Painted wing, stabs and advanced graphics
01-25-2016, 08:10 PM
#252
Thread Starter
I said heavy, but they were probably more like medium. I usually wait about fifteen to twenty minutes at least between coats. In fact I am setting here right now waiting for a coat of clear to set before I shoot the next on the last wing for the Austral.
Pat
01-25-2016, 08:35 PM
#253
Thread Starter
Ricardo,
I said heavy, but they were probably more like medium. I usually wait about fifteen to twenty minutes at least between coats. In fact I am setting here right now waiting for a coat of clear to set before I shoot the next on the last wing for the Austral.
Pat
I said heavy, but they were probably more like medium. I usually wait about fifteen to twenty minutes at least between coats. In fact I am setting here right now waiting for a coat of clear to set before I shoot the next on the last wing for the Austral.
Pat
I just shot a few pictures of the finished fuselage to try and give you guys an idea of the level of gloss I was able to achieve with the new System 51 rubbing compounds. Let me tell you the stuff is incredible. The pictures don't do it justice. I have only been able to achieve this level of gloss and depth one other time and it took days of work. This stuff is effortless and I mean minutes versus hours of work. If you have been intimidated by doing a cut and buff finish or had problems, this is your answer....System 51.
Like I said, the pictures are not even close to what it really looks like. I think when I get it all together and in the sun (if we ever see it again), it will show off the gloss and depth a lot better.
http://www.coastairbrush.com/products.asp?cat=5
01-26-2016, 07:16 AM
#254
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Pat,
Again it looks spectacular!
So now I have another question. When shooting the fuselage with the clear. Do you have the fuse mounted on some type of rotisserie, or hang it from a ceiling? Do you have any photos showing this set-up?
Kerry
Again it looks spectacular!
So now I have another question. When shooting the fuselage with the clear. Do you have the fuse mounted on some type of rotisserie, or hang it from a ceiling? Do you have any photos showing this set-up?
Kerry
01-26-2016, 09:34 AM
#255
Thread Starter
If you go back to page 10 and near the bottom you will find a picture of the rotisserie I built. The front isn't showing, but it's the same as the back except it has a hole for the dowel and a lag bolt from the top to lock it i place. The back part has an aluminum bracket that screws into the tail wheel mounting holes. It works fine, but I am going to rework the back part so it will rotate off of the stab tube. It's a little scary when you rotate it on it's side just having the plane hanging off of two little screws in the fuselage.
Last edited by Portlandflyer; 01-27-2016 at 09:30 AM.
01-26-2016, 10:52 AM
#256
Thread Starter
A bit about buffing machines and random stuff
There are three types of buffing machines used to polish clear coat.
The first is a rotary buffer. It does exactly what it's called and rotates like a drill. Most rotary machines have a 6 inch head. There are a few three inch buffers, that are used mostly for car detailing. Rotary machines are what the pros use to bring back the finish after the surface has been sanded. The problem we have with rotary machines is they can be very unforgiving. If you leave it in one spot too long, there is a high likelihood of cutting through the clear called "burning". They can also be deadly on any edges and will take off the clear all the way to the base coat quickly. The other problem we have, is a rotary machine can be very hard to physically control. Now the car guys don't have this issue. They are working on an object (car) that isn't going anywhere. They can hold onto their buffer with both hands and lay into the surface. If we were to try that on a little bitty stab I can assure you the very second you touch it with the buffer, it's going to go flying across the room. Rotary machines are used to remove deap scratches and sanding marks.
The second type is called an "oscillating" machine. An oscillating machines head does not rotate, rather it vibrates in little small circles. Oscillating machines are very safe to use, but are of little use in removing scratches and sanding marks.There primary use is for applying polishes.
