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  1. #1
    baronbrian's Avatar
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    the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Although I have been concerned about telemetry for a while as pattern rules disallow it, I haven't had to serious of thoughts about it as I cant see how it could help a flyer during a contest without being obvious to others around hem that they are indeed using it. That said, I am in favor of telemetry considering Rx voltage monitoring. However with third party manufacturers making 3-axis stabilizers and now spektrum releasing the 635 6 channel rx with as3x, has the time come where cd's should be performing random or mandatory checks at contests to assure people aren't getting help with their flying??
    Contest Director for the AMA
    Grand Forks, North Dakota- Where time stands still but the air is always moving.

  2. #2
    countilaw's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    I feel that at least the rules could provide for an ad hoc complaint system where another flyer can contest a winner's plane for inspection. And if any system found that could enhance the proformance of the flight, the pilot would be disqualified. This system was used in Formula One for years. The complaining pilot paid a fee, and the suspect engine would be dismantled and inspected.

    In years past, roll buttons were on transmitters. And we didn't have any problem with pilots NOT using them. That's one thing about Pattern Pilots. The sense of fairness and sportsmanship. How many times have I seen a pilot lose a plane in a contest, and another competitor loan him a plane to finish the contest? More than I can remember. How many times have I seen other contestants do everything they could to help another flier finish the contest? Again, more than I can remember.

    How many times have I seen constant winners give other pilots their secrets of construction and tips of flying?

    That's what I like about Pattern...... it's a real sportsman sport.

    Frank
    AMA #5810
    CPA # 73
    Contest Director
    AMA Introductory Flight Instructor
    Club Safety Officer

  3. #3
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Telemetry in regard to distance, attitude, altitude and aptitude(any auto correcting) must continue to be disallowed in Pattern (for both the pilot and the judges).

    I am in favor of telemetry in regard to passive monitoring that alerts the pilot of unsafe conditions such as airborne voltage, but only for the RX, not the model's power supply. Also in favor of passive monitoring of servo current draw

    For me personally, if a guy were to cheat with auto correcting to a win, what has he won? On the other hand we shouldn't be blind to the fact that personal agendas exist. I know some who have been victimized by that. Unfortunately pattern isn't as pure as, say, Pro Golf.
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  4. #4
    klhoard's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: Brian Dorff. . .<snip>. . However with third party manufacturers making 3-axis stabilizers and now spektrum releasing the 635 6 channel rx with as3x, has the time come where cd's should be performing random or mandatory checks at contests to assure people aren't getting help with their flying??
    .
    Unless you're willing to disassemble a guy's airplane at a contest, you'll never know. You can try to detect gyros before or after the flight by picking it up and rolling or pitching the plane, but that is easily defeated by turning the gains to 0% with a gear switch so they're only active in the air.
    .
    At least that's how I'd do it . . .
    .

    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  5. #5
    Henning's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    ORIGINAL: MTK

    Telemetry in regard to distance, attitude, altitude and aptitudeΒ*(any auto correcting) must continue to be disallowed in Pattern (for both the pilot and the judges).

    I am in favor of telemetry in regard to passive monitoring that alerts the pilot of unsafe conditions such as airborne voltage, but only for the RX, not the model's power supply. Also in favor of passive monitoring of servo current draw

    For me personally, if a guy were to cheat with auto correcting to a win, what has he won? On the other hand we shouldn't be blind to the fact that personal agendas exist. I know some who have been victimized by that. Unfortunately pattern isn't as pure as, say, Pro Golf.
    Pilots are flying F3A FAI contests already with telemetry and monitoring of used mAh and voltage on both Rx battery and main battery. None of them will improve your flight but you will get added safety. If the alarm should go-off for low voltage on the Rx battery or you have used too many mAh you can abort the flight and land safely.

    Who cares about servo current draw during a contest flight?

    Regards,
    Henning

  6. #6
    nonstoprc's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Seems if one can continuously monitor the power withdrawal of the main battery through warning beeps, one may be able to keep a level flight as constant speed as it can be.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  7. #7

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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    How exactly would you do that?
    Go knife edge your cub!

  8. #8

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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    I already use feedback (visual and audio) for my power system...



    If it's blowing smoke then the fire's still lit and the droning noise is fairly proportional to engine rpm

  9. #9
    nonstoprc's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: Rendegade

    How exactly would you do that?
    The input power is voltage x current. So if these two variables can be transmitted and their product being monitored at the radio side, you have a feeling of the input power.


