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  1. #1

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    P15 reverse 3 of 6 - pause or not at reversal?

    Hi guys,

    Quick question...after the first 3 points of the roll, do you reverse direction immediately or do you pause an equal length of time as the other points?

    thanks,
    Ken

  2. #2

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    From the judges guide:

    d) In all manoeuvres which have more than one continuous roll, the continuous rolls must have the same
    roll-rate. In all manoeuvres which have more than one part-roll, the part-rolls must have the same roll
    rate. Lines between consecutive part-rolls must be short and of equal length. Between consecutive
    continuous rolls or part-rolls in opposite direction there must be no line. Where there are continuous
    rolls and part-rolls within one manoeuvre, the roll-rate for the part- rolls does not necessarily have to
    be the same as the roll-rate for the continuous rolls.

  3. #3

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    Ken, this is like the quandry that the P13 3 of 4 point rolls in opposite direction caused. As Dsnow says there shouldn't be a pause at the change over.

    I started flying it like this as thats what I was told to do, even though in my mind it looked goofy (the beat of the rolls was out 1..2..3,1..2..3.

    After everyone saw Steve flying it with the pause, if you flew it without, it was probably perceived as a downgrade, so I started doing it with the pause, 1..2..3..1..2..3..

    Are you flying the P this (next) year?
    Go knife edge your cub!

  4. #4

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    Thanks for the clarification, Dave! Much appreciated.

    Hey G, yup, I'll be flying P15 next year!

    cheers,
    Ken

  5. #5

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    Awesome, you're more than good enough.

    Maybe we should get together occasionally and practice
    Go knife edge your cub!

  6. #6
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    Unfortunately,I think the general perception from our peer judging is to "go with what you know," so flying the maneuver correctly, as it should be...., goes out the window for pretty points at times. To save the few points "One" may be loosing on that maneuver, simply adjust to the judging and educate those sitting in the judges chairs. I have on occasion printed out the P/F sequence's Power Point presentation back in 2008-2009 and put it on the table prior to the contest starting. Also, cover it in the pilots meeting and make sure everyone is aware of the nuances of a particular maneuver, especially if it has options. I was recently zeroed (twice) for flying the option in the new P-15.8 and make sure the judges know you’re flying the option (indication the judge had no idea there was an option). I have found that at most contests, pretty points rule and the technical things....., not so much! However, not always the case, but it has an influence most of the time, i.e. rolling segments’ in rolling loops or rolling circles of variations. There are other obvious things that come into play, but we will leave that alone.

    EXAMPLE:I personally have seen popular (not myself) FAI guys at local contests fly maneuver’s wrong (not only FAI either)...., like a 3/4 roll instead of 3 or 4 points andget 9-10's and I come out with a two point down grade. I have also been on the receiving end too, LOL. Here is a dead give-away a judge has no idea of the FAI sequence and the nuances in particular maneuver;..... "You walk up to the line, stand in the box to fly the P or the F and the judge behind you asks the caller to call the maneuver out load" and that is an indication that judge has not studied the sequence he/she is about to score! That makes every part of P-15.7 open to a wide variety of judging, as it's 3-1/6 rolls reversed and not 3- 1/4rolls reversed or any variation in between (that really doesn’t apply to unknowns, I'd rather a judge ask for it to be called out loud).


    Don't be affraid to be an educator, as those without a voice are never heard!

    Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Rendegade View Post
    Ken, this is like the quandry that the P13 3 of 4 point rolls in opposite direction caused. As Dsnow says there shouldn't be a pause at the change over.

    I started flying it like this as thats what I was told to do, even though in my mind it looked goofy (the beat of the rolls was out 1..2..3,1..2..3.

    After everyone saw Steve flying it with the pause, if you flew it without, it was probably perceived as a downgrade, so I started doing it with the pause, 1..2..3..1..2..3..

    Are you flying the P this (next) year?
    Last edited by BHolsten; 11-26-2013 at 07:56 AM.

