couple of dozen Napier Sabre's in a barn!
Chris...
(Native American Indian)
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Hello Chip,

I am really glad to see you are getting into stunt. I have read about you and your accomplishments for years. I cant wait to see what you can do in stunt.

The wiggle rudder used for outside corners is setup with a control horn off the bottom of the elevator so there is an amount of right thrust when down input is used. When up input it used the rudder goes neutral. That's the real beauty of it right there. If you have it give thrust in both inputs you actually create issues on the inside corner. Pretty slick huh? I ran one for a while when I was using 14x6 2blade bollys on a Saito 56. It was a big help with that diameter. But once I went smaller in diameter I set it static. It all depends on what the plane wants really.

I will be real curious to see what your findings are with fences on the main wing. Since our planes are in a constant side slip going up wind and down wind in every maneuver trim can get real tricky. I ran some fences on all over a couple of planes as a test bed. While there were some advantages the trim issues offset the gains. Please let us know what you find.

Now the stab is a different story. I have been running stab plates for a long time and find they really keep things consistent when hitting 5' and tracking in the maneuvers round or square. See pic below you cant miss them.

Keep us posted on your developments.

Doug Moon
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:59 PM
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:12 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Rabe P-51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbzKY3Y3iLc
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:55 AM
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thats cool
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: stuntflyr
And: Looks like the Finnish insignia to me.
It is. The blue swastika and the lynx in the tail are "real". Aircraft serials is, of course, fictional.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:40 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dean Pappas

Aha!
We got another one ... Glad to see you enjoying Stunt, Chip.
I've always enjoyed a little Stunt between RC contests and it's gratifying to see others figure it out.

Even flying the best radios we've had available, I have always been painfully aware of the difference between even a great radio and the true immediate control that Stunt offers.
Also, E-power is even more of a boon to CL Stunt than it is to pattern.
Chip, get rid of that slimer, electrify the SV and discover the benefits of a backwards prop!

take care All,
Dean Pappas
Ah, yes, Dino ! Your recommendation to me was spot on.

The SV-11 ARF is a relatively easy convert to electric as there is plenty of room under the hood.

A Powerflight E-32, a 5S pack 2700- 3300, APC 13.4.5 or 5.5 EP, Hubin timer, CC Phoenix 45(out of production, but great) or Ice Lite 75 will get you there.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:03 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Been lurking RCU pattern forum for some time. Haven't been flying due to various time challenges. Thanks to Chip for starting this thread I got inspired. I just won this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:L:OC:US:3160

I built one in high school, back when a basic Kraft 4 channel cost over $2000 in today's dollars. R/C was not an option on a lawn mowing budget. I have a pattern plane collecting dust. Hopefully in the next year I will have time for both of them.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:55 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Hello Chip,
Do you have any you tube clips of you flying your new stunt plane?
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:03 AM
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ORIGINAL: matt13

Hello Chip,
Do you have any you tube clips of you flying your new stunt plane?
Sorry its been a while since I have replied. I do not have any videos yet but I was thinking about it. I have gone to all electric now and modified the Shark Finder a little and it turned into a really great flying plane. Actually my friend crashed it due to a line coming unconnected and then gave it to me. 4 Hours later it was a tail dragger and back in the air with no signs of the crash. I did change the name from Shark Finder to Stud Finder since I had to rebuild it a little.

I am just getting ready to head out from the Basin area back to Bakersfield to do some flying with Ray today and let him see what he thinks.

C

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Old 11-24-2012, 07:05 AM
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Hi Chip

So the Shark Finder is now converted to electric. This should be a good comparison then. Glow VS Electric on the same airplane. I have a electric Magician that flies very well and a Pathfinder almost ready for paint. Then a Shark 35 for my winter building project all electric of course.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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Hi Chip,
Which motor do you have in the ship?

Dean P.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:00 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)


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ORIGINAL: Dean Pappas

Hi Chip,
Which motor do you have in the ship?

Dean P.
At the moment I am trying several different motors just to get a good starting point for when Steve Neu is ready for us to do some testing. We have used the eflite 10, 25, and 32 along with a Hacker (I will get the # tomorrow) and have had good luck so far with all 4. However the price seemed to be a little steep for the average guy. But then I found this motor made by Turnigy. Aerodrive SK3 - 3542-800kv Brushless Outrunner Motor. It looks exactly the same as the eflite motors but its less then half the price. Just started running them so its really to soon to say but its an outrunner so my guess is it will work for as good as any other.

I have been really busy here lately but my SV's are coming along nicely. Ray and I weighed the first one last night and its 29.5 ounces (Complete airframe with control system) ready to start the finishing process. The first one is going to be glassed with automotive paint on the fuse, monokote wing and stab. I have modified it somewhat due to the real possibility of coming out tail heavy I know others that carry a ton of extra battery to compenasate for that but I want to only use whats needed for the flight. The Sharkfinder has been a really good plane for experimenting with and I fly it two different ways. The first is with the 3300 4S (12.5 ounce batt) at a total weight of 58 ounces and the second is with a 2500 4S (9 ounces) at 53 ounces. I get to take off an ounce and a half of tail weight when I use the small batt.

Once I got the CG right the SF was pretty sporty even with the heavy batt but I could not believe the transformation when an additional 5 oz was removed. Tomorrow I am going to meet Ray so he can fly it as well (Last weekend he was called into work) I hope to get some video too.

More tomorrow

C
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:38 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Osv5LgJc0


Here is a video with the stud finder. SV is just about done.

C
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:10 AM
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Super smooth Chip, makes me want to try CL again, the electric looks easier than trying to get a two stroke tuned perfectly.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:09 AM
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OK Chip ! You are well on your way ! Nice flyin airplane too. Thanks for the video.
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