The third type is called in the industry a "DA", which stands for "dual action". Dual action machines rotate as well as oscillate so they are a high-bred of a rotary and an oscillating buffer. DA machines are safe to use, but have limited capability to remove sanding marks, but are likely the best for our use. Pros use them to remove minor scratches and to apply glazes and polishes. The Griot's buffer I use is a DA machine. The way they work is if you just turn the unit on without touching the surface, the head will spin, but as you press it against our surface the rotation slows and becomes more of an oscillating buffer. In fact if you add too much pressure to the surface the head will stop rotating completely. The positive to these types of buffers is they are safe to use and easy to handle. With the 3 inch machine I use, I can hold the wing or stab with one hand and the buffer with the other so I can stay in control.
http://www.autogeek.net/griots-3inch...FQ2VfgodO3wHuw
What I do to remove the 2,000 grit sand paper scratches is to hold the head lightly on the surface so the machine acts more like a rotary buffer. The downside is you can't apply heavy pressure or the head will stop rotating, making it difficult to remove all of the sand paper scratches. As I start to work the surface, I now apply more pressure so the head rotates less, but oscillates more for fine polishing. So you see it is a compromise. We really need a rotary buffer to remove sanding scratches, but are hard to control and the oscillating units work great for detail work.
There is also an issue about heat that a lot of guys don't understand in buffing. You see, most heavy duty cutting compounds need heat to work properly. This is where the car guys have an advantage. They will use a big 6 inch rotary buffer with a wool bonnet that can generate a lot of heat. These type of compounds break down as they heat and help remove deep scratches. We don't have the luxury of using a buffer that can generate heat so we are limited in the amount of sanding scratches we can remove. This is one reason I have had a difficult time with compounds that require a lot of heat to work correctly. You see, we can not generate enough heat with the small buffers we have to use. The bottom line is I always have a few minor sanding marks that I am just never able to remove. It seems as though the System 51 product I am now using doesn't require as much heat to cut. I am getting exceptional scratch removal with minimal effort. That being said, if you look really close you can still see a minor amount of sanding marks, but has been a drastic improvement.
There are three types of buffing machines used to polish clear coat.
The first is a rotary buffer. It does exactly what it's called and rotates like a drill. Most rotary machines have a 6 inch head. There are a few three inch buffers, that are used mostly for car detailing. Rotary machines are what the pros use to bring back the finish after the surface has been sanded. The problem we have with rotary machines is they can be very unforgiving. If you leave it in one spot too long, there is a high likelihood of cutting through the clear called "burning". They can also be deadly on any edges and will take off the clear all the way to the base coat quickly. The other problem we have, is a rotary machine can be very hard to physically control. Now the car guys don't have this issue. They are working on an object (car) that isn't going anywhere. They can hold onto their buffer with both hands and lay into the surface. If we were to try that on a little bitty stab I can assure you the very second you touch it with the buffer, it's going to go flying across the room. Rotary machines are used to remove deap scratches and sanding marks.
The second type is called an "oscillating" machine. An oscillating machines head does not rotate, rather it vibrates in little small circles. Oscillating machines are very safe to use, but are of little use in removing scratches and sanding marks.There primary use is for applying polishes.
The third type is called in the industry a "DA", which stands for "dual action". Dual action machines rotate as well as oscillate so they are a high-bred of a rotary and an oscillating buffer. DA machines are safe to use, but have limited capability to remove sanding marks, but are likely the best for our use. Pros use them to remove minor scratches and to apply glazes and polishes. The Griot's buffer I use is a DA machine. The way they work is if you just turn the unit on without touching the surface, the head will spin, but as you press it against our surface the rotation slows and becomes more of an oscillating buffer. In fact if you add too much pressure to the surface the head will stop rotating completely. The positive to these types of buffers is they are safe to use and easy to handle. With the 3 inch machine I use, I can hold the wing or stab with one hand and the buffer with the other so I can stay in control.
http://www.autogeek.net/griots-3inch...FQ2VfgodO3wHuw
What I do to remove the 2,000 grit sand paper scratches is to hold the head lightly on the surface so the machine acts more like a rotary buffer. The downside is you can't apply heavy pressure or the head will stop rotating, making it difficult to remove all of the sand paper scratches. As I start to work the surface, I now apply more pressure so the head rotates less, but oscillates more for fine polishing. So you see it is a compromise. We really need a rotary buffer to remove sanding scratches, but are hard to control and the oscillating units work great for detail work.
