Knife edge fun
03-15-2014, 09:09 PM
#1
Thread Starter
03-16-2014, 11:14 AM
#3
Hi,
Whatever the cause might be, it has been clear for some time now that a lot of current designs have/had a yaw stability deficiency.
This had been discussed at some length on the contra thread in the context of the contra. As soon as I realised that the deficiency was in he designs I posted those thoughts on here.
However what I realised was that some designers were already moving to rectify that - Namely Suzuki, Seba and CPLR.
Now there are fin extensions and new large fins appearing all over the place.
The strakes, top and or bottom. have been around for some time - indeed some argue that cannalisers act as a dorsal fin/strake.
The fin/rudder group on the Accuracy (Naruke's latest offering) has to be seen (in hand) to be appreciated.
It will be interesting to see where all this goes.
Brian
Whatever the cause might be, it has been clear for some time now that a lot of current designs have/had a yaw stability deficiency.
This had been discussed at some length on the contra thread in the context of the contra. As soon as I realised that the deficiency was in he designs I posted those thoughts on here.
However what I realised was that some designers were already moving to rectify that - Namely Suzuki, Seba and CPLR.
Now there are fin extensions and new large fins appearing all over the place.
The strakes, top and or bottom. have been around for some time - indeed some argue that cannalisers act as a dorsal fin/strake.
The fin/rudder group on the Accuracy (Naruke's latest offering) has to be seen (in hand) to be appreciated.
It will be interesting to see where all this goes.
Brian
Last edited by serious power; 03-16-2014 at 11:18 AM.
03-16-2014, 12:20 PM
#4
Thread Starter
HA HA,
Well A lot of people posted the same " thoughts " here , Mostly guys flying the Contra,and blamed it on the SSS, Or have you forgot the debate , Maybe you had the moderators remove that part too! As I Recall , you never posted the cure
just contributed to the argument.
After teasing for a while with a few post ,I do recall posting the cure a long time ago to deaf ears and pointed to some of the designers that were late to the game Some you name here, some I also Helped behind the scenes . Yes there are lots of rudder fixes going on and ,I`m sure they learned it from you.lol
Now, I show proof on a existing model of a few simple fixes to make a awesome knife edge machine ,and as usual there are those who claim they already knew it! the same who claimed it was not possible. I can tell you there is a lot more going on there than just a few add on`s But I sure you already know
So, now you know Why I don`t post the fix for your Bipe you probably already know it, and want to see if I do!
you see, when you have to rely on others Experiences to design a airplane , your stuck with free knowledge , and you know what that`s worth
I`m waiting for your Video now
here is my video with some super slow ,no mix knife edge demonstrating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sei9OT4aB_U
Bryan
Well A lot of people posted the same " thoughts " here , Mostly guys flying the Contra,and blamed it on the SSS, Or have you forgot the debate , Maybe you had the moderators remove that part too! As I Recall , you never posted the cure
just contributed to the argument.After teasing for a while with a few post ,I do recall posting the cure a long time ago to deaf ears
and pointed to some of the designers that were late to the game Some you name here, some I also Helped behind the scenes . Yes there are lots of rudder fixes going on and ,I`m sure they learned it from you.lol Now, I show proof on a existing model of a few simple fixes to make a awesome knife edge machine ,and as usual there are those who claim they already knew it! the same who claimed it was not possible. I can tell you there is a lot more going on there than just a few add on`s But I sure you already know
So, now you know Why I don`t post the fix for your Bipe
you probably already know it, and want to see if I do! you see, when you have to rely on others Experiences to design a airplane , your stuck with free knowledge , and you know what that`s worth
I`m waiting for your Video now
here is my video with some super slow ,no mix knife edge demonstrating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sei9OT4aB_U
Bryan
Last edited by flyncajun; 03-16-2014 at 12:24 PM.
03-16-2014, 12:49 PM
#5
HA HA,
Well A lot of people posted the same " thoughts " here , Mostly guys flying the Contra,and blamed it on the SSS, Or have you forgot the debate , Maybe you had the moderators remove that part too! As I Recall , you never posted the cure just contributed to the argument.
