PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

Not sure how to start this, Non-Turnaround vs. TA or AMA contest combo events. I started flying pattern in the mid 80’s so I grew up on non-turnaround and then transitioned into TA when all the classes changed in 1992. Back to the beginning I flew a sport air 40 and took 2nd place at my first contest, all the airplanes where similar in that class and everyone was willing to help the new kid. As time went on the engines got bigger with the YS120 now on the scene, but what was noticed is if you were not flying the newest engine you did not get paid in points. Sometimes IMHO I think we as a group could be our own worst enemy. We have let the FAI community influence the AMA pattern community and we had to adapt to T/A. In saying this the best things I remembered in the early years is that a father and son showed at a contest with a trainer or a sport plane and not feel intimidated, I have seen it currently with a new pattern pilot showing up with a plane and competing against a pilot with the newest composite $2K plane flying against him. Talk about intimidating!

Some will say it was noise and that is why the change, well remember back in the day we had noise rules and the 2 stroke pipe engines made the Db. test. How many sport planes at your club cannot even pass right now?

Anyhow what this is leading up to why classic pattern (non-turnaround)

- Some people may not have the time to practice as needed in Turn around.

- The cost of the plane and equipment is lower than current 2 meter equipment.

- Some like reliving the pattern of the past, Flying the older planes and patterns.

In one of the earlier post someone asked about turning around for another pass, yep your right but not being scored, some people want to compete and do not like being in front of others, this free time gives them time to think and put the plane where they want it. Over the last two years there have been CPA clinics/primers and people have had a great time. That is what it is all about WE having fun and with the lower pressure more people come out to fly.

What about combo events? well from what has been reported by the CPA regional directors attending contest is there has not been any heartburn over this, some fly AMA & CPA and others may fly only one style, either way it is a win win setup as it increase participation and let’s face it right now AMA contest attendance is decreasing and the classic pattern events have be increasing attendance and number of contest.

So in closing I will have the flame suit ready and why not use some of these ideas at your next contest, maybe a “club” pattern or use one of the non-turnaround patterns for the lower classes to get new people in or run a combo event.

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Scott, I will still support your future efforts. It's obvious to me that with the dwindling in numbers of turnaround pattern fliers in recent years, we all need to rethink and redouble our efforts to keep pattern alive whether it be turnaround or non-turnaround. Thanks for starting the new thread. Everette

rcflyer4fun

I believe a non turnaround beginner class that is supported by the AMA and the NSRCA is essential to increase our numbers and participation. We experienced flyers obviously love turnaround but we need to take a look at the sport from a beginners perspective. There is a guy in my club that is interested in flying pattern but he thinks he needs a good pattern design to complete. So to date he has not yet participated in a contest. I tell him he could fly his big stick and do well.

We as experienced pilots can not continue to think flying turnaround is easy for the majority of biginners because its not. So how do you practice pattern manuevers if you can't do them. Thus that is why we have very low turnout in Sportsman class.

A non-turnaround beginners class would probably be supported at the club level with Sportsman only events as club fund raisers. This would certainly help our numbers as a some of them would enter our pattern contests. Which is better than the turn out we get now.

This is something we really need to consider to grow the sport. IMO

So who is in favor and who is not in favor of the idea and why?

viva_peru

We have had an increase in interest in flying precision aerobatics at my club. Unfortunately (depending on your point of view), most of the new comers are leaning towards IMAC. Interestingly, IMAC does require you to fly within a box from the get-go; however, their box is not enforced as strictly as ours, but they are judged on the turn around manuevers. The interesting thing is that I have not heard any of them complain about having to fly within a box. To them, that is just the way it is.

For me, it is the same. I started flying pattern a few years ago so I have not been exposed to anything but turn around. It does make it harder, but in a sense, that is also part of the challenge. I thing that part of the draw to IMAC is that their sequences are more "showy" than ours. You can argue about which one is harder to fly, but I would be willing to bet that a spectator would find the IMAC routines more interesting. Now, if you were allowed to fly the IMAC routines with a pattern plane (beyond Basic.)....

Teo

Silent-AV8R

IMAC does not have a box at all. They have no defined airspace that you must fly in other than being in front of the deadline. They used to have a box and also had a centering requirement, but those went away a few years ago. IMAC uses a subjectively judged thing called the "Airspace Control Score or ACS" to attempt to keep sequences within visual sight of the judges. Doesn't always work that way however.

Passport1

My Feedback: (8)

My 2 cents. Over the last year I have been really trying to figure out what we need to do in order to attract new young people into pattern. IMAC seems to have no problem and there planes are 3 times the price. What I figured out IMO after going to a few IMAC contests is the majority of the people overthere are disgruntled too they just seem to be a tighter group and thats what really makes it fun. Like at the shootout this year during the contest people seemed uptight but once the scores came out and they were so far off with what most of the pilots felt they should of had we had no choice but get together and have fun.