There is also an issue about heat that a lot of guys don't understand in buffing. You see, most heavy duty cutting compounds need heat to work properly. This is where the car guys have an advantage. They will use a big 6 inch rotary buffer with a wool bonnet that can generate a lot of heat. These type of compounds break down as they heat and help remove deep scratches. We don't have the luxury of using a buffer that can generate heat so we are limited in the amount of sanding scratches we can remove. This is one reason I have had a difficult time with compounds that require a lot of heat to work correctly. You see, we can not generate enough heat with the small buffers we have to use. The bottom line is I always have a few minor sanding marks that I am just never able to remove. It seems as though the System 51 product I am now using doesn't require as much heat to cut. I am getting exceptional scratch removal with minimal effort. That being said, if you look really close you can still see a minor amount of sanding marks, but has been a drastic improvement.
Last edited by Portlandflyer; 01-26-2016 at 05:16 PM.
01-27-2016, 12:13 PM
#258
Thread Starter
01-27-2016, 12:47 PM
#259
Thread Starter
A bit more about sanding clear coat.
When you are sanding clear coat it is extremely important to not introduce impurities that can do more harm than good. The thing to do is to become aware of what clean sandpaper sounds like when we work the surface. As you sand, if the tone of the sanding changes, there is a good chance we have picked up something. After you work with this stuff for a while, it becomes second nature. You will be sanding along and hear just the slightest tone change. When that happens, stop sanding...period! If you continue sanding, you may be adding scratches rather than removing them.
I always wet sand clear with just water with a few drops of dish washing liquid for lubrication. if I hear a change in tone while sanding, I immediately stop and wipe the surface with a clean cloth and rinse out my paper.
One other thing about buffing clear.
Keep in mind, it's a trade off of "when" we sand (cut) clear and "when" we buff it back to a gloss. Most clears become so hard after 24 to 48 hours after applying, they are very difficult to sand. But the problem is, when we sand the surface we are exposing uncured or softer clear underneath that is not cured as hard. Think of it as a hard surface, but softer underneath that we have now exposed. You can actually smell what I am talking about. As you start to level the clear we may pick up the odor of solvent that has not been able to escape. If we were to let that surface now cure for a few days then sand it again, we likely would pick up that same odor as we are now exposing clear that the solvents haven't released yet. It can take a long time for clear to fully release its solvent.
But the fact is, the harder the clear is, the better we can buff it back to a high gloss. So if we buff back a newly exposed (sanded) surface, we are buffing softer clear and we are not able to bring it back to its best level of gloss. What some of the car guys that do ultra high end paint jobs is to sand the surface level and wait up to two months before they buff it back to a gloss. The idea is, after two month, the clear has attained it final hardness, which will give the highest level of gloss.
Now to be perfectly honest, I normally buff the same day I sand, because.......well I'm impatient. I have found if I buff out the finish and come back a day or two later I can get another level of gloss, but is it worth all the effort? Remember guys...these are just toy airplanes, not show cars!
When you are sanding clear coat it is extremely important to not introduce impurities that can do more harm than good. The thing to do is to become aware of what clean sandpaper sounds like when we work the surface. As you sand, if the tone of the sanding changes, there is a good chance we have picked up something. After you work with this stuff for a while, it becomes second nature. You will be sanding along and hear just the slightest tone change. When that happens, stop sanding...period! If you continue sanding, you may be adding scratches rather than removing them.
I always wet sand clear with just water with a few drops of dish washing liquid for lubrication. if I hear a change in tone while sanding, I immediately stop and wipe the surface with a clean cloth and rinse out my paper.
One other thing about buffing clear.
Keep in mind, it's a trade off of "when" we sand (cut) clear and "when" we buff it back to a gloss. Most clears become so hard after 24 to 48 hours after applying, they are very difficult to sand. But the problem is, when we sand the surface we are exposing uncured or softer clear underneath that is not cured as hard. Think of it as a hard surface, but softer underneath that we have now exposed. You can actually smell what I am talking about. As you start to level the clear we may pick up the odor of solvent that has not been able to escape. If we were to let that surface now cure for a few days then sand it again, we likely would pick up that same odor as we are now exposing clear that the solvents haven't released yet. It can take a long time for clear to fully release its solvent.