After teasing for a while with a few post ,I do recall posting the cure a long time ago to deaf ears and pointed to some of the designers that were late to the game Some you name here, some I also Helped behind the scenes . Yes there are lots of rudder fixes going on and ,I`m sure they learned it from you.lol
Now, I show proof on a existing model of a few simple fixes to make a awesome knife edge machine ,and as usual there are those who claim they already knew it! the same who claimed it was not possible. I can tell you there is a lot more going on there than just a few add on`s But I sure you already know
So, now you know Why I don`t post the fix for your Bipe you probably already know it, and want to see if I do!
you see, when you have to rely on others Experiences to design a airplane , your stuck with free knowledge , and you know what that`s worth
I`m waiting for your Video now
here is my video with some super slow ,no mix knife edge demonstrating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sei9OT4aB_U
Bryan
Well A lot of people posted the same " thoughts " here , Mostly guys flying the Contra,and blamed it on the SSS, Or have you forgot the debate , Maybe you had the moderators remove that part too! As I Recall , you never posted the cure
just contributed to the argument.After teasing for a while with a few post ,I do recall posting the cure a long time ago to deaf ears
and pointed to some of the designers that were late to the game Some you name here, some I also Helped behind the scenes . Yes there are lots of rudder fixes going on and ,I`m sure they learned it from you.lol Now, I show proof on a existing model of a few simple fixes to make a awesome knife edge machine ,and as usual there are those who claim they already knew it! the same who claimed it was not possible. I can tell you there is a lot more going on there than just a few add on`s But I sure you already know
So, now you know Why I don`t post the fix for your Bipe
you probably already know it, and want to see if I do! you see, when you have to rely on others Experiences to design a airplane , your stuck with free knowledge , and you know what that`s worth
I`m waiting for your Video now
here is my video with some super slow ,no mix knife edge demonstrating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sei9OT4aB_U
Bryan
Hi Bryan,
In the words of Reagan , I believe it was ! ;; - There you go again
And there was me believing the no mix thing was sorted long before these latest 'band aids'
Brian
Edit; Bryan, I said 'realised' not discovered !
Last edited by serious power; 03-16-2014 at 02:48 PM. Reason: clarification
03-16-2014, 01:47 PM
#6
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Even more amazing the second time watching it. I'd love to have one of your airplanes someday, Bryan. Maybe I'll win the lottery next year and be able to have a glow Allure.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for sharing!
03-16-2014, 04:29 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Yea Thanks Ryan ,
I`ll let you take a spin on one at the Nats ! along with anybody else who want`s a ride.
LOL Brian Didn`t know you were a Reagan Fan, He said that when OLE Jimmy was Lying Think of me as Honest Abe!
Only YOU would not be impressed by the ability of something you cannot reproduce Easily ,Nor has anybody else done . and was told it could not be done. Having a no mix knife edge and a no mix ability to do complex square corners or triangle bottoms,at no to little throttle, are two different problems, And, Only a recent demand from our airframes. Of course I know, I know, you don't fly the F pattern or Unknowns so I`m sure you have not tried it or,trimmed for that! so Why would you be impressed!
The strakes have been on the Airplane since it was designed and something else I was badgered over So I guess that's accepted as normal now too
After researching who said What when, I guess you could not reproduce your claim ,or the moderators removed that too!
LOL take care.
A little talk from AC Glenn on the flight and effortless rudder power http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMfjiEQsfN0
Bryan
I`ll let you take a spin on one at the Nats ! along with anybody else who want`s a ride.
LOL Brian Didn`t know you were a Reagan Fan, He said that when OLE Jimmy was Lying
Think of me as Honest Abe!Only YOU would not be impressed by the ability of something you cannot reproduce Easily ,Nor has anybody else done . and was told it could not be done. Having a no mix knife edge and a no mix ability to do complex square corners or triangle bottoms,at no to little throttle, are two different problems, And, Only a recent demand from our airframes. Of course I know, I know, you don't fly the F pattern or Unknowns so I`m sure you have not tried it or,trimmed for that! so Why would you be impressed!
The strakes have been on the Airplane since it was designed and something else I was badgered over So I guess that's accepted as normal now too
After researching who said What when, I guess you could not reproduce your claim
,or the moderators removed that too!LOL take care.
A little talk from AC Glenn on the flight and effortless rudder power http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMfjiEQsfN0
Bryan
Last edited by flyncajun; 03-16-2014 at 08:28 PM.
03-16-2014, 06:21 PM
#8
' ,or the moderators removed that too! '
Bryan,
Not sure what the 'moderators' stuff is about - I'm a long way away from them here .
I don't think I'm the one staking the claims
Yet again I think you have skewed your perspective on all this. I'm finding this all a little Walter Mitty ish.
None the less I remain interested in where all this yaw stability work leads us.
BTW ; I think it was 2008 when CPLR first produced the Axiome with the large fin/rudder group and 2009/10 when Suzuki put a very large fin on the Midrex - I'm open to correction.
Reagan; No not a fan - just found him amusing
Brian
Bryan,
Not sure what the 'moderators' stuff is about - I'm a long way away from them here .
