Lower classes incentive for less expensive planes .Pattern
10-08-2016, 07:00 AM
#1
Lower classes incentive for less expensive planes .Pattern
Develop a "K: factor in the sportsman - intermediate classes to give points for
A less expensive aircraft .
Purpose is to encourage more participation with what you have.
I'm aware their is the fly what you got "rule".
I flew $400.00 ARF {Evolution} Used E-Bay Webra 160 in Intermediate 1st year got beaten by a NON-Pattern aircraft simply because the other guy was a better pilot . I came in 2nd.
Lets make it Honorable and exciting to win with less. Maybe a 2ndary award for the least expensive plane .
A less expensive aircraft .
Purpose is to encourage more participation with what you have.
I'm aware their is the fly what you got "rule".
I flew $400.00 ARF {Evolution} Used E-Bay Webra 160 in Intermediate 1st year got beaten by a NON-Pattern aircraft simply because the other guy was a better pilot . I came in 2nd.
Lets make it Honorable and exciting to win with less. Maybe a 2ndary award for the least expensive plane .
10-08-2016, 07:59 AM
#2
In my district we have been talking about this, as well as other ways to bring new pilots to Sportsman. Perhaps a handicapping formula.
Perhaps a 5% bonus for 60 to 70 inch wing span, and a 10% bonus below 60 inch wing span.
Perhaps a 5% bonus for 60 to 70 inch wing span, and a 10% bonus below 60 inch wing span.
Last edited by big_G; 10-08-2016 at 08:02 AM.
10-09-2016, 09:26 AM
#3
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Not sure you even have to do that. This year I started out flying just a Eflite Splendor. What I was finding was that when I traveled to events some of the locals would always come up and talk to me about the plane. Here I was using a very inexpensive plane and I was extremely competitive with it. I was consistently finishing 3rd in Intermediate.
I would emphasize that to get the plane to fly like it did, I had to spend a lot of hours adjusting and moving things around for the proper CG. Not to mention hours of flying to get extremely comfortable with the plane.
I was encouraging for me to have been asked about the plane. Knowing it really isn't about the plane as much as it is the pilot. Yes there is not doubt the plane will help out as well. But you still can not replace the skill of the pilot no matter what you do or try.
I would emphasize that to get the plane to fly like it did, I had to spend a lot of hours adjusting and moving things around for the proper CG. Not to mention hours of flying to get extremely comfortable with the plane.
I was encouraging for me to have been asked about the plane. Knowing it really isn't about the plane as much as it is the pilot. Yes there is not doubt the plane will help out as well. But you still can not replace the skill of the pilot no matter what you do or try.
10-09-2016, 01:58 PM
#4
At the last contest I attended there was some discussion regarding ways in which participation could be increased. Generally speaking, you do not see many people from the clubs hosting the events participating in them. From what I heard, in the pre-trunaround days, participation at the sportsman level was quite high and in many instances it was sufficient to fund the event (i.e. meals, trophies, etc). The idea centered in creating a non-turn around sequence built around maneuvers which most sport pilots can fly (i.e. loops, rolls, cuban eights, etc). Such a sequence would allow participation without the need for much practice and it would give the local hotshots an opportunity to show off. The consensus is also that the current sequences have probably become more difficult than they need to be and maybe discouraging pilots from participating. I agree with this to some degree, the current Advanced sequence is more difficult than the one it replaced, but then again, I am already hooked so it is an easy sell.
I think that the hobby offers many more options than it did a few years ago, ok, maybe 20 years ago, and our event will always have a limited draw. The concern is that we are not attracting many new pilots.
I think that the hobby offers many more options than it did a few years ago, ok, maybe 20 years ago, and our event will always have a limited draw. The concern is that we are not attracting many new pilots.
10-09-2016, 05:12 PM
#5
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Hi all,
Here is my 2 cents worth...
Pattern flying at the top level is now at a point where it is so complicated that the average aeromodeller is too confused as to what is actually happening and very difficult to follow around unless you actually fly the sequence yourself.
Some people have commented that it is boring to watch compared to say a Scale event or 3D.
I say to them that Pattern flying is all about competing against yourself and trying to better the manoeuvre from your previous flight by applying what you learned.
Having said that a lot of people are very envious of Pattern but don't know how to get into it.
I get a lot of people at my club approach me and ask how did you do that?
