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  1. #26

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    Perhaps, but turning newcomers away at contests, or telling them they cannot fly their new planes, it not really sporting either.  We have one opportunity to turn a new pilot on to pattern at that first encounter, or turn them away, probably for the rest of their days in the hobby.  Some fresh thinking and compromise is surely possible to make those new to precision aerobatics feel welcome and safe to try their hand at a contest?  Once that rare individual gets hooked on all these lines and curves we attempt to draw in the sky, it is very likely that they will want a bigger, better model anyway.  But that first season can be difficult and this may just give newcomers and our sport a healthy boost?  BUT, the AS3X pilots will need to be ranked against each other only for a fair contest for all comers.  What is the problem with such a win-win compromise at this entry point to the sport?
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  2. #27

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    For background - I competed locally a handful of times back in the late 80's in novice ... have not flown pattern since but have been very active in R/C all along and I am looking to get more involved in pattern going foward

    ... that said, I would say NOT to allow it until/if it is adoptable at all levels. If it is only to be allowed at the pre-entry level as a "crutch" for someone not knowing how to trim a plane, or similarly a "crutch" for a bad plane to program out its' nasties - then how will that person using said crutch progress to the next level with a new plane and be totally lost on how to trim/program it ?

    I dont know if this is applicable, but I personally love my non-as3x beasts compared to my as3x RoboBeast.

  3. #28
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

    Playing devils advocate, isn't ensuring the CG is ahead of the neutral point a form of "inertial stabilisation"??
    Yes it is! But there is a big difference between an electronic system doing that for you, continuously within a flight, and the pilot doing it for himself based on what HE believes the model needs, before said flight. Also, the pilot normally won't have the means to adjust cg in flight, but that's not difficult to build in. Hanno was doing that 20 years ago and others dabbled in it too. No matter what, adjustments won't be automatic and outside the pilot's control

    Electronic systems controlling autonomously are not particularly new or news for that matter. F16's and really most any modern fighter jet could hardlybe controlled otherwise.

    The posed question, Should this be allowed in Pattern Competition? My answer, What's the point of Pattern Competition?? We are not talking "Pattern Practice" here.....
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  4. #29
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    Having flown several of the planes with the AS3X system, the biggest advantage I would see is stability in the wind. The smaller micro stuff fly fine in conditions that without it the plane would be virtually unflyable. It really makes a different in those kind of corrections. I'm sure with the gains turned up it would do a better job going back to level and such, but as they come out of the box the planes are very stable in rough conditions and that is a definite advantage to someone flying sportsman.

    Arch
    Team Futaba, Aero-Model / Hacker, Tech Aero Designs, F3A Unlimited, Team BJ Craft, Thunder Power RC, Castle Creations

  5. #30

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?



    I think all of this talk brings out another question. It is only a matter of time before these "aids" will available in just about any configuration from any manufacturer so it begs the question how to make sure no one in the upper categories is using it.Eventually the plane will be able to fly itselfwith the pilot only moving the sticks for show. If you look atseveral motorsports series, they are mandating a spec ECU that is handed out to the racers during the race weekend and then returned to the race promoter. Thisway traction control and other tricks are controled.It seems to me that would be the only way to insure a fair playing field. Of course that would add a lot of expense for promoters to keep the major brands of RX's on hand but what are the other options? I know most people in this hobby are decent people but to assume no one will try to gain an unfairadvantage is not a viablestrategy.


  6. #31
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    I never though I'd see the day when PEDs (Pattern-flying Enhansing Devices) would find their way into aeromodeling. Clearly the first thing that needs to be implemented is urine testing...

    In all seriousness, it seems that electronics of this type are at the dawn and will only become more prevalent as time goes on. It seems some more study needs to happen in order to understand how to deal with it. To make judgements at this point may be premature.
    Never underestimate the importance of altitude...

  7. #32
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: danamania
    EDIT.....BUT, the AS3X pilots will need to be ranked against each other only for a fair contest for all comers. What is the problem with such a win-win compromise at this entry point to the sport?
    Dana,

    Putting my CD cap on......The main issue would be with the management of the contest. It will require advanced communication to level the field for all in that class. It may also require adjustments to scoring programs and such (but maybe not).
    Having said that, since the numbers are small regardless, it's probably no big deal to puta separate group of guys up. Scoring chorescould bedone manually for the small, separate group.
    I doubt judging would be a problem....
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  8. #33

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    Here's a question, how are you going to stop flyers from using this stuff? I remember back when gyro's first come out they were mechanical. I was at a couple of contests where I was asket to turn on my radio and an offical used a steffiscope to listen to the fuse to see if he could hear the gyro spinning. So what a couple of guys did was hook the gyro the the gear switch so it didn't comeon until the gear was up. Are you going to check every airplane at every event? I've never had any airplane safety checked let alone checked to see if it's legal.