I know right now the Nor Cal guys are strong and they are a fun group that new pilots see and want to be a prt of. We have the same thing going here in our area as well. On any given "pattern Wed." you will find between 6 and 10 guys at Arvin flying just pattern all day long and having a blast doing so. (BTW if you fly pattern you are welcome to come check it out) We have Brock, Gary, Larry, Steve L. Steve S. Vic and as of today Carlos in sportsman, Kyle Dahl and Carlos have new Winds ready and Kyles dad just bought one to join us as well. Kyle and Kirt Campbell are going to be serious threats in Masters at the nats along with Leon and Jim O right behind them. A year ago there wasn't one active pattern flyer in the club, what changed. At first I was convinced it was when we had the first Bash and attributed that to the shortened sportsman pattern. True that may of been the spark but now I believe it would of still happened no matter what pattern they flew because everyone had fun and its continued to grow. To me its unbelieveable every time I go out and see it, as I have been to smaller contests

The bottom line is those guys are a great group of people so when they get together its just a lot of fun. I am not saying don't try the Non TA pattern, it sounds like a good idea, however there needs to be more of a draw then just flying a pattern for pattern to rejuvinate and I think people are starting to see that.

Again just my .02 cents worth

danamania

One of my home field clubs, the Lehigh Valley Radio Control Society (LVRCS) in Easton PA, has a number of pilots who flew pattern back in the day. One or two even flew IMAC. They are terrific teachers of precision aerobatics and the RC flying hobby in general. The LVRCS has been a pioneering club in electric quite apart from its introduction to pattern so we have a lot of know how to offer newcomers with a broad variety of interests.  I returned to the RC flying hobby a few years ago and these guys got me flying straight (almost) most of the time LOL.  Since then, I have tried my hand at IMAC Basic and NSRCA Pattern. Well one is really time consuming enough so for a variety of reasons, I stuck with the NSRCA.

PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

Dana,

Please send me the dates and contest info and i will post on the CPA site.. Jim and I have talked about this contest he just did not have the dates. If you wnat the CPA logo let me know.

Scott cpa#2

caution

Playing with the idea of flying again after a 12 year absence I converted my 12 lb. Epicure to electric due to the field I joined was electric only. I used a Hacker A50-12 with a 6 bat. The intent was to make this old plane as a fun fly and not pattern. A few months later I ran into Mike Austen at the AMA field. We quickly became friends. He convinced me to do a D7 contest with him at . The first thing I noticed on contest day was that we were invisible to almost everyone. I walked through the pits to get ideas and ask advice and, except for one guy, I got nothing. On Sunday we found out that the flyers had a get together the night before at one of the local restaurants. We weren’t invited.   So here we have two relatively new guys coming from 250 miles out of town.  A first impression is your last impression and this one was not a good one for any new flyer.  At the beginning of a contest we should ask if there are any new flyers and if they need any assistance, questions , or any help.

 

Gary

PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

Gary,

Great point ! Like i said we are killing our sport by not listening what the average sport or pattern pilot is looking for. The whole sport is driven by the upper classes Masters and FAI... Lets get back to basics either thru AMA pattern or classic pattern.



Scott

MTK

Really sorry to hear that noone stepped up to help and advise....That's not typical. I like the idea Gary is suggesting here. I haven't seen that done much over the years if at all

As far as TA versus Non-TA, does it matter much? We went to TA to lower the noise footprint back in the day of the screaming 60's. Lost flying sites due to noise was a real problem. Today, most everyone is flying e-power. The few of us still remaining that fly wet set-ups know how to get them super quiet. The noise footprint has basically gone away....

I say fly what you want as long as we don't allow it to get loud again. We will all adjust to whatever gets in vogue

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Gary, I have to agree with Matt. I've had it happen to me on occasion when I've traveled to a contest outside of D3. In high school we use to call it a "clique"! Unfortunately that mentality still exists. IMHO, "cliques" are guilty of "eating their young" and most of those involved are either clueless or could care less! Either way, the damage is done. Please don't get discouraged and try to remember the few don't represent the many. Regards, Everette

pvogel

I think a lot of folks will leave people alone when they seem to just be walking through. I'm one of those shy guys who used to just walk through at contests, so I've taken to noticing if people are looking at my plane with interest and I'll prompt them: "Do you have any questions I can answer for you?" Since I'm also an instructor at our club this often leads to new club members needing basic instruction, but I have also encountered a few guys who used to fly and I encourage them to get back into it. I was at about half the D7 contests in 2012 and they're a pretty gregarious and friendly bunch, but we'll generally leave you alone unless you show interest.