    Now establish the right speed at the start of the level flight and notice the input power , say as audio beeps with a frequency.
    Assume no wind change. You just need to keep the input power constant by managing the throttle and to maintain the beeps in that frequency.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  10. #10
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    [quote]ORIGINAL: Henning

    ORIGINAL: MTK

    Telemetry in regard to distance, attitude, altitude and aptitude(any auto correcting) must continue to be disallowed in Pattern (for both the pilot and the judges).

    I am in favor of telemetry in regard to passive monitoring that alerts the pilot of unsafe conditions such as airborne voltage, but only for the RX, not the model's power supply. Also in favor of passive monitoring of servo current draw


    Who cares about servo current draw during a contest flight?

    Regards,
    Henning
    I do! As I said before....YMMV!!!!
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  11. #11
    klhoard's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: nonstoprc


    ORIGINAL: Rendegade

    How exactly would you do that?
    . .<snip>. .You just need to keep the input power constant by managing the throttle and to maintain the beeps in that frequency.
    .
    Why not just use the ESC's governor function? It works for helicopters.
    .

    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  12. #12

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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Anybody that cheats using telemetry or any-type of" flight stabilization" Are not true pattern flyers and will soon get bored because they" just don't get it" the reason we fly pattern and leave.. I've not seen anyone cheating in this way or suspected anyone .. I think it is really a none issue...


    Gary

  13. #13

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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    One of the club fields I fly at has a number of pilots who hold turbine wavers.  One of these pilots had a little MiG-15 sporting as3x that I saw him fly one day last summer.  Being a Futaba user, I was naturally curious about his impressions of the new technology.  He complained that it wouldn't really let him roll the little MiG on its axis and that he had to fight it to do aerobatics.  Apparently the device was truly about stability in the sense of a pilot new to RC.  While this programming might be upgraded in the future by the manufacturer, my impression of his as3x flight experience was that it is of little value to those of us who fly aerobatics on a regular basis.  Thoughts?
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  14. #14
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

    I already use feedback (visual and audio) for my power system...



    If it's blowing smoke then the fire's still lit and the droning noise is fairly proportional to engine rpm
    Totally get it!! You are saying you are telemetric.....Congrats!!

    Some of us have opted to nix the visual; audio still works great tho!!
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  15. #15
    Jon Wold's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    The possibility of fitting a gyro is not new, people have experimented with helicopter gyros on the rudder. This is definitely against the rules, and the model processing before an event is the place to discover if such equipment is being used. The original question was, should we have checks to ensure nobody uses a gyro or stabilization system? I thought that was what model processing was for.

    In the very near future however, I see that all kinds of devices will be packed into receivers. We already have loggers, voltage regulators, sensors, bus-systems and now gyros. Who knows what's next? It will likely mean that we have to go out of our way to find "classic" receivers. For helicopters, the FAI class F3C is the classic class with mechanical stabilization (flybar) and F3N is for flybarless systems. They have 3-axis gyros. These gyros can pretty much fly the chopper for you, with panic-buttons that instantly returns the heli to a stable hover, regardless of what you were up to. Will we see a future 3D-aerobatic class, where gyros are allowed?

    I digress, here's what we have to conform to at the present time- the current F3A aerobatic rules, from the 2013 FAI Sporting code:

    Definition of a Radio Controlled Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft
    A model aircraft, but not a helicopter, which is aerodynamically manoeuvred in attitude, direction, and
    altitude by a pilot on the ground using radio control. Variable thrust direction of the propulsion device(s) is
    not allowed.
    ........
    Radio equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from the model aircraft to the
    ground except for the stipulations in Volume ABR B.11.2). Auto-pilot control utilising inertia, gravity or any
    type of terrestrial reference is prohibited. Automatic control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic
    control timing devices are prohibited.

    Example:

    Permitted:
    1. Control rate devices that are manually switched by the pilot.
    2. Any type of button or lever, switch, or dial control that is initiated or activated and terminated by the competitor.
    3. Manually operated switches or programmable options to couple and mix control functions.