I don't think I'm the one staking the claims
Yet again I think you have skewed your perspective on all this. I'm finding this all a little Walter Mitty ish.
None the less I remain interested in where all this yaw stability work leads us.
BTW ; I think it was 2008 when CPLR first produced the Axiome with the large fin/rudder group and 2009/10 when Suzuki put a very large fin on the Midrex - I'm open to correction.
Reagan; No not a fan - just found him amusing
Brian
03-16-2014, 08:42 PM
#10
03-16-2014, 09:07 PM
#12
Hey Bryan, you need to bring it to Arvin to impress the folks. There's going to be some top notch pilots trying to establish their credentials and polish their resumes for the next WC team. I suspect they all would welcome a better airplane.
Jim O
Jim O
03-16-2014, 10:10 PM
#14
Thread Starter
Hi Jim I wish I could But I`m going to Thailand around that time (I really enjoyed last year) ,And , the airplane no longer exist. I had an on board battery fail and crashed. Now I`m building another one, Thanks to John Viollette I`ll be back in the air soon , and waiting for the glow Allure to arrive.
Ryan, the thrust issue is something I`ve tried to make people believe for a while, as expressed in my ramblings in the Contra thread. and elsewhere.I never used down and right trust until the Valiant.
I have very little in the Shinden don't remember exactly but no more than 3/4 deg right and 1/4 down (Most cannot even measure this) to keep the pump out of the cowling. The Valiant was the only Design I have that has a good deal of right and down from the Factory , It was in there because of wing and Fin,rudder size, But I learned it was not needed later and way over done But it does not really cause any issues to the trimming for "normal" flight. as the owners can attest to.
Most of the right thrust needed on current models is due to the stab halves being off with different incidences , Very common today. Some even do it on purpose ! causing a vicious cycle, Mostly tho because of airplanes built by young Women overseas nothing is aligned correctly and most never measure it, we have become Lazy. All of the rudder to throttle mixes save a couple models( that will go nameless) are due to this issue as well. {couple secrets for ya)
Although this will be overlooked as rambling By Most,the few who go and measure will find to their amazement How little adjustments make such a big difference ,and affect things that just counters accepted logic in pattern. if you can detect a click of elevator trim, how big of an effect do you think 1-6/4 " difference in the stab will make? this can be as much as 1/3 deg difference in the stabs incidence .
Bryan
Ryan, the thrust issue is something I`ve tried to make people believe for a while, as expressed in my ramblings in the Contra thread. and elsewhere.I never used down and right trust until the Valiant.
I have very little in the Shinden don't remember exactly but no more than 3/4 deg right and 1/4 down (Most cannot even measure this) to keep the pump out of the cowling. The Valiant was the only Design I have that has a good deal of right and down from the Factory , It was in there because of wing and Fin,rudder size, But I learned it was not needed later and way over done But it does not really cause any issues to the trimming for "normal" flight. as the owners can attest to.
Most of the right thrust needed on current models is due to the stab halves being off with different incidences , Very common today. Some even do it on purpose ! causing a vicious cycle, Mostly tho because of airplanes built by young Women overseas
nothing is aligned correctly and most never measure it, we have become Lazy. All of the rudder to throttle mixes save a couple models( that will go nameless) are due to this issue as well. {couple secrets for ya) Although this will be overlooked as rambling By Most,the few who go and measure will find to their amazement How little adjustments make such a big difference ,and affect things that just counters accepted logic in pattern. if you can detect a click of elevator trim, how big of an effect do you think 1-6/4 " difference in the stab will make? this can be as much as 1/3 deg difference in the stabs incidence .
Bryan
03-17-2014, 01:28 AM
#15
' Most of the right thrust needed on current models is due to the stab halves being off with different incidences , Very common today. Some even do it on purpose ! causing a vicious cycle, Mostly tho because of airplanes built by young Women overseas nothing is aligned correctly and most never measure it, we have become Lazy. All of the rudder to throttle mixes save a couple models( that will go nameless) are due to this issue as well. {couple secrets for ya) '
Bryan,
At least those 'girls' are consistent in the errors they make - I've yet to see one that needs left thrust
Brian
nothing is aligned correctly and most never measure it, we have become Lazy. All of the rudder to throttle mixes save a couple models( that will go nameless) are due to this issue as well. {couple secrets for ya) 'Bryan,
At least those 'girls' are consistent in the errors they make - I've yet to see one that needs left thrust
Brian
03-17-2014, 08:58 AM
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Nice vids Bryan. The impressive part is watching the plane carve-out of a downline, given its low power or idle at that point. In modifying the rudder, did you add a larger rudder with C'balance, or extend the rudder and fixed fin?