    Flying pattern is my 2nd hobby. My first hobby is racing cars. You need to go to an event and watch what they go through trying to keep those cars legal. At most tracks they don't even look anymore because unless the racer is stupid they never find anything. Now I agree we should not allow the technology but it's coming and thinking you are going to stop it is funny.

    I was at a Heli contest a couple of years ago and Curtis showed up with a flybarless heli. He was told no. Last year at that same meet there wasn't a flybar on the field. It's coming. We better figure out how to regulate it.

  9. #34

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: MTK
    Putting my CD cap on......The main issue would be with the management of the contest. It will require advanced communication to level the field for all in that class. It may also require adjustments to scoring programs and such (but maybe not).
    Having said that, since the numbers are small regardless, it's probably no big deal to puta separate group of guys up. Scoring chorescould bedone manually for the small, separate group.
    I doubt judging would be a problem....
    Hi Matt, why make it more complicated than it need to be? OK, let's say 5 have entered the Sportsman class at a contest. All 5 fly their rounds in front of the judges who judge the flight path of the models and record their scores. The scores go into the scoring software as they always do. Nothing changes here. At the end of the last round, the standings look like this:

    1. Pilot A
    2. Pilot B (AS3X)
    3. Pilot C
    4. Pilot D (AS3X)
    5. Pilot E

    To keep the final outcome of the contest fair, the standings are adjusted as follows:

    NSRCA Sportsman class (elligible for Region standings if pilots are NSRCA members)
    1. Pilot A first place
    2. Pilot C second place
    3. Pilot E third place

    AS3X Sportsman results (inelligible for Region standings regardless of NSRCA membership)
    1. Pilot B (AS3X) first place, stabilized (LOL)
    2. Pilot D (AS3X) second place, stabilized (or whatever you want to print on the award certificate)

    Think of the AS3X as a club class of sorts. Everyone gets to fly, the flights are judged, some win, some do not. Simple, nothing really changes about the way the contest runs till the end.

    So this is my solution to this little thought experiment we are running here on this thread. It does not address the other good questions about the rules, technology, progress, etc. BUT this could certainly work in a pinch for the CD faced with a few of these newfangled (!) BNFs showing up at their contest one Saturday morning. Thanks for playing along, thoughts?


    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  10. #35

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    As a CD i have to go by the rules but that does not say I can't have an event for "run what you brung". That would be a great opportunity to hold a pattern clinic and teach the patterns. Have the guys judge each other so they can learn what the judges are looking for. The 3x unit does not fly the aircraft but is a fly by wire system. You still gotta move the sticks. The unit is a hoot for 3d flying. I have one in a Carbon Z Yak. It is rather crude compared to the heli FBL units on my helicopters.

    As an old Dave Brown era pattern pilot no I would not allow a unit in any event other than a fun fly.

    Just to set the record straight, Yep, a heli can do a three turn spin.

    my 2 dimes,

    Jim
    HobbyTown USA

  11. #36
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    Hi Matt, why make it more complicated than it need to be?
    Exactly my point!
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  12. #37

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: MTK


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    Hi Matt, why make it more complicated than it need to be?
    Exactly my point!
    Touché! I prefer Futaba anyway LOL. Cheers!
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  13. #38

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    Perhaps, but turning newcomers away at contests, or telling them they cannot fly their new planes, it not really sporting either. We have one opportunity to turn a new pilot on to pattern at that first encounter, or turn them away, probably for the rest of their days in the hobby. Some fresh thinking and compromise is surely possible to make those new to precision aerobatics feel welcome and safe to try their hand at a contest? Once that rare individual gets hooked on all these lines and curves we attempt to draw in the sky, it is very likely that they will want a bigger, better model anyway. But that first season can be difficult and this may just give newcomers and our sport a healthy boost? BUT, the AS3X pilots will need to be ranked against each other only for a fair contest for all comers. What is the problem with such a win-win compromise at this entry point to the sport?
    After thinking on this a bit more, what Iwould probably do is allow a one time waiver for new Sportsman pilot. Iwould then take the time to explain things at or near the end of the contest, and itmight go something like this:

    "You are probably here to have fun and to find out more about what precision aerobatics is about. Every contest is a great learning opportunity.One of the most important skills you will need to develop is how to set up your airplane properly. It's not something that you want to avoid knowing about, or cast off the responsibility to someone or something else. You need to learn about it so that you understand what's going on with your airplane. You also need to learn how to see the effects of wind, turbulence and stuff that might be wearing out on your airplane, which you will have a much more difficult time accomplishing if those effects are masked by a flight stabilization system. Take off the training wheels and learn how to fly precision aerobatics the right way"

    Something like that.
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

  14. #39

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    Examples of control functions not permitted:
    1) Snap buttons with automatic timing
    mode.
    2) Preprogramming devices to
    automatically perform a series of commands.
    3) Automatic leveling or stabilization in
    any axis (gyros, etc.).