My answer is always Practice and airframe setting / adjustment until you have an airframe that does what you want it to do and then practice more.
The problem here is people don't know what needs to be adjusted and why.... and this is where we need to educate the newbies
The average flyer wouldn't have a clue what CoG, P- Factor ,Slipstream Effect , Expo, Control throw, thrust to weight ratio etc etc.......
Personally I think the Sportsman sequence is far too complicated for the newbies and this discourages a lot of people from having a go.
kind regards
Here is my 2 cents worth...
Pattern flying at the top level is now at a point where it is so complicated that the average aeromodeller is too confused as to what is actually happening and very difficult to follow around unless you actually fly the sequence yourself.
Some people have commented that it is boring to watch compared to say a Scale event or 3D.
I say to them that Pattern flying is all about competing against yourself and trying to better the manoeuvre from your previous flight by applying what you learned.
Having said that a lot of people are very envious of Pattern but don't know how to get into it.
I get a lot of people at my club approach me and ask how did you do that?
My answer is always Practice and airframe setting / adjustment until you have an airframe that does what you want it to do and then practice more.
The problem here is people don't know what needs to be adjusted and why.... and this is where we need to educate the newbies
The average flyer wouldn't have a clue what CoG, P- Factor ,Slipstream Effect , Expo, Control throw, thrust to weight ratio etc etc.......
Personally I think the Sportsman sequence is far too complicated for the newbies and this discourages a lot of people from having a go.
kind regards
10-10-2016, 01:37 AM
#6
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So I just want to touch on one other thing. What do you do about the guys who show up with these new planes from the hobby shop? They show an interest to learn to fly more tricks as they call them.
Not sure about the rest of the clubs out there. Although seems most hobby shops are the same. I am not sure you can even buy a new planes that is RTF with out any type of flight controls systems anymore. Sorry not trying to Hijack your thread. And yes If you look back on my history I was involved in a discussion about this particular issue not long ago.
I am not for them at all. But we at our club have found it very tricky to convince those individuals to not use flight systems. Even harder when you have some well known pilots in the RC industry who push the flight systems.
Not sure about the rest of the clubs out there. Although seems most hobby shops are the same. I am not sure you can even buy a new planes that is RTF with out any type of flight controls systems anymore. Sorry not trying to Hijack your thread. And yes If you look back on my history I was involved in a discussion about this particular issue not long ago.
I am not for them at all. But we at our club have found it very tricky to convince those individuals to not use flight systems. Even harder when you have some well known pilots in the RC industry who push the flight systems.
10-10-2016, 08:03 AM
#7
We have had similar discussions in our club. The stabilization systems makes the hobby more accessible; just about anyone can now "learn" how to fly. I think that in general, it is a good thing. We do have a few members in the club whom without these systems they would not get to enjoy flying model airplanes. For those who can develop the skills, we encourage them to get weened off as their skills progress. We also have a fairly robust instructor core; so just about anyone who wants to learn how to fly gets a chance and there is always someone with more experience who is willing to help out. Those who are truly interested in the hobby normally make the progression, those who are less committed don't and we don't push them. To each their own...
To me, the hardest thing, is trying to convince new pilots to move into larger, non-foam airplanes. I do believe that balsa flies better than foam and that bigger is also better. With so many RTF offerings out there; mostly made of foam, many seem reluctant to try something else. I think that it is part because some effort is required to assemble an ARF properly. Then again, we also provide assistance in that respect. In our club, we have 4 active IMAC pilots and 1 pattern flyer. Looking at the airplanes flown, we could probably have another 6 IMAC pilots and possibly another 2 pattern pilots, but getting them to try it out is very difficult. For example, one the members is curious about IMAC but will not commit to dedicating one day to flying the basic IMAC sequence just to try it out. Although I fly pattern, I offered to call for him and try to coach him and he is still reluctant. I just don't know what the right answer is. Maybe one of these days someone will bite...
To me, the hardest thing, is trying to convince new pilots to move into larger, non-foam airplanes. I do believe that balsa flies better than foam and that bigger is also better. With so many RTF offerings out there; mostly made of foam, many seem reluctant to try something else. I think that it is part because some effort is required to assemble an ARF properly. Then again, we also provide assistance in that respect. In our club, we have 4 active IMAC pilots and 1 pattern flyer. Looking at the airplanes flown, we could probably have another 6 IMAC pilots and possibly another 2 pattern pilots, but getting them to try it out is very difficult. For example, one the members is curious about IMAC but will not commit to dedicating one day to flying the basic IMAC sequence just to try it out. Although I fly pattern, I offered to call for him and try to coach him and he is still reluctant. I just don't know what the right answer is. Maybe one of these days someone will bite...