But the fact is, the harder the clear is, the better we can buff it back to a high gloss. So if we buff back a newly exposed (sanded) surface, we are buffing softer clear and we are not able to bring it back to its best level of gloss. What some of the car guys that do ultra high end paint jobs is to sand the surface level and wait up to two months before they buff it back to a gloss. The idea is, after two month, the clear has attained it final hardness, which will give the highest level of gloss.
Now to be perfectly honest, I normally buff the same day I sand, because.......well I'm impatient. I have found if I buff out the finish and come back a day or two later I can get another level of gloss, but is it worth all the effort? Remember guys...these are just toy airplanes, not show cars!
01-27-2016, 03:37 PM
#260
Senior Member
From a Chemistry point of view, the polymer coating isn't fully cooked for quite some time as Pat notes. That matters little for electrics. But if you use high nitro glow fuel or to a lesser extent, gasoline, it's not a good idea to spill fuel on your finish since it has not cured enough to produce a fuel proof surface. That comes with aging .... A couple weeks at least is often adequate. If you use liquid fuels and spill them on the finish, wipe the spill as soon as possible.
I learned this the hard way. I had the clear coat bubble up when a un-noticed small leak on my fill line on the side of the fuse dripped fuel on the fuse side. Over a couple flights, enough sloshed out of the tube to bubble up and discolor the clear (PPG 2 part urethane, cured for maybe 5 days). It ruined a beautiful paint job on my Alliance.
I learned this the hard way. I had the clear coat bubble up when a un-noticed small leak on my fill line on the side of the fuse dripped fuel on the fuse side. Over a couple flights, enough sloshed out of the tube to bubble up and discolor the clear (PPG 2 part urethane, cured for maybe 5 days). It ruined a beautiful paint job on my Alliance.
Last edited by MTK; 01-28-2016 at 10:57 PM.
01-27-2016, 04:03 PM
#261
Thread Starter
From a Chemistry point of view, the polymer coating isn't fully cooked for quite some time as Pat notes. That matters little for electrics. But if you use high nitro glow fuel or to a lesser extent, gasoline, it's not a good idea to spill fuel on your finish since it has not cured enough to produce a fuel proof surface. That comes with aging .... A couple weeks at least is often adequate. If you use liquid fuels and spill them on the finish, wipe the spill as soon as possible.
Exactly...This is what House of Kolor has to say about their clear:
Based upon weather conditions, number of coats, solvent speed, and flash time between coats, etc., it is not unusual for the Klear to remain soft for extended periods of time. This does not meanthe finish is uncured; it indicates the finish is holding solvents and will need additional time to fully harden.
Being a canalized product can create a hard skin, if you will, but solvents are still trapped and need to be released. This is why clear coat can weigh significantly less after cooking in the sun over time.
01-31-2016, 04:30 PM
#263
That looks slicker than greased snot on a door knob
You do realize you made a huge mistake though. With that slippery paint job, you down lines will be far to fast. You may need to take some 80 grit and roughen the surface a bit for more drag
Ken
You do realize you made a huge mistake though. With that slippery paint job, you down lines will be far to fast. You may need to take some 80 grit and roughen the surface a bit for more drag
Ken
01-31-2016, 04:42 PM
#264
Thread Starter
01-31-2016, 06:38 PM
#266
Thread Starter
Mark,
It's really easy to do. All I do is lay the wing on top of the Ultra cote (Ultra cote face up) and just draw the outline of the wing. I leave it long on the trailing edge and just trim it back a bit with a straight edge. I used to coat the edges with clear, but found I don't need to. I was getting more lifting with the clear than just leaving the edge raw.
Last edited by Portlandflyer; 02-04-2016 at 12:51 PM.
01-31-2016, 07:55 PM
#268
Thread Starter
Might have it ready by next weekend and the weather looks OK so far. I am in Mexico in two weeks so we will see. I will let you know.The red is the same as what I used on the Evolris and Proteus. It always looks too dark until you put tin the sun and then it glows. It's a stock color from HOK...it is Raspberry Pearl.
