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Chip Hyde CG

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Old 02-26-2013, 02:26 PM
  #26
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

Kool looking concept Chip! Gett'er Done,...........

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:06 PM
  #27
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite

It's not hate, it's aerodynamics. Physics. Science. When I first saw the pics, I talked to Chip about it directly, as I think there will be serious interference issues between the wings. He thinks it'll fly just fine, so more power to him!

A bigger question is why someone can't disagree with another on this forum without being labeled as hate.
I agree... skepticism and disagreement are not hate... far from it.

And won't it be very interesting if the concept produces some previously unanticipated positive results?

If the experiment doesn't work, so what? At least somebody had the courage to try it. Who better than Chip, eh?

But the lower forward fuselage volume does seem to suggest a nod to Contra...
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:20 AM
  #28
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: cmoulder


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite

It's not hate, it's aerodynamics. Physics. Science. When I first saw the pics, I talked to Chip about it directly, as I think there will be serious interference issues between the wings. He thinks it'll fly just fine, so more power to him!

A bigger question is why someone can't disagree with another on this forum without being labeled as hate.
I agree... skepticism and disagreement are not hate... far from it.

And won't it be very interesting if the concept produces some previously unanticipated positive results?

If the experiment doesn't work, so what? At least somebody had the courage to try it. Who better than Chip, eh?

But the lower forward fuselage volume does seem to suggest a nod to Contra...
Contra with YS ???
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:46 AM
  #29
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Shimano

I suppose all the critics here have supirior knowledge in aerodynamics and design, huh.

Amazing how many people are so quick to talk crap about someone else's work and efforts.

Is it just because its from Chip, or what..

why is there so much hate in these boards...

I was about to answer you since I consider you wrote specially to me: I was tha first to critic, am I?

I said so because I'm sure about, I'm aerospace engineer and do aerodynamic design for living so you can bet I've idea when I open my mouth or write. I do not hate anybody, nor Chip who I belive is one of the best pilot and designer around.

I just expressed a TECHNICAL FLAW that MIGTH BE present in that design. Take it as "constructive criticism".

Other persons already wrote good posts explainig the same thing; so I hope this is the last input regarding to this issue. Let's see more post regarding to Chip's design...

BTW; I agree that there is a lot of post with some hate, but again; it's not the case here. Pattern forum is great and people here do not show other that friendship a good collaboration. I've never seen here any hostile post like you did.

PS: If you have to answer this, do it in PM; not here.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:30 AM
  #30
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG



guille, my comment was not towards you actually. and maybe it was premature some. I'll just zip it

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Old 02-28-2013, 11:35 AM
  #31
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: flycatch

Innovative thinking for a reason. What manuvers do better with a bi-wing design.
I believe that almost all maneuvers in current schedules benefit from two wings but especially things like snaps and spins. Just easier to present these well

The difficulty has always been and will continue to be set-up. Tuff enuff with only one wing....2 wings double your woes. Like i said, double ur pleasure quadruple ur fun?!

I doubt if the closeness of these two panels to one another will amount to a hill of beans difference in actual flight. Aerodynamic Interference requires speed, something current flight regimes simply don't have
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:24 PM
  #32
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

Matt is correct

None of what we thought we knew about Bipe`s have proven to be true.
When I started with the Shark , if I would have just listened to my Gut I would have been farthur ahead of the outcome I was left to decipher. I over came it with modeler sense and design experience ,I did not find the sulution in Nasa`s theorys

Chip has a solid design and a fresh look.
This is what top Thinkers do, when improvment stays on your mind 24-7 your out ahead of the gang in application of those thoughts
Just by trying them. A gambler? May be, But I see nothing here that won`t work ,and plenty thats in the right direction.


The wings being to close is just a "fairy tail" WHo owns that law Bernoulli !
At 70-90 mph you will never notice any bad effects. And I dare say it solves a few issues, as long as the wings are set up correctly.

"Spiral Slip steam ", Has no Proof ,and -Here`s the Spoof

Bryan

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #33
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

I can't speak for NASA theory, but when you see an F1 team using flow oil on their car during a free practice session you know that something funny is happening (aerodynamically) that even their computer models and wind tunnel testing hasn't picked up on.

It's amazing our planes fly as well as they do using the "That looks about right" method with trial and error testing and fine tuning based on qualitative observations.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #34
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

I don`t see I reason why it shouldn't work, looks VERY nice!!!!

the only thing I would like to see how they solve is the structural issue, a YS powered bipe should have one piece wings (4 wing halves would be a nightmare) and due to the wings positions in the fuselage may be a tricky thing to do.

lets see how it goes!

