Winter is here.
01-16-2015, 10:43 AM
#26
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=serious power;11962806]
I was thinking of doing both, have just enough rudder and increasing the expo. I cut the rudder throw on the second flight by about 40% and of course it wasn't enough for stall turns. I would like to get a combination that would be good for all maneuvers so I wouldn't need to be throwing switches. In the old days we used to switch rudder rates with throttle but I'm not sure that is a good idea the way we use throttle these days. What scheme do you use?
Jim
Thanks Brian, I can tell I'm going to enjoy it. It will take a little getting use to it. I did half a KE loop the first time I tried to fly knife edge. No wind yet, the air was smooth as glass. '
Hi Jim,
Yes the combo of the rudder power of the bipe (especially in KE lift) and the yaw 'instability' of the contra has to be experienced to be understood.
Just start dialling down the rudder throw in 'normal' mode and keep reducing until you are sure it's not enough - then add back some and go from there.
You will be surprised at how little you end up with.
Leaving too much throw and then using huge expo %'s is not a good solution.
Brian
Hi Jim,
Yes the combo of the rudder power of the bipe (especially in KE lift) and the yaw 'instability' of the contra has to be experienced to be understood.
Just start dialling down the rudder throw in 'normal' mode and keep reducing until you are sure it's not enough - then add back some and go from there.
You will be surprised at how little you end up with.
Leaving too much throw and then using huge expo %'s is not a good solution.
Brian
Jim
01-16-2015, 11:17 AM
#27
Hi Jim,
That's why I said 'normal' mode !??
Yes you now have a dilemma.
As you approach the stall, stall turns and or spins, the extra effectiveness of the bipe rudder fades to more like normal.
I just had to use modes for this stuff so that in 'normal' mode I could handle the rudder power and yaw sensitivity of the set up.
Niall, who flies the same Accuracy/contra combo as you, had to do the same.
Even with reduced rudder I still use expo.
Brian
That's why I said 'normal' mode !??
Yes you now have a dilemma.
As you approach the stall, stall turns and or spins, the extra effectiveness of the bipe rudder fades to more like normal.
I just had to use modes for this stuff so that in 'normal' mode I could handle the rudder power and yaw sensitivity of the set up.
Niall, who flies the same Accuracy/contra combo as you, had to do the same.
Even with reduced rudder I still use expo.
Brian
01-22-2015, 05:42 PM
#28
Thread Starter
Hi Jim,
That's why I said 'normal' mode !??
Yes you now have a dilemma.
As you approach the stall, stall turns and or spins, the extra effectiveness of the bipe rudder fades to more like normal.
I just had to use modes for this stuff so that in 'normal' mode I could handle the rudder power and yaw sensitivity of the set up.
Niall, who flies the same Accuracy/contra combo as you, had to do the same.
Even with reduced rudder I still use expo.
Brian
That's why I said 'normal' mode !??
Yes you now have a dilemma.
As you approach the stall, stall turns and or spins, the extra effectiveness of the bipe rudder fades to more like normal.
I just had to use modes for this stuff so that in 'normal' mode I could handle the rudder power and yaw sensitivity of the set up.
Niall, who flies the same Accuracy/contra combo as you, had to do the same.
Even with reduced rudder I still use expo.
Brian
The high rate rudder worked great when practicing stall turns. Of course I forgot to switch to high rate many times when flying stall turns in P-15. I'm thinking about a push button on the top of the rudder stick. What do you think?
Jim
01-23-2015, 02:51 AM
#29
Hi Jim,
In 'normal' mode I set low rate so that I can only just gently lift the nose in KE with rudder. In other words if I am a little late (behind the model) with rudder application I have enough rudder power to recover a slightly dropping line.
This is not enough to do the KE humpty in all conditions. So in 'normal' mode I select a high rate rudder for this manoeuvre.
For stall turns and spins I have all the rudder that I can get. I use this especially in spins and most of it in stall turns. Again if my timing is a little late I will bring it all in to execute the stall turn. For spins I use little (or no) aileron. Maybe just leaning on the stick a little.
My model is put away as 'Winter IS here' , so I cannot take measurements for you.
However this will be very close.;
Normal mode rud,, throw ; 8mm each way. Say 40% expo
Normal mode high rate rud, throw ; 12 to 14mm each way. Say 55% expo maybe 60% (I use this for the humpty only.)
Stall mode ; All that is available. Say 70 to 80% expo and this 'high rate' is only active at low throttle (say the bottom 20% of stick travel - though this is tricky to learn)
I use modes as i can have multiple subtle differences between modes.
The thing with remembering the switches will take a while but it comes in time and with practice. Memory works by association so once your mind starts to associate mode with manoeuvre you'll be sorted.