    Not permitted:
    1. Snap roll buttons with automatic timing mode.
    2. Pre-programming devices to automatically perform a series of commands.
    3. Auto-pilots or gyros for automatic wing levelling or other stabilisation of the model aircraft.
    4. Automatic flight path guidance.
    5. Propeller pitch change with automatic timing mode.
    6. Any type of voice recognition system.
    7. Conditions, switches, throttle curves, or any other mechanical or electronic device that will prevent
    or limit sound level of the propulsion device during the sound/noise test.
    8. Any type of learning function involving manoeuvre to manoeuvre or flight to flight analysis.
    There's a reference to ABR, B.11.2, which is a separate document. It states:

    A Spread Spectrum technology receiver that transmits information back to the pilot-operated transmitter,
    is not considered to be a β€œdevice for the transmission of information from the model aircraft to the
    competitor”, provided that the only information that is transmitted is for the safe operation of the model
    aircraft.
    At a glance, it seems contradictory, but it means that you can use a downlink from the aircraft for safety purposes. That to me includes current monitoring, but excludes GPS, such as speed and positioning data which would be a huge benefit (you'd get a vibration alert from the transmitter if you are more than 175 metres out, or pushing the sector limit, for instance).
    F3A blog: http://www.aerowold.com

  16. #16
    Taurus Flyer's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: grcourtney

    Anybody that cheats using telemetry or any-type of'' flight stabilization'' Are not true pattern flyers and will soon get bored because they'' just don't get it'' the reason we fly pattern and leave.. I've not seen anyone cheating in this way or suspected anyone .. I think it is really a none issue...


    Gary
    Gary and contributers of the World Championships, 2013, in South Africa

    Look out for Old School, ! Ed Kazmirski was there more than 50 years ago but development of the Taurus wasn't stopped after that!
    (see the yellow circles)

    Cees
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  17. #17
    apereira's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    ORIGINAL: danamania

    One of the club fields I fly at has a number of pilots who hold turbine wavers. Β*One of these pilots had a little MiG-15 sporting as3x that I saw him fly one day last summer. Β*Being a Futaba user, I was naturally curious about his impressions of the new technology. Β*He complained that it wouldn't really let him roll the little MiG on its axis and that he had to fight it to do aerobatics. Β*Apparently the device was truly about stability in the sense of a pilot new to RC. Β*While this programming might be upgraded in the future by the manufacturer, my impression of his as3x flight experience was that it is of little value to those of us who fly aerobatics on a regular basis. Β*Thoughts?
    I agree 100%, I have the Mig and the Best 3D in both version, with and without as3X, the as3X helps in a lot of ways to make it more stable, but doing aerobatics is a different thing, is there is strong winds or no wind the aircraft reacts differently, and that is not good, you need your plane do what you tell him to do when you want it to, it is not like as3x on keep your plane form deviating from wind or your own mistakes.

    I tried a gyro years ago in an Extra and did not liked it, it was a two axis, it felt really weird at the time.

    No matter what people thing about telemetry, electronic aids etc, this is a 100% appreciative sport, if the judge does not like what he sees, you can tell him whatever story about gizmos but you get what you show, I think we are still far from being able to take advantage of the current systems for anyone to cheat.

    There is no way to install gyros without wires right now and at the last WC in Muncie Dave Lockhart was checking every plane internals looking for them and moving the plane while we to move all the switches, etc.

    Regards

  18. #18
    nonstoprc's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    ORIGINAL: klhoard


    ORIGINAL: nonstoprc


    ORIGINAL: Rendegade

    How exactly would you do that?
    . .. .You just need to keep the input power constant by managing the throttle and to maintain the beeps in that frequency.
    .
    Why not just use the ESC's governor function?Β* It works for helicopters.
    .

    Sounds like a good idea. But for CC or Jeti and other ESCs, the governor function only works in heli mode, right?


    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  19. #19
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: klhoard

    .
    Why not just use the ESC's governor function? It works for helicopters.
    .

    Keith,

    I'm not into helis so I may be talking out of school.

    I think the governor function for helis is one that maintains rotor rpm. As they increase or decrease collective, power consumption goes up or down accordingly while trying to maintain rpm.

    Not too sure this works as well in a Pattern model.... Mayhaps! I don't fly big electric either so not certain....
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  20. #20
    nonstoprc's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    My understanding is that in governor mode, the ESC will try to hold the head speed (the RPM) an instant, for a throttle position, even when the voltage of the pack drops.

    The property is what we want in pattern. But not sure if the pattern works in general with an ESC in Heli mode.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  21. #21
    Taurus Flyer's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Gents, for who is interested,
    For a brief description of my Taurus, see my post of 2009 in the thread "post some pictures of your pattern plane!!"
    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8848961

    Cees


  22. #22
    Bill Clark's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern


    ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

    My understanding is that in governor mode, the ESC will try to hold the head speed (the RPM) an instant, for a throttle position, even when the voltage of the pack drops.