As for new folks in a contest, most of the ones I attended the CD pointed out new folks and asked those of us who had flown a few contests to help teach the new guys the ropes, I really enjoy doing that, I just have to avoid giving them so much advice they start beating me! LOL... (it nearly happened)

Peter+

caution

Peter,   

This is great that you got this reception as it should be, but this is not how it always works. I want to make it clear that I’m not bashing any of the contest directors or contestants. Their  work and friendship is greatly appreciated.  We need to think outside the box on how to improve things and reevaluate  what we are presently doing. Sometimes small simple changes get big positive results.

  My opinions below , take it or leave it. I’m done!

Gary

 

PLAN :A

 A new flyer comes to his first contest, he’s nervous and unknown. He wanders through the pits seeing the high dollar planes and saying to himself “Am I going to look stupid and is this for me?”  The contest starts and he’s up first (no coincidence as in most cases, as we fly the beginners and unknown guys first) It’s how we test the air for us.

PLAN : B

A new flyer comes to his first contest.  At the pilots meeting the contest director asks if we have any new flyers. He’s introduced to everyone, asked about his plane, experience, equipment, asked if he has questions, told about any get together that night, etc. We offer him an experienced caller. Now the ice is broken. He is now part of the group. Now we know him and when he comes through the pits he’s no longer too intimidated to ask questions and just talk with the guys.

We got it backwards. We need them, they don’t need us. They’re not applying for the privilege to fly with us. We should be applying for them to join our team.

jgg215

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Gary,

I certainly agree that your plan B is what you should see at contests and in my opinion, usually do.

However, a new contestant has certain obligations as well. He needs to make sure that the CD is aware before the contest that he is planning on attending, make an effort to show up for Friday’s practice and to introduce himself to everyone he runs into. Friday is when you can meet contestants in a low-pressure environment and ASK for help. You cannot fail to preregister, sign up on Saturday with the non-pattern club member running registration, and then wander around the pits expecting to be noticed. It might happen… or not. This is also the busiest time for the CD. He is trying to keep a number of balls in the air and your newbie ball may fall to the floor. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of out of town contestants that may only see each other at this contest. Expecting them to stop reconnecting and pay attention to someone wandering around the pits is too much.

I would suggest the CD uses name tags listing: name, pattern class, years in pattern or newbie and model. Perhaps a different color tag for the newbie. This identifies everyone you don’t know and potentially gives you a leg up on something to talk about. CDs, are you listening?

Another area is the skill level of the newcomer. We often assign experienced pilots to act as callers. Sometimes this can be excruciating for the caller. When you get someone with a mistrimmed airplane along with lack of recognition of the fact that they are flying 30 degrees offcourse with a roll angle of twenty degrees and you are supposed to talk them through two loops…… Just do the best you can and offer to help them trim their model after the last round of the day. Plus try to find them some local help down the road.

As far as the Friday night dinners go, these are usually old friends getting together and are not part of the contest nor are they set up by the CD. You best bet is to try to set up a new group with the other sportsmen. I’ve been trying to get past this at my contests by holding a dinner at my house Friday night for all contestants to include significant others, etc. Of course if I don’t know you are coming…..

One thing I’ve pushed for but haven’t managed to pull off even at contests I CD, is a real scoreboard. This would be a board with scores, both raw and normalized, a photo of the flyer and model, plus placing in class for the current round posted. This helps both the contestants and provides an entry point for, dare I say it—spectators. If you think the new contestants are being ignored, try being a spectator at a contest where you are unknown. When you think about it, anyone who expends the energy to attend a pattern contest as a spectator not only deserves a medal but is also a POTENTIAL PATTERN FLYER.

John Gayer

NSRCA Treasurer

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maustin

My Feedback: (7)

And last but not least someone ( CD or assistant CD) needs to contact any new 1st time flyers after the contest to make sure all went well or get good feedback on his perspective on the experience. A nice touch that could go a long way. I would only do this with 1st time pilots of course. How many stories have we read where a new flyer went home and either vented on the blogs or decide to never show again.

maustin

MTK

Plan A- No I don' t agree that we test anything by flying the lower classes first. This suggests or implies that higher class pilots can't handle the conditions!!!??? That's nonsense

Plan B- I like it! I've been flying Pattern since 79. Been flying RC since 68. My first contest in 79 almost doesn't count. It was what we now call a primer for first timers flying a modified schedule. Good thing too because it blew a gale that afternoon. The local airport had some full scales flip over. We were cooked after 2 rounds. Took 4th place out some 15 or so and was hooked

