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Biplane VS Monoplane

Old 02-09-2014, 06:26 PM
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Edge 540
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Default Biplane VS Monoplane

Ok.... This has been on my mind for a while now. What are your thoughts on biplanes taking more and more interest in the pattern world ? Other than more drag, and more square inches, what greater positives do they hold over mono's. The full scale arena used to be dominated by biplanes, but over the past 15-20 years monoplanes have taken the reigns. I would just like to know your thoughts on this matter.
Old 02-09-2014, 07:25 PM
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Sequence driven in reality. Bipes have definite advantages in F3A over monos particularly in F sequences. They may offer some small advantage in AMA masters, slower pace being the key.. But in the lower classes, I'd stick with monos. They are challenging enuff to learn to set-up and learn to fly correctly and the sequences are less demanding meaning they don't need what a "good" bipe offers....can't take advantage......
Old 02-14-2014, 10:43 PM
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deanz406
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I am just getting interested in the classic style of pattern flying, and am getting help from a fellow club member who has flown pattern for many years. I know most do fly, or prefer to fly the typical low, or mid wing pattern ship. I wondered if some of u would chime in on knowing, or seeing anyone flying pattern with a biplane, and what were some of the types of bipes that they flew. I know I have seen articles many years ago about Lou Andrews and his famous Aeromaster bipe, and I think I remember there was a DeBolt Livewire bipe, and a plane called a J Bipe that was supposed to have been used in pattern. I do remember a fellow club member flying a Jungmeister, and another fellow with a Stampe SV4. Like me, they were satisfied with doing the basics, and were very smooth pilots. They liked these bipes because they said they flew excellent because of both wings being swept back.
At 70 yrs old, I don't think I'm going to do any competition things, I just want to try to perform some of the basic maneuvers, and follow the basic pattern routine. Everyone at our field and club who fly any kind of pattern routine, uses a Kaos, Dirty Birdi, Curare, etc, and I want to be a little different. I guess i just have a preference for a bipe, love the way they look and fly(just like yesteryear), and I usually am flying some kind of scale plane. I thought i would try to add a little pizazz to my flying itinerary, and see if i can learn something new. My enjoyment is for a fun day, relaxed flying, and nothing too frustrating- as well as wrecking a plane.
If anyone has knowledge, or remembers any of these planes, please do let us know what u have seen, or remember. I have a couple Aeromasters, and a Skybolt that I can learn the basic pattern with, and have a low wing plane designed by a local builder and flyer called a Tavis(I think his own name for it). I also have an Ultimate 120 that I want to install an OS 1.20 4 stroke in, but I'll try that one out after I can get the others mastered. If u know, or have seen a biplane in any form of competition, please let us know what plane, and mfgr of the kit. Thanks-- Dean


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Old 02-15-2014, 10:51 AM
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Aeromasters and Ultimates will work great for what you want to get out of your flying Dean. You should have lots of fun with either or both. Let me suggest that you build them as light as possible. The Aeromaster as originally designed by Andrews was built like a brick outhouse up front around the engine. Thick slabs of wood abounded. Yet, it was extremely weak just aft of the lower wing. I saw a few of them over the years break their fuses in half just aft of the lower wing. He used 3/32" sheet there and no additional reinforcement. You may want to reduce the beef up front a little but definitely add some 1/64" birch ply on the fuse sides just behind the lower wing's saddle. You don't want to add too much weight there of course, just enough to strengthen this weak area. You may compensate for the CG shift aft by building the tail feathers a little lighter. Good luck
Old 02-15-2014, 10:57 AM
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Hi Dean,
glad to hear you are interested in classic pattern and a biplane lover. I've been flying pattern since the early '70s when I was a young teenager. One of my earliest competitive airplanes was an Aeromaster which I have very fond memories of. I grew up in Massachussetts and was fortunate to meet Lou Andrews. He introduced himself to me after one of my flights at a contest and was very encouraging - a really nice guy!
Biplanes are a bit more work simply because of the 'extra' wing which adds some trimming complexities, but once you are happy with the airplane it is just a matter of practice, practice, practice. As for potential airplanes, the Aeromaster is a personal favorite and the Skybolt flies pretty well, too. One of the best biplanes from that era was the Pulsar, but it is long out of production. You might find a kit on eBay or at the Wrams show. Hopefully, it might be kitted again. Another design from the '70s is the Sunray which was published in R/C Modeler magazine (I don't know if they still distribute their plans). I built one and loved it - a great flying airplane. You mentioned the Stampe, Jungmeister and I'll add the Pitts and Great Lakes which are terrific looking bipes that fly well, though may not be perfectly suited to classic pattern aerobatics. Two more bipes, not to be overlooked, competed at the '89 F3A world championships; the Shamrock of Tobias Schulz and The Fyg Leaf of Tony Frackowiak. The Shamrock was kitted, though very hard to find at present. I would love to get a copy of the Fyg Leaf plans, myself, a great flying airplane that Tony flew with a YS 61 long stroke, but I would probably go with a YS 115 4-stroke. The final two bipes that I will note are the Goldberg Ultimate and the Marutaka Reed Falcon. The Ultimate is a great flying bipe and an easy build and kits appear regularly on ebay (I think there is one there now). The Reed Falcon is a very nice Japanese kit which is harder to find, but there was one on ebay about 2 months ago which never sold. Of course there are many ARFs available in various sizes, too. If you want the latest in F3A biplane design (in a kit) there is one available here in the US from InsightRC called the Harmony II as well as a Japanese kit, called the Accuracy, from Naruke Hobbies.
Good luck!
-Will
Old 02-16-2014, 11:26 PM
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Hi Matt, and Will-- Thanks for ur input, and ur insight. The 2 Aeromasters I have were built by a local fellow, who knew all the little weak points in the design, and did compensate for that weak area. He was a master builder, and used to build 6-8 at a time. He had a fantastic workshop, and designed all his own jigs to build in multiples. He had a bunch of guys that would take their kits to him, and he would do all the frame up work for them, at a very nominal fee. He had fuselage jigs, and wing jigs, and would do all the wood construction assembly, rib and spar alignment, and then start gluing. He did the same thing with the fuselages. He built hundreds before he died last year. We were all very saddened by the loss of him.