TUNY
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:37 PM
  #35
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: tuny

I don`t see I reason why it shouldn't work, looks VERY nice!!!!

the only thing I would like to see how they solve is the structural issue, a YS powered bipe should have one piece wings (4 wing halves would be a nightmare) and due to the wings positions in the fuselage may be a tricky thing to do.

lets see how it goes!

TUNY
TYNY,

That's elementary. Spanwise loading of each wing is about half. A 1/2" carbon tube will work fine. The bottom may be as simple and straight forward as we do in monos. The top can be 2 halves connected in the center with an 8" piece of carbon tubing; the assembly can be screwed in place with a single plastic bolt in a crutch. I've done that before in an Alliance-worked fine. Or they can go conventional. Which ever is simpler for the factory to build in.....and takes the least fuss at the field. Nothing magic here....As always, YMMV
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:42 PM
  #36
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

Rumor is one piece top wing and plug in bottom
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:43 AM
  #37
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

Make sense Todd, Chip is not new to YS, and as Tuny said, a four piece wing is not recommended as it will develop play you will have to correct every now and then, I mean some hundred of flights. But knowing Oxai, it might have a regular belly pan and a lower one piece wing.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:53 PM
  #38
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: flyncajun

Matt is correct

None of what we thought we knew about Bipe`s have proven to be true.
When I started with the Shark , if I would have just listened to my Gut I would have been farthur ahead of the outcome I was left to decipher. I over came it with modeler sense and design experience ,I did not find the sulution in Nasa`s theorys

Chip has a solid design and a fresh look.
This is what top Thinkers do, when improvment stays on your mind 24-7 your out ahead of the gang in application of those thoughts
Just by trying them. A gambler? May be, But I see nothing here that won`t work ,and plenty thats in the right direction.


The wings being to close is just a ''fairy tail'' WHo owns that law Bernoulli !
At 70-90 mph you will never notice any bad effects. And I dare say it solves a few issues, as long as the wings are set up correctly.

''Spiral Slip steam '', Has no Proof ,and -Here`s the Spoof

Bryan

"The good thing about science is that it's true, whether you believe in it or not." – Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:54 PM
  #39
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

HAHA Well Doug,

My sunday School teacher told me the same thing about God!

Please show me some Science on how the spiral slip Stream effects our models and I will debunk it! (this just might force me to give away all my secrets)
Then May be you will quote me one day!
In fact show me Science period in the effects to an airplane even full scale. no worries there is none

All Ill effects can be designed and trimmed out of any model if the design is good.
The Secret is knowing what effects What change. or causes another issue. Every action has a result Every result has a information.

Every surface on a airplane has a job if we ask it to do something it was not intended to do we get a reaction ant it usually gets blamed on the wrong thing (spiral slip stream)

Please give me an example of what you think the Spiral slip stream causes and I`ll give you the fix.
The Spiral Slip stream Blame game has been on forever and has caused Lazy designers and Trimmers.

I will be at Chips Contest in April if any one would like to talk about this I`m all ears But I have a big mouth as well HAHA

Anyway don`t want to hyjack this post on Chips Bipe.

Bryan



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Old 03-02-2013, 01:25 AM
  #40
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Are you serious Bryan? Designing or trimming to correct for spiral slipstream doesn't cause it to cease to exist. Designers of aircraft have been correcting for spiral slipstream for at least the last 75 years

Spiral slipstream impinges on the vertical surface of the airplane as it wraps around the fuselage. This has been proven countless times with wind tunnel and fluid dynamic testing. With normal rotation (counter-clockwise as viewed from the front), this spiral airflow hits the vertical fin on the left side of the aircraft, forcing it right. This is commonly attributed incorrectly to torque. The effects of spiral slipstream reduce as a function of increased airspeed. This force also changes as you change propellers. People generally correct this with right thrust, but as the force is constantly changing, the thrust setting really only works for a specific set of conditions.

As for your Sunday School teacher. Science can be proven, hence the reason it's called science. God, cannot be proven, hence the reason it's called faith.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:29 AM
  #41
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

I got a question for you model airplane designers. It appears to me that current designs do not take into account the new technologies (For example the contra). Probably less important electric power since the distribution of weights is different in electric vs. liquid fuel. Electric motors are a lot lighter than IC engines and the battery weight is since is located closer to the CG.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:36 AM
  #42
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

Hi Doug
Sure I`m serious, Tell me what you think the Spiral slip stream is causing on your Model ,Assuming you still have one for competition, I`ll tell you how to fix the problem Thus elliminating your Faith in the "Spiral Slip Stream" causing your issues.

I say it takes more faith to beleive in the "spiral slip stream" myth ,than it does to believe in God!