02-06-2016, 04:14 PM
#272
VERY, VERY nice. Now comes fun part, you get to fly it!
As nice as you paint is I think I would have trouble seeing the plane in the air. My "old" eyes just don't work as they once did. I would need larger more distinct (higher contrast) graphics. I DO NOT mean to take anything away from your paint. Just for me, I don't think it would work.
THANK YOU for taking the time to do this paint thread. It is a wealth of information and tips. I've recommended it to several as "the standard" for pre-paint prep and painting light.
Ken
As nice as you paint is I think I would have trouble seeing the plane in the air. My "old" eyes just don't work as they once did. I would need larger more distinct (higher contrast) graphics. I DO NOT mean to take anything away from your paint. Just for me, I don't think it would work.
THANK YOU for taking the time to do this paint thread. It is a wealth of information and tips. I've recommended it to several as "the standard" for pre-paint prep and painting light.
Ken
Last edited by kenh3497; 02-06-2016 at 04:23 PM.
02-06-2016, 07:49 PM
#274
Thread Starter
02-06-2016, 08:15 PM
#275
Thread Starter
OK guys, I tried to fly today and found out I have a bad (brand new) Q80. Changed it out and am good to go.
Here are my thoughts on color and graphics.
First off, I have had a really, really hard time with my eyes and being able to see planes. It all started about ten years ago with a detached retina and it's been down hill from there.Two years ago I had cataract surgery on one eye and wound up with eyes that don't track, Without prisms in my glasses I see double. In the last two or three yeas I have developed massive amounts of floaters. BTW, my nickname is LUCKY! It's an old joke, but I am old...so there!
Trust me on this, I have tried just about every thing possible to be able to see planes from graphics, to schemes, to color. At least in my case, graphics are irrelevant...it's all about color for me. I have heard guys say for years it is all about contrast...well in my case..it ain't. I find in pattern, the most important issue is being able to see the profile of the plane (sides) and of course the wings. In my case, I find the best colors to see the side of the plane are yellows and oranges. To me, color and graphics on the wings are not as important. You name it and I have tried it for color and graphics. I have even completely repainted a Proteus because I couldn't see it.
I have found for the bottom of the wings, nothing beats Ultra Cote Safety Orange. Again, it's all about color. It looks ridiculously bright on the ground, but you can't miss it in the air. When I do spins, I just count the number of orange flashes!
I have come to the conclusion that I need to fly bipes to have a fighting chance. I find I am at the point now, mono plane wings, just disappear. With bipes no matter what attitude the plane is in, I can still pick up a wing.
Here are my thoughts on color and graphics.
First off, I have had a really, really hard time with my eyes and being able to see planes. It all started about ten years ago with a detached retina and it's been down hill from there.Two years ago I had cataract surgery on one eye and wound up with eyes that don't track, Without prisms in my glasses I see double. In the last two or three yeas I have developed massive amounts of floaters. BTW, my nickname is LUCKY!
It's an old joke, but I am old...so there! Trust me on this, I have tried just about every thing possible to be able to see planes from graphics, to schemes, to color. At least in my case, graphics are irrelevant...it's all about color for me. I have heard guys say for years it is all about contrast...well in my case..it ain't. I find in pattern, the most important issue is being able to see the profile of the plane (sides) and of course the wings. In my case, I find the best colors to see the side of the plane are yellows and oranges. To me, color and graphics on the wings are not as important. You name it and I have tried it for color and graphics. I have even completely repainted a Proteus because I couldn't see it.
I have found for the bottom of the wings, nothing beats Ultra Cote Safety Orange. Again, it's all about color. It looks ridiculously bright on the ground, but you can't miss it in the air. When I do spins, I just count the number of orange flashes!
I have come to the conclusion that I need to fly bipes to have a fighting chance. I find I am at the point now, mono plane wings, just disappear. With bipes no matter what attitude the plane is in, I can still pick up a wing.