    The property is what we want in pattern. But not sure if the pattern works in general with an ESC in Heli mode.
    CC's governor mode software is preprogrammedwith a slow spool up. if I remember correctly, at lower than about 80% the esc has a hard time holding constant speed usually resulting in a pulsing or wavering of motor speed.

  23. #23
    klhoard's Avatar
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    .
    I just started flying helos last summer - an impulse purchase - but have been enjoying the snot out of them so far. If you want to really learn your radio, then pick up a used 450 over on RunRyder or HeliFreak and learn to hover!!
    .
    Anyway . . . here's how the governor (or Fixed RPM) mode works on the Castle ESC.
    .
    Using the CC Link software, you select three RPM's that you want the ESC to hold for you. You also enter the gear ratio (we'd use 1:1) and number of poles and KV of your motor. The software will then calculate if you have enough "headroom" to maintain the selected RPM. "Headroom" is how much extra throttle - margin - the ESC has to maintain the selected RPM during times of increased load.
    .
    Once the CC Link software has determined that the ESC is capable of meeting your demands, it will let you write those RPM's to the ESC. Your three RPM's will be in boxes labelled 30%, 70%, and 100%. You can also set the spoolup time and transition between RPM's. There is also a way to set a much faster spoolup speed from 0% throttle using the "Autorotation Bailout" function.
    .
    Now your throttle is no longer a throttle, but an RPM selection channel. When the throttle channel is at either 0%, slightly above 0% (when using Auto-Bailout), 30%, 70%, or 100% the ESC will use whatever power it has available to maintain the pre-programmed RPM regardless of battery voltage or prop load - up to 100%, of course. In the second .jpg below, you'll notice that the black line - throttle input - and the red line - RPM (2100) - stay constant while battery voltage drops thru the flight. The blue and green lines - ESC power input (foot on the gas pedal) and amperage - are jumping up and down in response to collective inputs.
    .
    There are also options for using an external governor. Hobbywing makes a sensor for $4 that you connect to two of the three motor wires and it feeds the motor RPM back to the governor. The governor then tells the ESC how much juice to put to the motor. The Futaba governor in the CGY-750 (a helicopter flybarless gyro) can read an RPM channel from your transmitter off of the S-bus feed. You could conceivably set as many RPM's for it to follow as you have conditions in your radio. And you'd also get the side benefit of a three axis gyro that is fully controllable (all three axes 0% - 100% gain) from your transmitter as well.
    .
    Just make sure you change the name of the "TechInspection" condition to something less obvious.
    .


    ORIGINAL: MTK
    ORIGINAL: klhoard
    .
    Why not just use the ESC's governor function? It works for helicopters.
    .
    Keith,
    I'm not into helis so I may be talking out of school.
    I think the governor function for helis is one that maintains rotor rpm. As they increase or decrease collective, power consumption goes up or down accordingly while trying to maintain rpm.
    Not too sure this works as well in a Pattern model.... Mayhaps! I don't fly big electric either so not certain....
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    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  24. #24
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    Keith,
    Thanks for information.
    It is a pity no configuration schema is given, with that a comparision could have been made with industrial variable speed drives forexample. Maybe interesting to start a thread about that in the helicopter forum?
    For pattern flying the principle seems to be useless or even will have a lot of disadvantages.
    Writing about the Taurus and its electronics there seems to be no interests. Reason will be this is mainly an electrical community (clique?), even there would be nearly no difference in controller configurations, algoritms and useable parameters etc.
    Related to the subject of this thread? It could have been interesting to argue about, but not really needed of course even the system could be transfered to a modern ship without violating the rules.

    Cees

  25. #25
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    RE: the use of telemetry and artificial flight stabilization in pattern

    .
    I have NO idea what you're rambling about . . .
    .
    ORIGINAL: Taurus Flyer

    Keith,
    Thanks for information.
    It is a pity no configuration schema is given, with that a comparision could have been made with industrial variable speed drives forexample. Maybe interesting to start a thread about that in the helicopter forum?
    For pattern flying the principle seems to be useless or even will have a lot of disadvantages.
    Writing about the Taurus and its electronics there seems to be no interests. Reason will be this is mainly an electrical community (clique?), even there would be nearly no difference in controller configurations, algoritms and useable parameters etc.
    Related to the subject of this thread? It could have been interesting to argue about, but not really needed of course even the system could be transfered to a modern ship without violating the rules.

    Cees
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868


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