I have a 3 position switch on the top of my throttle stick. (I don't think holding down a stick top push button while trying to manipulate the stick would be good.)
This has ; Normal mode, roll mode and stall mode.
I use the roll mode for the long horizontal rolls/roll combos. These, typically, are critically judged and I use this mode to limit throttle range and to set mixes specifically for the KE components. I also use reduced aileron and elevator in this mode, again 'just enough'.
Brian
In 'normal' mode I set low rate so that I can only just gently lift the nose in KE with rudder. In other words if I am a little late (behind the model) with rudder application I have enough rudder power to recover a slightly dropping line.
This is not enough to do the KE humpty in all conditions. So in 'normal' mode I select a high rate rudder for this manoeuvre.
For stall turns and spins I have all the rudder that I can get. I use this especially in spins and most of it in stall turns. Again if my timing is a little late I will bring it all in to execute the stall turn. For spins I use little (or no) aileron. Maybe just leaning on the stick a little.
My model is put away as 'Winter IS here'
, so I cannot take measurements for you.However this will be very close.;
Normal mode rud,, throw ; 8mm each way. Say 40% expo
Normal mode high rate rud, throw ; 12 to 14mm each way. Say 55% expo maybe 60% (I use this for the humpty only.)
Stall mode ; All that is available. Say 70 to 80% expo and this 'high rate' is only active at low throttle (say the bottom 20% of stick travel - though this is tricky to learn)
I use modes as i can have multiple subtle differences between modes.
The thing with remembering the switches will take a while but it comes in time and with practice. Memory works by association so once your mind starts to associate mode with manoeuvre you'll be sorted.
I have a 3 position switch on the top of my throttle stick. (I don't think holding down a stick top push button while trying to manipulate the stick would be good.)
This has ; Normal mode, roll mode and stall mode.
I use the roll mode for the long horizontal rolls/roll combos. These, typically, are critically judged and I use this mode to limit throttle range and to set mixes specifically for the KE components. I also use reduced aileron and elevator in this mode, again 'just enough'.
Brian
Last edited by serious power; 01-23-2015 at 02:56 AM.
01-23-2015, 12:54 PM
#30
Thread Starter
Hi Jim,
In 'normal' mode I set low rate so that I can only just gently lift the nose in KE with rudder. In other words if I am a little late (behind the model) with rudder application I have enough rudder power to recover a slightly dropping line.
This is not enough to do the KE humpty in all conditions. So in 'normal' mode I select a high rate rudder for this manoeuvre.
For stall turns and spins I have all the rudder that I can get. I use this especially in spins and most of it in stall turns. Again if my timing is a little late I will bring it all in to execute the stall turn. For spins I use little (or no) aileron. Maybe just leaning on the stick a little.
My model is put away as 'Winter IS here' , so I cannot take measurements for you.
However this will be very close.;
Normal mode rud,, throw ; 8mm each way. Say 40% expo
Normal mode high rate rud, throw ; 12 to 14mm each way. Say 55% expo maybe 60% (I use this for the humpty only.)
Stall mode ; All that is available. Say 70 to 80% expo and this 'high rate' is only active at low throttle (say the bottom 20% of stick travel - though this is tricky to learn)
I use modes as i can have multiple subtle differences between modes.
The thing with remembering the switches will take a while but it comes in time and with practice. Memory works by association so once your mind starts to associate mode with manoeuvre you'll be sorted.
I have a 3 position switch on the top of my throttle stick. (I don't think holding down a stick top push button while trying to manipulate the stick would be good.)
This has ; Normal mode, roll mode and stall mode.
I use the roll mode for the long horizontal rolls/roll combos. These, typically, are critically judged and I use this mode to limit throttle range and to set mixes specifically for the KE components. I also use reduced aileron and elevator in this mode, again 'just enough'.
Brian
In 'normal' mode I set low rate so that I can only just gently lift the nose in KE with rudder. In other words if I am a little late (behind the model) with rudder application I have enough rudder power to recover a slightly dropping line.
This is not enough to do the KE humpty in all conditions. So in 'normal' mode I select a high rate rudder for this manoeuvre.
For stall turns and spins I have all the rudder that I can get. I use this especially in spins and most of it in stall turns. Again if my timing is a little late I will bring it all in to execute the stall turn. For spins I use little (or no) aileron. Maybe just leaning on the stick a little.
My model is put away as 'Winter IS here'
, so I cannot take measurements for you.However this will be very close.;
Normal mode rud,, throw ; 8mm each way. Say 40% expo
Normal mode high rate rud, throw ; 12 to 14mm each way. Say 55% expo maybe 60% (I use this for the humpty only.)