Both of mine are at just 6#, and I have a HB61PDP in the red and silver one, and a Supertigre 75 in the red WW1 plane. Both fly very well, and I enjoy them both. I'm getting the Skybolt ready, and since it's a little larger and heavier, I have a new OS 75 AX that should work, or I may opt for the OS 1.20 4 stroke for it. I do remember the Pulsar, and I missed an opportunity to pick one up last year(got outbid on epay). Thanks for the info on the Shamrock, and the Fyg Leaf- I'll look those up. I had a Pitts, but wasn't too crazy about it, and I'll definitely try out the Ultimate that I have, after getting some real practice time in on the others. I have plans for the Great Lakes, and will start cutting wood for it in the fall. I did have a crazy idea about doing a sort of Great Lakes abortion- I have a really old Aeromaster that I have stripped the covering from, and wanted to redesign the tail with the rounded Great Lakes configuration, making a little larger rudder, and since it has the slim nose, instead of the round one, make it like the inline version. It would be easy to glass up a cowl that would look fairly scale. Just a passing idea. I think the larger rounded rudder looks great, and would help greatly with knife edge flight. I'll keep u guys posted on my progress. It is my sincere hope that this miserable, relentless winter will soon be over. I know Matt knows what I mean- They are getting it worse than me. Many Thanks again fellows-- Dean
Old 02-17-2014, 06:36 AM
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I've had 5 Aeromasters, obviously a love affair. They fly great. Most guys overpower them. My latest is flying on a vintage ST .51 and has plenty of zip. Don't shy away from the Ultimate. It's a great "pure" flying machine. I fly and like a lot, my 1/3 scale Pitts. It's fun to fly, but not very precise. Too much coupling. I just started flying a 1.20 size Pitts Monster 12, Goldberg ARF I found. Great kit and great flyer. BUT, the best, was the Goldberg Bucker Jungman. Wish this one would come back. A tremendous flyer, the best of all so far. Could be flown very precise.
Old 02-17-2014, 08:10 AM
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I grew up in New England and needed winters to get any building done. When I moved to Wilmington,NC in 1989 I loved being able to fly year round (in shorts!); at least the days were shorter; so I could get some building done at night :-)
I forgot about the Goldberg Jungmann. Yes, another great bipe from them. I would love to get my hands on a kit, but I haven't seen one for sale or on eBay in ages (and very infrequently even then). Dick Hanson designed one for the TOC back around 1980, but I don't think he kitted it. Flew great, too.
Old 02-17-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flywilly
I grew up in New England and needed winters to get any building done. When I moved to Wilmington,NC in 1989 I loved being able to fly year round (in shorts!); at least the days were shorter; so I could get some building done at night :-)
I forgot about the Goldberg Jungmann. Yes, another great bipe from them. I would love to get my hands on a kit, but I haven't seen one for sale or on eBay in ages (and very infrequently even then). Dick Hanson designed one for the TOC back around 1980, but I don't think he kitted it. Flew great, too.