  7. #7
    apereira's Avatar
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    The sporting code is very clear, no pause on opposite rolls, including snaps, look at the videos on youtube from Onda for example, but from a WC FAI judge, he said as long as there is a pause much shorter than those on the points you are fine, and that should be the way.

    Regards

  8. #8

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    Wait, a pause is ok, but the rules state that no pause should be evident?
    Go knife edge your cub!

  9. #9
    apereira's Avatar
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    Yes, but think about it, you have to have a positive stop on the rolling, and there are those who fly the way it is written in forums and those who listen to judges and fly the way they want, so it is up to every pilot to do either way, but he did not mean a Gerhard Mayr stop, actually something more reasonable.

    Anyway, as I stated before, the rules say no pause, and one of the top ranked judges on the SA WC said as long as it is shorter in time it's ok, so everbody does it the way they like, this is an appreciative sport, and appreciative means to me, the way someone likes it to see it....
    Last edited by apereira; 11-26-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsnow View Post
    From the judges guide:.... Between consecutive
    continuous rolls or part-rolls in opposite direction there must be no line ....
    That's handy to know, for two years I've been flying a 2 of 4-point in opposite (in a schedule for a lower class) with a pause and nobody's said anything. I'll re-read the relevent judges description, but if the above is the rule for FAI, then it probably should be applied in the lower classes to avoid bad habbits and wrong assumptions rising through the ranks.

  11. #11
    drac1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
    That's handy to know, for two years I've been flying a 2 of 4-point in opposite (in a schedule for a lower class) with a pause and nobody's said anything. I'll re-read the relevent judges description, but if the above is the rule for FAI, then it probably should be applied in the lower classes to avoid bad habbits and wrong assumptions rising through the ranks.
    I was doing the same Brett, that's where the "bounce" comes into it. Hard to get right, but looks really good when done correctly. Even now in F3A no one points these small things out to me.

    I've looked through the P15 and F15 power point presentation now. It's amazing how many F3A flyers are doing things wrong.

    There is a copy of the presentations on the APA web site.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  12. #12

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    Hi all,
    Have been judging FAI schedules for a few years now in theUK. Our Aerobatic Association thought long & hard about the ‘pause’ between reversing roll elements in the P-13 & the same situation arises in P-15, particularly in the P-15.07 - Roll combo, with 3 1/6 rolls, 3 1/6 rolls opposite.
    In fact in the Sporting Code, I don’t think a ‘pause’ ismentioned – but a line is (or specifically – NO line between the reversed elements in a rolling manoeuvre)
    I don’t represent the Association, but my problem, as judge is this: I always like to see the last element before the reversal ‘pointed’ or completed –then I know the model ‘made’ the 180 position. If the model ‘bounces’or rebounds quickly –I then have to decide whether the above is true. Also a rebound can look untidy & a change in roll rate.

    Just to conclude – if I see a definite line because the model has delayed the reversed roll & the pilot has had a brief rest(!) before reversal (we’ve all done it!) – I would downgrade. If I see the ‘point’without a noticeable line before the model reverses – no downgrade.

    You have to remember also, that for a model to reverse - the model has to STOP if only for a nano-second. Thus if the model has groundspeed –there MUST be a line, visible or not. The only circumstance where there is no line is where there is no groundspeed & the model is stationary to the observer.

    Also, I have seen top International competitors exercise theabove option in noticeably completing the roll properly before reversing.
    I don’t think they would risk downgrades.

    Regards
    Stuart
    Last edited by Stuart Mellor; 11-28-2013 at 03:21 PM.

  13. #13
    My interpretation has always been if the rolls are continuous (i.e. not a hesitation or point roll) the the reversal should be immediate (giving the bounce effect if you want to call it that). If we are talking about hesitation rolls or point rolls in reversal. the pause between the roll reverse elements should be equal to all the other pauses during the hesitation points in that maneuver.