    Always had a Love/Hate thing for pattern.....I mean...I get my 2K baby up there and it tucks under in a knifedge but wait...I can program that out with this fancy dancy TX I just bought...Dag Nag it... now it also rolls when I apply rudder...back to the TX...fixed. I guess I'd better add some Expo....cool...now I look alot smoother than I really am...think I'll add a flight mode....cool....Wait... Theres Joe Bob trying to get in my contest with his AS3X...Who does he think he is?? He'd better follow rule #3....just hope he can't read rule #2

  15. #40

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: LShaver1
    I mean...I get my 2K baby up there and it tucks under in a knifedge but wait...I can program that out with this fancy dancy TX I just bought...Dag Nag it...
    No, Dagnabbit it is when that elevator to rudder mix to fix the knife edge tuck rears it's ugly head when applying rudder corrections during outside loops and not inside ones. So you need to setup a stick switch to switch the mix out once you go past a certain amount of down elevator stick...

  16. #41

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    OHHH....thats what that switch is for...I was so busy preprograming my plane that I over looked it

  17. #42
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    Mixes do not program "a sequence of commands" (i.e. a timed sequence that is great on a scale bird to open gear doors and drop gear like the real planes with one side behind the other, doors before wheels, etc.) which could, conceivably, be used to program a timed sequence for a snap roll that's illegal, but a simple mix X elevator->y rudder or x throttle -> -y elevator is not a sequence, it's an instantaneous blending of controls and therefore not illegal.
    ---
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  18. #43

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    proΒ·gram

    6. A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations.


    When I hit my mix switch and my Rud is "Instantaneously blended" with my Elv. it doesn't wang all over the place and stop where it wants to; the slave channel moves and stops where I tell to....it travels/stops/moves;etc. every time just the way I "Programed" it to do and thats preprograming.
    If our passion (and you know pattern is) has any future we should welcome Joe Bob and his AS3X reciever with out any looking down our noses at him or degrading him by telling him he's not in the same class as the rest of us by under scoring him at a contest. Do you really think the AS3X is going to help him make a round loop/stay in the box/the list is endless. Joe Bob is our future and if he shows up and beats you, you should

    A pratice more
    B get a reciever like his

    And as far as our out dated rules go I'm going up in flames anyway so heres something for all the chariot lovers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(making_excuses)

  19. #44
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    If it were up to me, i would welcome the participant (in sportsman, or a maybe a first time contestant) but not make an issue of the receiver, similar to not weighing planes at local contests. It's against the rules, but it is most important to have fun. Should not be allowed at nats. I would not like my competition flying a gyro.

    There is a cool little airfield out here where they require tail dragger experience to get a pilots license. They talk about the dying of stick and rudder skills. We need to keep those skills alive in the hobby.
    Joe Marri
    Enjoying all things aviation.

  20. #45
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    .
    I think I'd make him set up at the far end of the field, down by the treeline and make him carry his plane back to his spot and cover it with a towel between flights. Oh yeah, and no caller. You wanna cheat, then do it yourself and not sully the reputation of some innocent pattern flyer who thinks he's just "helping a Sportsman" but then will be known forever as the "Cheater's Caller".
    .
    Yeah, that's what I'D do . . .
    .
    And everyone tell him that we're going to Captain D's for Saturday night dinner . . . then head out to Outback . . .
    .
    Yeah, yeah . . .
    .
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  21. #46

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    I've followed this thread for a little while. As someone who has CDd contests before, I believe most make exceptions to some rules like size and weght. I've flown Sportsman against somebody flying a 40% Extra who had flown IMAC. Wanna guess who won the contests? However, the rules were posted and I was alright with that.

    However, I feel some rules should not be sidestepped in Sportsman. Telemetry or any device providing stability of the aircraft in flight without being 100% in control by the pilot.

    I personally don't feel any plane flying this kind of setup should be allowed. One its difficlt to police and enforce. If we start allowing this in Sportsman, somebody eventually will be trying to hide it and take advantage in upper classes.

    In Sportsman it is sometimes frusterating for some to fly their sport plane against a committed Sportsman flying a 2M pattern plane. Then we allow Telemetry to the mix?

    It would do more harm than good to start allowing this in Sportsman.