There was a company In the Salt lake area that kitted Hansen's Bucker. I had one. It was desgned to be very light for the power avaiable at the time, and the construction was very hybrid again for the time. I never built it, eventually gave it away. I remember talking to the guys from Goldberg at a long past Toledo show. Before they were bought. I ask about the Bucker. They told me it was probably their most unpopular kit. They said they made a first run of (i think) 150 kits and didn't sell 50, throwing the rest away??????? I had 3 of them. It was a superior flyer, too bad..

steve
Old 02-17-2014, 12:44 PM
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Hi Dean,
There is/was a bipe called Lady's Fancy II by Charlie Powell.
It likely qualifies as classic and I'd say plans can be had still.
It was originally designed for a 60 2 stroke.

Brian
Old 02-17-2014, 07:51 PM
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Will- Steve- and Brian, thanks for ur input and comments. Steve- You mentioned a Goldberg Jungmann, and I wanted to ask if that was a kit build, or did they offer an ARF. I ask, because last year there was a fellow from Fla who had one for sale here on this site. I just missed it, as someone else beat me to the punch. Having seen the pics he had posted, I made a copy of them for a reference. He did advertise it as a Goldberg, so I kept on the hunt for one. Well, last spring I went to the Lebanon, Pa Swap meet, not knowing how huge the venue was, and had my grocery list with me. Lo, and behold, I saw this little Bucker on a guys table, said he had a minor crash with it, and the only damage was to the cowl, and pulled the landing gear out. He had a tag on it with the caption "$20.00 for both". Well it was the exact plane I saw in the ad, do I just pulled out a $20, and handed it to him, I was so excited, I didn't even want to dicker the price. So, I picked up the fuse, and wings, and box of misc parts, and started to leave. He said "Wait a min", u have to take that plane too, both are $20.00. Next to it was a Goldberg Chipmunk, with only minor L/G damage. It was a lucky find, and i was just happy with the Bucker. My buddies just about fell over with my luck.
Now, here are a few pics of the Bucker, and i'm not sure who the mfgr is-- Goldberg, or someone else, as someone told me that Goldberg never offered the plane as an ARF. If u look at the construction, and materials used, it just makes me lean towards ARF, or did anyone offer a kit with the punched out wood like this has. Maybe one of u can ID the maker of this one. It has a 52" W/S. If anyone can recall this plane, with this color scheme as an ARF, please let me know. Thanks again fellows-- Dean
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:13 AM
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I purchased a bipe like that on here a few years ago. The only difference was it was yellow. It was smaller than the goldberg, it was only 40 size. Not sure of the manufacturer, it was sold by a dealer on here.
Old 02-18-2014, 03:36 AM
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The Goldberg Bucker was a kit, 65" wingspan (I think, memory is getting old). A couple of the Import ARF dealers had your Bucker for a while, both in white and yellow and blue. I almost bought one. Just never pulled the trigger.

There are a lot of clones of the Goldberg Chipmonk out there. If your 's is a Goldberg it is an execellent flier also.

steve
Old 02-18-2014, 03:43 AM
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That .40 sized Bucker Jungmann was a CMP offering distributed by Flyboy Models and Texas RC Planes. I picked up a version of each, one white and one yellow. Sadly, they are no longer available. There was even a 50cc version offered by Texas RC Planes.


I spoke with Bubba Spivey at Toledo right after Lanier bought Goldberg to see if there was any possibility the CGM Bucker would come back. Poor sales were its downfall, but plans were available. The plans do not show all, but they do show enough for a determined individual.

The Skybolt and Ultimate fly the classic patterns very well. I especially like them in windy conditions.
Old 02-18-2014, 03:07 PM
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Dean, you sound like the type of fellow that knows his way around the shop. Good luck with your re-creations.
Old 02-18-2014, 11:08 PM
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Hi again fellows-- Brian, I couldn't find any info or pics on the Charlie Powell Lady Fancy bipe, only a reference to RCM plans, and I do know they are having their issues from what I have heard and read about the plan services. Tim & takE, I think u got it right about Texas RC and CMP carrying that model, bummer that not too may Mfgrs are carrying any of the 40-60 size classic/scale bipes like the Bucker. Everyone seems to be drawn towards the Ultimate style, and I do understand because of the way they fly, and the individual pilots preference on planes. I know that there are scale kits still available, and I am an absolute fanatic about the Golden Era, and some of the most beautiful, and classic planes of that time- bipe, and monoplane. Steve, I'm going to definitely look for the Goldberg kit, and have seen them for sale occasionally. I'm going to the Lebanon, Pa swap meet in 2 weeks, and it's definitely on my grocery list.
Matt- I've been a builder for most of my RC life, and do enjoy the task, but the ARF industry has taken a lot of kit builders out of the picture. I guess with the technical age, and everyone wanting everything so soon, not too many into the task of learning to build.I see it a lot in our club, with the new breed of newbies coming into the hobby.
Well, I'll give u a glimpse of the future "AeroLakes" abortion that I'm going to undertake.