Stall mode ; All that is available. Say 70 to 80% expo and this 'high rate' is only active at low throttle (say the bottom 20% of stick travel - though this is tricky to learn)
I use modes as i can have multiple subtle differences between modes.
The thing with remembering the switches will take a while but it comes in time and with practice. Memory works by association so once your mind starts to associate mode with manoeuvre you'll be sorted.
I have a 3 position switch on the top of my throttle stick. (I don't think holding down a stick top push button while trying to manipulate the stick would be good.)
This has ; Normal mode, roll mode and stall mode.
I use the roll mode for the long horizontal rolls/roll combos. These, typically, are critically judged and I use this mode to limit throttle range and to set mixes specifically for the KE components. I also use reduced aileron and elevator in this mode, again 'just enough'.
Brian
This has turned out to be an enlightening conversation for me. I can't thank you enough. I believe you have saved me a lot of time. When you only fly once a week it takes a long time to get a new plane sorted out. My low rate setting was about the same as your normal high rate setting. Yes it did the knife edge loop but I must admit there were a few times I said to myself during rolls on 45 degree lines that I'd be better off not using rudder. I never would have guessed how little rudder would be optimum for normal flight.
I decided to set up a three position rate switch for now using your data until I get the right amount of throw for each condition. Eventually I think I'll make an auto stall mode using logic switches (less than x% throttle and greater than x% rudder).
I love this stuff, Jim
01-23-2015, 01:58 PM
#31
Jim,
You're welcome.
The contra/bipe ,and to some extent a contra/mono, is a whole new ball game for F3A.
It just is different and is best approached in a slightly different way so as to get an optimum set up.
I'm doing other stuff within these same modes/conditions but I didn't want to scare you off.
One example, using logic's, is a high (quite high) tick over for stall turns. In the 'stall mode' this is in play but when in this mode the high rate elevator is selected for spins the tick over returns to normal (none or very low).
It's worth taking time to think about what you want to achieve, manoeuvre by manoeuvre, then work towards that with the radio set up. Though it should be kept as simple as possible - workload wise.
Yes, all good fun.
Brian
You're welcome.
The contra/bipe ,and to some extent a contra/mono, is a whole new ball game for F3A.
It just is different and is best approached in a slightly different way so as to get an optimum set up.
I'm doing other stuff within these same modes/conditions but I didn't want to scare you off
.One example, using logic's, is a high (quite high) tick over for stall turns. In the 'stall mode' this is in play but when in this mode the high rate elevator is selected for spins the tick over returns to normal (none or very low).
It's worth taking time to think about what you want to achieve, manoeuvre by manoeuvre, then work towards that with the radio set up. Though it should be kept as simple as possible - workload wise.
Yes, all good fun.
Brian
01-26-2015, 02:46 PM
#32
Thread Starter
Brian,
If you ever watched Andrew Jesky's video you would see he is constantly throwing switches during maneuvers (actually hear it, as he is doing it so fast). Then again he flies six flights a day, six days a week so it can be done. However, I try my best to minimize the switching during a flight.
A bunch of us have tried the throttle trick during stall turns. We were actually switching the low throttle setting when the rudder was applied. Then one day a guy messed up his Galactic as he was taxiing to the runway. He didn't have a switch in the right place and when he tried to turn, the plane ran into the fence. I had set mine up with an audio warning when my rudder to throttle was active. I guess I switched planes before I was sold on the idea. From what I've seen so far I don't believe it is required on the Acuracy. We'll see.
I believe I have set up a series of flight modes all switched with the sticks so I won't need to throw any switches during a maneuver. Except your high rate normal mode, I haven't figured out how to do that without a switch. Seems like there should be one rudder curve that would cover the range.
I can't wait to get out and try my new setup. Too bad we don't have better simulators.
Jim
If you ever watched Andrew Jesky's video you would see he is constantly throwing switches during maneuvers (actually hear it, as he is doing it so fast). Then again he flies six flights a day, six days a week so it can be done. However, I try my best to minimize the switching during a flight.
A bunch of us have tried the throttle trick during stall turns. We were actually switching the low throttle setting when the rudder was applied. Then one day a guy messed up his Galactic as he was taxiing to the runway. He didn't have a switch in the right place and when he tried to turn, the plane ran into the fence. I had set mine up with an audio warning when my rudder to throttle was active. I guess I switched planes before I was sold on the idea. From what I've seen so far I don't believe it is required on the Acuracy. We'll see.
I believe I have set up a series of flight modes all switched with the sticks so I won't need to throw any switches during a maneuver. Except your high rate normal mode, I haven't figured out how to do that without a switch. Seems like there should be one rudder curve that would cover the range.
I can't wait to get out and try my new setup. Too bad we don't have better simulators.
Jim