10-10-2016, 04:43 PM
#8
Maybe this new Club Class ( https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences ) will help get some new people into pattern. The maneuvers are the same as what they have been doing in their sport flying. AND there is only 10 of them. Short sweet and simple. This sequence should be fairly simple to "master" and if it hooks them I think sportsman will suck them right in??? IMO Club class and Sportsman should be limited in size to 60 to 65 inch wing span and an appropriate weight though it is hard to dictate a weight for various size air frames. Maybe weight is not a big deal in Club and Sportsman??
Now with the above said I must say I'm an aspiring pattern pilot but plan on competing in sportsman but would be happy to join in on the Club Class just to improve my skills.
Ken
Now with the above said I must say I'm an aspiring pattern pilot but plan on competing in sportsman but would be happy to join in on the Club Class just to improve my skills.
Ken
10-10-2016, 05:28 PM
#9
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So even more important question? Is anyone doing anything in your local club to promote or do get some young blood to fly pattern? This is probably the toughest. Its just not as flashy as it once used to be. All the kids have their eyes on 3D. I believe that most of the top notch pilots have spent time precision flying. Just not sure how to get this across to the younger generation.
10-11-2016, 06:11 AM
#10
We as accomplished/experienced pattern pilots have the responsibility to seek out and develop new blood to our hobby. Remember how intimidated some of us were at our first contest?..Well, new pilots are feeling the same pressure. I challenge everyone reading this post to watch other pilots at your regular field and seek out those that watch you fly and explain what precision flying is all about. Maybe even let them have a pull on your plane. Most will be amazed at how easy they are to fly, and they will be hooked. So far, I have brought 2 pilots into the fold, one in Intermediate and one to Sportsman. The Intermediate pilot will probably finish 2nd in district points, and the Sportsman pilot is currently tied for 1st. They love it! I have possibly 2 more pilots gearing up for next season in Sportsman. Let's hustle!
10-11-2016, 08:24 AM
#11
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We as accomplished/experienced pattern pilots have the responsibility to seek out and develop new blood to our hobby. Remember how intimidated some of us were at our first contest?..Well, new pilots are feeling the same pressure. I challenge everyone reading this post to watch other pilots at your regular field and seek out those that watch you fly and explain what precision flying is all about. Maybe even let them have a pull on your plane. Most will be amazed at how easy they are to fly, and they will be hooked. So far, I have brought 2 pilots into the fold, one in Intermediate and one to Sportsman. The Intermediate pilot will probably finish 2nd in district points, and the Sportsman pilot is currently tied for 1st. They love it! I have possibly 2 more pilots gearing up for next season in Sportsman. Let's hustle!
10-11-2016, 08:53 AM
#12
So what are they flying?? What airframes? This for us is the biggest factor. Not many are willing to pull the trigger on a true pattern plane? At least not 2m size. I know I have personally always tried to preach that it is really not what kind of plane your flying. But who is flying it. Hence one of the reasons I tried to fly the Eflite Splendor at some competitions. At least for 75 percent of new pilots that plane is well with in their reach financially.
10-11-2016, 02:45 PM
#13
I wouldn't agree that limiting the size of the model will do much for increasing participation. I started with a 3DHS Osiris that AJ designed and in reasonably short order, bought a SebArt Wind S Pro 2M ship.
I went to my first competition it was with the Wind flying in Sportsman. I did this jump as I knew I wanted to keep flying Pattern and it seemed unreasonable to go through a bunch of less expensive models when I could afford to go with the Wind. We've got guys around here flying mostly 2M ships like the EF Vanquish. Most were purchased from other guys who were moving up. If you restrict the model size for the lower classes, it'll mess up that natural progression of guys wanting to get a 2M and those who want to go to a more expensive airframe.
Personally, I think it might be better to encourage those interested, to fly what ever they already have initially. Then the smaller Pattern models like the Osiris which is no longer available, but AJ just came out with a Pattern model a lot like the Osiris but with a canalizer and it's $400.00. These little models fly very well and will usually be enough to get someone hooked if they already have any kind of interest. I still let new guys who are interested, fly my Osiris. They've all loved the little beastie.