This is the pic of the donor Aeromaster that I will modify and convert to some resemblance of the Great Lakes 2T-1E. This is just before I stripped all the covering off. I have to remove the rudder and stab, and use them for an initial reference for size and shape of the new rudder and stab. After looking at the original pics, I may have to alter the wingtip shape to a little more rounded configuration, like the original. I'll keep u guys posted on progress, and post a few more pics. Once again, many thanks to all of u who are making this an interesting thread-- Dean
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:00 AM
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Hi Dean,
The Lady's Fancy was pretty progressive for the time ('70s) as it used a full cabin to support the upper wing and no interplant struts (if I remember correctly). I have the issue of RCM here somewhere. Good luck with your 'AeroLakes'. The Aeromaster was the starting point for a number lookalike biplanes. The Mini-Flite company kitted a sport scale version of the Bucker Jungmeister back in the '70s which was just a thinly disguised Aeromaster; so it flew quite well.
Here's another bipe kit to look for: the Northeast Aerodynamics Bel-Aire which was kitted in both 40 and 60 sizes. I had a 40 sized one with a piped OS 40VF which flew great and was clocked at slightly over 100mph (police radar). Northeast Aerodynamics was founded by a guy named Ernie LaChance who had worked for Lou Andrews at AAMCO; nice wood kits, but updated a bit from the original Andrews' designs.
-Will
Old 02-19-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by deanz406
Matt- I've been a builder for most of my RC life, and do enjoy the task, but the ARF industry has taken a lot of kit builders out of the picture. I guess with the technical age, and everyone wanting everything so soon, not too many into the task of learning to build.I see it a lot in our club, with the new breed of newbies coming into the hobby.
Dean
LOL...very few things frost my butt worse than some fellow who doesn't know how to glue two sticks together comes over to for a close look at my latest design and sez "who makes that ARF??? I'd love to get one........." Doh!! LOL
Old 02-22-2014, 11:28 PM
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Hi again fellows- I just wanted to drop a line, and give u an update. I am almost finished with the stripping of the old Monokote- just all those little, pesky pieces that just won't let go. I have the rudder and stab removed, and have made a drawing and pattern of the new rudder and stab on a manila folder. The wings stripped very cleanly, so that part is pretty much ready for a light sand, and look them over closely for structural integrity. I may cut the nose section of the fuselage completely off at the firewall, since it's just a bunch of balsa blocks. That will allow me to fab up a new motor mount for an inverted motor. I had another idea- I'm going to look at the shapes and nose cowls on some of the pattern plane designs, since a lot of them are shaped for an inverted motor, and see if i can find something close. Even at that, something close could be used as a mold for what I'm looking for.
On a side note, I do have a low wing pattern plane- it was just sitting in my spare room, behind a couple other planes. This one is a scratch designed, and built plane from the guy I was telling u about that did all the jig building. His own design, which he calls a Tavis. Don't know anything about the name, but to me, it just looks like all the rest. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice looking plane, and beautifully built, just looks like any other. I have a Webra Speed 61, and a Pumped w/Perry carb SuperTigre Blue head 60 that will fit in here. I do think I'll at least give it a try- I may even like it.
While I was digging through my boxes of stuff, looking through them for my balsa and lumber box, I ran across another really old plane. Been sitting on a shelf in the basement for 20 yrs or so. It had StarHawk on the outside. I completely forgot about this thing, so I opened it up, and it's an old bipe by a Co. called Thorpe. I brought it up, and laid it out on the kitchen table, and did a quick mock up to see what it actually looked like- kinda weird, but "Neato" in a way. It is completely painted, has sheeted foam core wings, and slab sided built up, and sheeted fuse. I may play with that one in the fall. Do any of you, or have any of u ever seen one of these StarHawks fly ?? I'll get some pics of the "AeroLakes" in a day or so. Dean


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Old 02-23-2014, 12:31 AM
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Steve Percifield
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I had both the Biplane like youirs and the low wing monoplane Starhawk. Mine ended up on the heavy side. And they flew that way, fast. Just Ok fliers. That yellow paint is also very brittle and will start to crack as soon as you get some engine vibration on it. I had it fall off in chuncks as it got some time on it.

Your pattern plane looks like it would be a good flyer. Looks like a Kaos wing, which is always good.

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