You cannot see it , and math cannot predict it. thus there is no Science( I learned to spell that one) to prove it. it cannot controled or adjusted with any understanding of it`s dynamics,there is only miss aligned or underdesigned designed airplanes to base the myth on.

There is no equasion of math , that can explain or predict it , there is no proof that can be seen. it is only blamed when they run out of options or ideas how to fix the issue they blame it on,

I have fixed with solid design and trimming (read perfect alignment) every thing ,that was ever blamed on the Spiral slip stream Myth.
Please Show me anywhere where any designer has designed any airplane,model or full scale, equating the math to counter the problem on said design.
The Math,It does not exist. no explanation, not from the Pro`s or Rookies. it is just accepted ,if it did exist it would be a Boeing Secret and or, Patented to "sell " the fix to the aircraft industry.

Please tell me on your model What problems your are saying is caused by the SLT, and I will tell you how to fix it with a Inc.Meter, Ruler ,or Exacto knife

Every ill effect we ever blamed this on, I have fixed with common sense and a good way to measure it.

Every compensation for thrust has a opposite reaction that needs to be trimmed ,Even positive Inc. in the wing.
For instance, Engine down thrust,has two reactions, the need to carry up elevator ,and it has a 90 deg reaction, call this P effect or touque, Thus more down thrust = the need for more right thrust.
This is why the Contra seems to fix the right thrust problems. But I have models designed with no down or right thust 20 years ago.
Take a regular single prop plane remove the down thrust ,,you can remove the right thrust ,,Unless your airplane is not properly designed. or you try to use the O-O method of trimming the plane.

I remember having this same heated debate 20+ years ago about My proof Positive inc. set up was the way to go and was pilled on by everyone, well mostly engineers ,, I dare say the entire model industry uses my methods now ,some credit me, Most do not. some take the Credit.
But, I know where it came from The more I get to debate it ,The more Proof I have I was right when it is Accepted, and the Bigger record of detractors LOL

Doug you may think I`m "Nuts" But Have you ever heard (never bet a man at his own Game ) I enjoy it! and ,I can back up my claims that is why I have no problem going against common myths and accepted conclusions from 80years ago.
Some times a lie or myth is just easier to believe It`s Just like Faith. When you accept what cannot be proven It`s easier to swallow.
However, I can prove its not a fact and I don`t need math just a inc. meter and the correct c/g
Bryan



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Old 03-02-2013, 04:29 PM
  #43
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:54 PM
  #44
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This might be worth a read if you can understand it.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1993081810.pdf

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Old 03-02-2013, 05:29 PM
  #45
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P-factor and torque are VERY different things Bryan. P-factor is the force created by the difference in angle of attack between the blades of a propeller. This effect only shows up when the aircraft in question is at a relatively high angle of attack causing the thrust line to be greatly different from the relative wind into the propeller. With our models airplanes, this effect is almost non-existent. Torque is a rotational force ONLY. It does not cause an airplane to yaw at all. The effect you're describing where a force applied to a rotating object shows effects of that force 90 degrees in the direction of rotation is called Gyroscopic Precession, and this effect only occurs during the time period the vector force is being applied to the rotating mass. In aircraft, this is most noticeable when pitching rapidly up/down. It is possible to trim an aircraft for a single data point, but change anything, and this trim generally requires adjustment.

As I said before, fixing something with trim, and design doesn't mean those forces cease to exist. It just means you've been able to counteract those forces through design and trimming. Spiral slipstream effects are very real. The contra system works by negating the spiral effect through opposite, relatively equal effect. Spiral slipstream is the reason a taildragger with a standard rotation engine needs right rudder on takeoff. It's also the reason airplanes using the Vedeneyev M-14P engine like the Su-29, Su-29, Su-31, Yak-55, Pitts Model 12, and others need LEFT rudder on takeoff. This isn't myth, faith, or magic. It's reality.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:25 PM
  #46
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

grabbing the popcorn, this should be interesting. I Love the knowledge that's brought forward from this conversation.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:38 PM
  #47
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG



Peter the prop vortex picture is nice , thanks I have seen it many times, plus a few other pictures that guys claim is the spiral slip stream. it`s not documentation from Nasa just a cool photo and, no body even know if it`s real. Just like the picure of a 20 ' long Alligator in New Orleans

If it is real,It`s nothng more than Prop tip vortex from a stationary run up. It will disipate and straiten as soon as it hits the wing, if it makes it that far . There is no way that air is still rotating past the wing. and if it hit the rudder there is not enough force to cause any ill effect anyway it would only be felt as turbulance.
just like a wing tip creates vortex traveling under high angle of attack,the prop does the same.