I think that being approachable at the field will help a lot. Since we've had a certain guy show up in our area, the interest in Pattern has exploded. It's also a good primer for turbines, some of us have gone there as well....
I went to my first competition it was with the Wind flying in Sportsman. I did this jump as I knew I wanted to keep flying Pattern and it seemed unreasonable to go through a bunch of less expensive models when I could afford to go with the Wind. We've got guys around here flying mostly 2M ships like the EF Vanquish. Most were purchased from other guys who were moving up. If you restrict the model size for the lower classes, it'll mess up that natural progression of guys wanting to get a 2M and those who want to go to a more expensive airframe.
Personally, I think it might be better to encourage those interested, to fly what ever they already have initially. Then the smaller Pattern models like the Osiris which is no longer available, but AJ just came out with a Pattern model a lot like the Osiris but with a canalizer and it's $400.00. These little models fly very well and will usually be enough to get someone hooked if they already have any kind of interest. I still let new guys who are interested, fly my Osiris. They've all loved the little beastie.
I think that being approachable at the field will help a lot. Since we've had a certain guy show up in our area, the interest in Pattern has exploded. It's also a good primer for turbines, some of us have gone there as well....
11-10-2016, 07:51 AM
#14
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To me, its not just about the type and size of the plane that could attract the newcomer to the sport, to me its what incentive does the host club provide provide for one to want to travel to a contest and participate. While it is nice to meet fellows who share the same passion, and are great resource of advice to compete, I've also liked the little things, like prizes for the winner beyond a nice plaque and a photo. Some clubs would also,provide fuel, gift certificates, maybe a radio or next new aircraft, maybe even a cash prize. Don't see it much anymore. I think those things would help attract more to the beginner, esp if traveling some distance.
11-10-2016, 08:00 AM
#15
To me, its not just about the type and size of the plane that could attract the newcomer to the sport, to me its what incentive does the host club provide provide for one to want to travel to a contest and participate. While it is nice to meet fellows who share the same passion, and are great resource of advice to compete, I've also liked the little things, like prizes for the winner beyond a nice plaque and a photo. Some clubs would also,provide fuel, gift certificates, maybe a radio or next new aircraft, maybe even a cash prize. Don't see it much anymore. I think those things would help attract more to the beginner, esp if traveling some distance.
11-10-2016, 12:04 PM
#16
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I think what drives all of us in pattern is the excitement of the competition!! Newbies to a certain extent must naturally become excited about competing and the nudging of a mentor always helps. Not sure why a pattern contest does not make money for a club. I assisted with the first ever pattern contest in Mesa Az back in 2012 and we put almost $600 in the clubs piggy bank with 20 pilots attending. The club did absolutely nothing except grant us use of the field for the weekend.
11-10-2016, 09:20 PM
#18
To me, its not just about the type and size of the plane that could attract the newcomer to the sport, to me its what incentive does the host club provide provide for one to want to travel to a contest and participate. While it is nice to meet fellows who share the same passion, and are great resource of advice to compete, I've also liked the little things, like prizes for the winner beyond a nice plaque and a photo. Some clubs would also,provide fuel, gift certificates, maybe a radio or next new aircraft, maybe even a cash prize. Don't see it much anymore. I think those things would help attract more to the beginner, esp if traveling some distance.
You want more "prizes" for the new guys? Money maybe? New tx's? Get a grip. If that's the criteria for getting someone into ANY type of RC model competition, perhaps they'd be better off switching hobbies to something like Bass fishing.....
11-11-2016, 06:24 AM
#19
I think what drives all of us in pattern is the excitement of the competition!! Newbies to a certain extent must naturally become excited about competing and the nudging of a mentor always helps. Not sure why a pattern contest does not make money for a club. I assisted with the first ever pattern contest in Mesa Az back in 2012 and we put almost $600 in the clubs piggy bank with 20 pilots attending. The club did absolutely nothing except grant us use of the field for the weekend.