The second contest in 1980 was the real thing. 23 in Novice alone(became Sportsman several years later). There were guys from 7 states plus 3 from Mexico competing,,,,there were 83 contestants in all as I recall. Talking intimidation, my fixed gear super Kaos covered in wrinkle kote with a muffled K&B against all the high dollar,shiny, glassed and painted high performancemodels in Novice. First time I saw a tuned pipe actually do its thing. And retracts galore. Not on mypuny Kaos. Yet I sucked it up and competed. Took a respectable 11th; didn't embarass myself

I approached one group of particularly friendly Texans who were into scale primarily but competed in Pattern to help their scale flying. They were extremely helpful and one of the guys, Mel if I recall, called for me the whole contest. A great way to get introduced to Pattern....and boy did I (and my brand new wife of10 months) have an absolute blast..... BUT I had to approach them, not the other way around. And Mel took 3rd in Novice as I recall which was and still is a big deal. No snob there!! The guy who won Novice, a different Henderson (of all names), eventually became NSRCAPeep in the mid 80's

I wanted and needed to compete in Pattern. It was and stii is a great release for me. I did whatever I needed to do to learn whatever I had to, to be competitive. So I am not so sure that I didn't need Pattern. It simply appealed to my eye....I appreciate the simple and elegant beautyofgeometric figures. It's that simple........ and perhaps the rest of the lifers in the sport feel similarly

Surefire

My Feedback: (1)

Gary - I 100% agree that Plan B is the way we should do things. I try and get any new pilots help and let everyone know who they are at the pilots meeting. As a CD you are running around "on fire" Saturday morning though so sometimes we can screw up!

Thanks,

turbo.gst

My Feedback: (8)

My experience with going to contests goes along with the clique/ invisible one. Figure the cost of driving some 300 miles( each way) and the cost of a 2 day trip, I could have bought a new toy. I tried to talk to everyone, but it was like pulling teeth. I got the impression that they didn't care if I was there or not. Talking about it to others afterward related the same experience mostly. Very sad state of affairs.

KLXMASTER14

My experience has been positive. I re-entered the active pattern contest "world" a little over a year ago. Prior to that, I went to a couple of IMAC contests. I knew no one, and made it a point to introduce myself. So I do the same at pattern meets, and this is not easy for me, I am much more comfortable in my shell. It is human nature for the "crowd" to size up the new guy. After that, you are either in or out. Again, human nature. If you make an effort to introduce yourself and you are ignored, that is just plain rude. It sucks, but it happens.

When that happens to me, I just remember that I am there to fly my toy airplane and the person that I am really competing with is myself. I really don't care if I win a popularity contest. Sometimes when you carry yourself through such a situation, you gain the respect of those who are seemingly ignoring you. (They're still watching). If they don't, then whatever. They can't all be winners.

That being said, my overall experience has been overwhelmingly positive, and even a dork like me has been accepted, as well as my beautiful wife, and we are grateful to our new friends in the pattern community. Pattern folks by and large are wonderful people, and our lives have been blessed by their acquaintance. Thank you.
.

-Robert

Jeff Worsham

My Feedback: (28)

That's not good, sorry to hear that. There's a contest in Alamogordo NM March 16,17 (280mi from Midland). Being a newbie Sportsman guy here in NM, I can't imagine that happening in Alamogordo or in Albuquerque. Real friendly bunch of guys here - see of you can make it!

stuntflyr

So true. However the majority of people remember the 40 year old precedent of IMAC as being a Miniature IAC. So the box was the first and foremost feature of that event. (The next being that the maneuvers were done in a "turnaround" manner, just like real airplanes.) Just because they changed it to no box in 2011 isn't really going to have an immediate effect on non-IMAC people's perception of it.

Chris...

stuntflyr

It's always best to bring your beautiful wife to the contest. I brought mine to the San Diego contest and even the Phoenix guys asked me to dinner!
Chris...

bjr_93tz

In Australia our entry level class is non-turnaround, and from the perspective of participation rates I just don't know if it's a good thing or not?

From a skills development perspective it's ideal, as entry level pilots can establish a consistant baseline and focus on performing the elements of each centre maneuver correctly. If it were a turnaround schedule they'ed be using 3/4 of the maneuvers trying to get back onto line for the next one.

From a marketing perspective it's a tough sell, when their mates that fly IMAC at similiar levels are "doing" rolling this and snapping that. It's akin to trying to convince street kids that calligraphy is a rewarding alternative to graffiti when there's no clear link between calligraphy and "street cred". I will add I've seen grafitti that looks better and required more talent than some works of "art" in our national art gallery so I'm not knocking grafitti when it's done well.

underdw

My Feedback: (2)

I've been working with guys getting into entry level pattern and/or Imac. Our conclusion is that Sportsman pattern is more beginner friendly than Basic IMAC. Two factors in the sequences are key:
- No spin
- 2 opportunities to exit the box and do a non-judged turnaround.

Dan