I`m too dumb to understand the artical thanks anyway but, It`s still conjecture.

Doug
don`t you think I know what P- effect or torque is, I read it on google too!
My Question to you is what do you think Spiral slip stream causes on a model plane. Please tell me , SO I can show you how to fix it, I want to help you understand how to trim the model your having trouble with. Do you Own a Contra! or have you ever flown a Contra drive setup? How can you qualify your expert knowledge?


No pattern model designer worries about the Spiral slip stream , He is way more worried about making weight Plain and simple. they can`t measure it because it is not real so they can`t fix it. . Any attempt to address it, causes other issues because it`s a band aid for the result of another problem. cause and effect ,,fix the wrong effect create another cause!

If the Contra straightens the "spiral Slip Stream" then why are they having so much trouble getting the airplane trimmed for it is straight air worse than crooked air LOL
The only GuyI know that didn`t have trouble trimming his airplane with the Contra, was the Guy flying a Valiant with a contra.
Could it be I`m lucky?
Have you ever seen video of ribbon tapped to a fuse while the engine is run up from idle to full throttle ,,you would be very surprised to see the ribbon just goes straight back no matter where you apply it to the fuse or wing.

Did you ever see a 40% airplane hover with smoke and watch the smoke spin or wrap around the airplane , NO,,does the airplane require left rudder to hover? NO,
The reason WHy it`s so hard to learn to torque roll is it`s very difficult to get the airplane to even actually start the spin the opposite of the prop and the torque force cannot even be felt holding a model off the ground and running the motor up. Even with no forward air speed, And hanging on the prop, goosing the throttle, it takes a large diameter prop and low pitch ,and there is no spiral slip stream seen. not even a bend in the smoke trail ,the smoke is just projected back from the prop the same angle as the engine thrust setting. Even when the plane is hidden with smoke and you hardly see the plane ,still no spiral slip stream. just turbulant smoke.

Almost all modern pattern designs can be set up to fly with no mix by just making sure everthing is perfectly aligned. not adusted crooked to counter act anything caused by using a 0-0 setup. but accurately measured and set perfect. A repair for the Myth is not needed just a little bit of common sense. knowing what causes the problem in the first place is the only way to fix it.

First ,left rudder belly tuck was blamed on the SSS after I understood what caused that problem and fixed it, then Left rudder mix at low throttle was blamed on it ,,then I figured out what causes that, Then yaw problems on radious exits were blamed Then I figured out what caused that! Man there is nothing left to blame the spiral slip stream on now. becuase it don`t cause any problems. and I`m bored.

So I Ask, What is your airplane doing so I can tell you how to fix it.
You would think,with all the YS powered airplane videos out there you would think somebody could show us a spiral slip stream on a rich run!
Even if I were to say I think it`s real, we have no way of seeing, feeling, or equating it. so it must not be real right? just like God

Bryan









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Old 03-02-2013, 11:51 PM
  #48
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG


Quote:
ORIGINAL: toddblose

Rumor is one piece top wing and plug in bottom
Simple, straight forward. How about adjustability? Both or just one? I have no interest in buying the crate. Just curious. TIA
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:01 AM
  #49
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

I wish that I could take Bryan, Doug, CJ, Todd, Sebart and few others pattern planes designers and do like the Cardinals in Rome are going to do to elect the Pope. However, instead of electing a pope they will write a manual how to design and trim a pattern plane. No white smoke will go out until they agree in everything the write in that manual. Probably will take a century to complete the task.

Bryan,

A single question for you. I have seen many if your designs flying in the past 20 years or so. If I stand in front of the plane to check if really the motor is set at 0-0. I never been able to see that is really 0-0. I will agree that is difficult for me to see the down or up thrust but I am sure that the right thrust is been always there. Could you explain a little more how you get a 0-0 without been a contra powerered of course?

Thanks,
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:11 AM
  #50
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Default RE: Chip Hyde CG

I wish that I could take Bryan, Doug, CJ, Todd, Sebart and few others pattern planes designers and do like the Cardinals in Rome are going to do to elect the Pope. However, instead of electing a pope they will write a manual how to design and trim a pattern plane. No white smoke will go out until they agree in everything the write in that manual. Probably will take a century to complete the task.

Bryan,

A single question for you. I have seen many of your designs flying in the past 20 years or so. If I stand in front of the plane to check if is really set at 0-0. I never been able to verify and always all have some right thrust. I will agree that is difficult for me to see the down/up thrust but I am sure that the right thrust is always there. Another fact is that the nose ring always comes preset for right thrust. Could you explain a little more how you get a 0-0?

Thanks,
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