  14. #14

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    Sheesh! Maybe we need someone from CIAM to pin this down properly.
    Go knife edge your cub!

  15. #15
    drac1's Avatar
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    The rules specifically say there should be no straight line on the reversal. Therefore no hesitation.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  16. #16

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    The problem with that is each element must be defined. If there is no pause to show the element completed, then there is no realistic way to judge accuracy of the element. Coming from a standpoint of judging full-scale aerobatics, there is generally a pause, but not a long line drawn. I think the powers-that-be have it wrong in FAI currently, but that's just my opinion.

    That doesn't even begin to address the silliness of trying to judge a 120 degree point.
    Last edited by Doug Cronkhite; 12-02-2013 at 12:20 AM.
    Doug Cronkhite

  17. #17
    drac1's Avatar
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    As soon as the reversal starts, that is when the first element is completed and the next element begins. It is now that the judge decides whether the reversal point was accurate or not and scores accordingly.
    Even if there is supposed to be a hesitation, the judge still has to decide whether the reversal point was accurate.
    Most will hesitate because it is easier to do the reversal that way. Flying correctly starts with the judges. If the judges downgrade for a hesitation, then the flyers will start performing the reversal with no hesitation. As they should.
    Just because a top level pilot performs a maneuver a certain way, it doesn't make it correct if it isn't how the maneuver description says it should be.
    Full scale flying technique, really has nothing to do with how we fly pattern.
    Judging a120 degree point isn't really any different from judging a15 or 30 degree downgrade.
    Last edited by drac1; 12-02-2013 at 02:34 AM.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  18. #18

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    I'm just wondering about the drive behind the lack of pause?

    Is it just to hurt the Mode 2 guys, because I fly mode one and the worst thing I can do flicking the aileron stick from one side to the other is bump the throttle a bit...

  19. #19

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    Just fly it using your stick plane. You will find that is perfectly possible to do it without a pause or a line when reversing the rolls. If I am judging I like to practice the sequence with the stick plane. This helps a lot to find important details .
    Vicente \"Vince\" Bortone

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
    I'm just wondering about the drive behind the lack of pause?

    Is it just to hurt the Mode 2 guys, because I fly mode one and the worst thing I can do flicking the aileron stick from one side to the other is bump the throttle a bit...
    Hi,
    The answer to this question is the key to this.
    The roll component where a reversal is specified is considered 'a single component'.
    Yes it is a skill test.

    Following the lead of a pilot ,or judge, who have it wrong is just a case of the 'blind leading the blind'.

    Brian

  21. #21
    drac1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious power View Post
    Hi,
    The answer to this question is the key to this.
    The roll component where a reversal is specified is considered 'a single component'.
    Yes it is a skill test.

    Following the lead of a pilot ,or judge, who have it wrong is just a case of the 'blind leading the blind'.

    Brian
    I agree 100% Brian.

    But I still think that most of the problem is with the judges. If a pilot gets downgraded because there is a hesitation, they will soon start flying correctly.
    There also needs to be feedback to the pilots as to why they are being downgraded. Once this starts to happen, we will get manoeuvres being flown correctly.
    Last edited by drac1; 12-04-2013 at 04:41 AM.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  22. #22

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    That assumes the judges interpretation of the rule book is correct. The reason I brought up the full-scale world before, is a hesitation between elements is not considered a line. Apparently, in F3A, it is. It's a shame really, as the slight pause before reversing direction is more pleasing to the eye.
    Doug Cronkhite

  23. #23
    drac1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Cronkhite View Post
    That assumes the judges interpretation of the rule book is correct. The reason I brought up the full-scale world before, is a hesitation between elements is not considered a line. Apparently, in F3A, it is. It's a shame really, as the slight pause before reversing direction is more pleasing to the eye.
    I don't see how that particular one can be misinterpreted, but anything is possible.
    Done correctly the immediate reversal or bounce looks really good. That is where the skill comes into it.
    There is no such thing as too much power.


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