    I do like the idea of allowing the pilot to fly Sportsman with this setup if...All other pilots are notified and the pilot flying a plane that doesn't meet the standard is not competing for placement or hardware. They would be a participating pilot in the event only and would not receive any awards. He can be scored as all others and posted, but dropped out for the awards and NSRCA points.

    The NSRCA points becomes a critical factor as well. Because of the possibility that a pilot flying a legal plane could lose placement points for the District Championship. This would be a Pattern sin in my humble opinion. I would hate to think somebody missed out on being a District Champion because they finished under an ineligible plane at a contest...

    My .02

    Larry Diamond

  22. #47

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    The following represents my personal observations, and in no way represents the NSRCA BOD.

    We have a guy in my local club who has been using gyros of various sorts in pattern style airplanes for several years. About 4 or 5 years ago, he showed up at our local contest with an airplane that had a three axix gyro system in it, about the size of a pre-turnaround pattern plane. He was not allowed to fly in the contest with the system activated. I observed a practice flight before the contest with the system activated, and he could do slow rolls, 4 points, knife edges, etc. as if on rails. He turned off the system for an official flight, he could fly ok, but it was apparent that the gyro system vastly improved his flying and the overall stability of the airplane when it had been turned on. He is an extremely experienced pilot, and flew pattern in the old days, so he knows how to fly. But his airplane and flying skills had become dependent on the system.

    He brought out a 110 size Angel a few weeks ago to our field with the $20 HobbyKing three axis system in it. Same observation as above. He has flown a lot of stabilized systems both in his job and as a hobby, so he knows how to set things up to take advantage of the capabilities of the systems.


    This is real world observation of what can be done in the hands of a good pilot. It is difficult now, especially in the top levels of F3A and Masters to differentiate between the top pilots; this would make the job even harder. The question is, is this what we want our sport to become?
    Jon Lowe

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?


    ORIGINAL: jonlowe

    The following represents my personal observations, and in no way represents the NSRCA BOD.

    We have a guy in my local club who has been using gyros of various sorts in pattern style airplanes for several years. About 4 or 5 years ago, he showed up at our local contest with an airplane that had a three axix gyro system in it, about the size of a pre-turnaround pattern plane. He was not allowed to fly in the contest with the system activated. I observed a practice flight before the contest with the system activated, and he could do slow rolls, 4 points, knife edges, etc. as if on rails. He turned off the system for an official flight, he could fly ok, but it was apparent that the gyro system vastly improved his flying and the overall stability of the airplane when it had been turned on. He is an extremely experienced pilot, and flew pattern in the old days, so he knows how to fly. But his airplane and flying skills had become dependent on the system.

    He brought out a 110 size Angel a few weeks ago to our field with the $20 HobbyKing three axis system in it. Same observation as above. He has flown a lot of stabilized systems both in his job and as a hobby, so he knows how to set things up to take advantage of the capabilities of the systems.


    This is real world observation of what can be done in the hands of a good pilot. It is difficult now, especially in the top levels of F3A and Masters to differentiate between the top pilots; this would make the job even harder. The question is, is this what we want our sport to become?
    Short answer... My vote is NO...

  24. #49

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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    To handle the concern of CDs this coming season, can you not just turn off the stabilization on those receivers? I'm sure you could drop in a non-AS3X receiver at least.

    Especially since the Splendor is his baby, I wonder what Quique would say on the record about the long-term effects of AS3X on the pattern world?

    Bill

  25. #50
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    RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?

    I'm a sportsman with a 2M plane and I hope this will be my last year flying Sportsman, I really only get a day a week to practice, though I am improving.... Having flown (non-pattern planes) with a 3 axis stabilization system, I concur, I would NOT want to see these things in competition. I actually wouldn't mind if someone coming out to a contest for the first time to fly in sportsman as a "fly what you brung" kind of thing flew with AS3X but I wouldn't be happy if he came to a second contest with the same setup, and I'm probably one of the most easy-going guys I know that flies pattern regularly...

    The point of pattern is *pilot* control of the aircraft, not computer control of the aircraft.

    Regarding the mixing argument, I'm a software engineer, I'm quite familiar with the definition of a program the rules are against a preprogrammed *Series* of commands, implying a spacing in time. Mixes are ignorant: you put in x% rudder and they put in y% elevator *at the same time* and they occur any time they are switched on (and the switch is controlled by the pilot) and they are explicitly declared by the rules to be permissible:

    Examples of control functions permitted:
    1) Control rate or control movement
    limit devices that are manually switched by the
    contestant.
    2) Any type of button, dial switch, or
    lever control that is initiated and terminated by
    the contestant.
    3) Manually operated switches to
    couple control functions.
    Peter+
    ---
    Team Esprit/JetiUSA


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