Getting the knife-edge loops started, then carving exits, is where the aerodynamic advancements really help.
Jim
Getting the knife-edge loops started, then carving exits, is where the aerodynamic advancements really help.
Jim
03-17-2014, 09:35 AM
#18
Thread Starter
Hi Jim,
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
03-19-2014, 09:11 AM
#20
Senior Member
Hi Jim,
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
If I showed you the treatment of my Shinden's fin and rudder, you would chuckle....and appreciate it!
BTW- the version I received did have 3/4 right built in. I haven't measured down. I plan on removing all right thrust tho. A small strake up front is all it takes.
03-19-2014, 06:27 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Cool Matt!
Down is .-25 on that version. 1/64" shim will take it out but,No need to, you won`t feel it anywhere
I`m Looking forward to seeing it.
Bryan
Down is .-25 on that version. 1/64" shim will take it out but,No need to, you won`t feel it anywhere
I`m Looking forward to seeing it.
Bryan
03-23-2014, 12:39 PM
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Hi Jim,
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
The Rudder has a half inch addition to the top, But with a counter ballance cut into the fin to improve the blow back issues ,and a 1/2 " added to the top rear tapered to nothing mid rudder.
The ability for the airplane to carve a knife edge line from a downline with no throttle Like in my flight video ,takes perfect setup and has more to do with the setup, than the Rudder additions. it`s like balancing a bowling ball on a razorblade! It`s cool to watch But almost unbelievable when you fly it. AC was laughing on his first flight,,
It will do more than you expect it will with ease. It`s Like driving My 350Z the harder you push it, the more it likes it! The airplane has always been great on knife edge but the magic was finding the perfect balance, for hard rudder aplication mix elimination.
Just imagine What a bipe could do!
Bryan
Is this back to the future? I seem to remember the original Valiant having a counter balance on the rudder. I note that Scott Kay's Valiants don't have the counter balance...
Great to see someone pushing the development of F3A models.
Cheers,
Jason.
03-23-2014, 04:25 PM
#23
Thread Starter
Hi Jason, Thanks.
Yes I`ve had a few with different rudders and Strakes, from the begining , But the kit only came like the one Scott has.
The proto was cut and chopped so many ways I can`t remember what it looks like now ( I gave it to a friend)
If you can`t explore your design that`s current to it`s utmost potential, you can`t find what to improve,change, or redesign for the next Design, So, I do a lot ! of field and shop work. Some times Brett just shakes his Head and Laughs
But, it`s how I learn, And usually Brett recieves the benefits so he don`t shake his head too much anymore ,,
He just won`t let me experiment with his LOL
Bryan
Yes I`ve had a few with different rudders and Strakes, from the begining , But the kit only came like the one Scott has.
The proto was cut and chopped so many ways I can`t remember what it looks like now ( I gave it to a friend)
If you can`t explore your design that`s current to it`s utmost potential, you can`t find what to improve,change, or redesign for the next Design, So, I do a lot ! of field and shop work. Some times Brett just shakes his Head and Laughs
But, it`s how I learn, And usually Brett recieves the benefits
so he don`t shake his head too much anymore ,,He just won`t let me experiment with his LOL
Bryan
Last edited by flyncajun; 03-23-2014 at 08:21 PM.
03-23-2014, 06:15 PM
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Hi Jason, Thanks.
Yes I`ve had a few with different rudders and Strakes, from the begining , But the kit only came like the one Scott has.
The proto was cut and chopped so many ways I can`t remember what it looks like now ( I gave it to a friend)
If you can`t explore your design that`s current to it`s utmost potential, you can`t find what to improve,change, or redesign for the next Design, So, I do a lot ! of field and shop work. Some times Brett just shakes his Head and Laughs
But, it`s how I learn, And usually Brett recieves the benefits so he don`t shake his head to much anymore ,,
He just don`t let me experiment with his LOL
Bryan
Yes I`ve had a few with different rudders and Strakes, from the begining , But the kit only came like the one Scott has.
The proto was cut and chopped so many ways I can`t remember what it looks like now ( I gave it to a friend)
If you can`t explore your design that`s current to it`s utmost potential, you can`t find what to improve,change, or redesign for the next Design, So, I do a lot ! of field and shop work. Some times Brett just shakes his Head and Laughs
But, it`s how I learn, And usually Brett recieves the benefits
so he don`t shake his head to much anymore ,,He just don`t let me experiment with his LOL
Bryan
Couldn't imagine taking to a model with a hacksaw or the like :-)
Having said that, the only way to push the boundaries and develop things is to do just that i.e. have a hacksaw or dremel party.... lol
Cheers,
Jason.