11-19-2016, 07:30 PM
#20
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Ok, my turn. I represent the some what talented pilot who has an interest in Pattern Flying BUT not particularly interested in competition. I just wanted to improve my flying skills in a more measurable way. One of your own, has been mentoring me on the nuances, set up, trimming, theory etc. That alone keeps me interested. Now i'm learning to call for him and can see first hand what its about. I got back into RC flying after a thirty year break. I started with a small FMS Explorer foamy that is a blast to fly and will actually do the maneuvers just fine. From there I jumped up to the FMS Olympus 1400mm and it flys fantastic. At $280 dollars hardly a financial burden. A Sebart or other similar high quality aircraft is my long term goal.
Because of my friends involvement I'm open to the idea of competing soon. My advice as far as contests go is... KISS, I'm not interested in giveaways, or even trophies, just good comradely, stretching my limits and learning as I go. I would add however if you want to make it truly something to look forward to have EXCELLENT food available, not Ok to Good, and an opportunity to enjoy each other further after the contest at some appropriate local place.
Because of my friends involvement I'm open to the idea of competing soon. My advice as far as contests go is... KISS, I'm not interested in giveaways, or even trophies, just good comradely, stretching my limits and learning as I go. I would add however if you want to make it truly something to look forward to have EXCELLENT food available, not Ok to Good, and an opportunity to enjoy each other further after the contest at some appropriate local place.
11-20-2016, 12:40 AM
#21
I think contests are great fun. They have a special feel about them.
The problem comes in a couple of ways.
There are not enough contests close to 99% of the fliers who would like to try it. It may be great fun to head out of town for a big weekend, but most do not want to spend $400-600 a weekend and to drive 4 hours for 4 flights. At least not starting out. You live in a contest zone, you have it easy.
It eats up club time. Because many clubs dont have any kind of competition, the membership does not want to give up a weekend. Sometimes when a club has a competition it arranges for its members to fly at another club for the weekend, but you have to be able to pull it off.
Some kind of incentive from the AMA for clubs to have some kind of ruled competition. Some clubs might be pattern some might be scale, pylon, helicopters; if more opportunities were around, you might find a place to fit in close by.
Have some kind of low key events during a normal club day. What if contests could be split up at the local club. Say there are some Sportsman and Intermediate fliers at the local club; maybe 5 guys or so. How can they have a mini contest with points that count?
On cost of contest again, what if Sportsman was free for someone up to 2 contests. Getting over the stage fright is one of the first things; having to pay to have stage fright is no fun for someone new.
Sportsman equipment is a big deal, but penalizing anyone for it is tough. I think if enough non or low end pattern planes show, run a separate class of sportsman; A and B. Let the pilots chose if they want to be in a pool or keep 2 M separate.
The problem comes in a couple of ways.
There are not enough contests close to 99% of the fliers who would like to try it. It may be great fun to head out of town for a big weekend, but most do not want to spend $400-600 a weekend and to drive 4 hours for 4 flights. At least not starting out. You live in a contest zone, you have it easy.
It eats up club time. Because many clubs dont have any kind of competition, the membership does not want to give up a weekend. Sometimes when a club has a competition it arranges for its members to fly at another club for the weekend, but you have to be able to pull it off.
Some kind of incentive from the AMA for clubs to have some kind of ruled competition. Some clubs might be pattern some might be scale, pylon, helicopters; if more opportunities were around, you might find a place to fit in close by.
Have some kind of low key events during a normal club day. What if contests could be split up at the local club. Say there are some Sportsman and Intermediate fliers at the local club; maybe 5 guys or so. How can they have a mini contest with points that count?
On cost of contest again, what if Sportsman was free for someone up to 2 contests. Getting over the stage fright is one of the first things; having to pay to have stage fright is no fun for someone new.
Sportsman equipment is a big deal, but penalizing anyone for it is tough. I think if enough non or low end pattern planes show, run a separate class of sportsman; A and B. Let the pilots chose if they want to be in a pool or keep 2 M separate.
11-20-2016, 08:13 AM
#22
I think contests are great fun. They have a special feel about them.
The problem comes in a couple of ways.
There are not enough contests close to 99% of the fliers who would like to try it. It may be great fun to head out of town for a big weekend, but most do not want to spend $400-600 a weekend and to drive 4 hours for 4 flights. At least not starting out. You live in a contest zone, you have it easy.
The problem comes in a couple of ways.
There are not enough contests close to 99% of the fliers who would like to try it. It may be great fun to head out of town for a big weekend, but most do not want to spend $400-600 a weekend and to drive 4 hours for 4 flights. At least not starting out. You live in a contest zone, you have it easy.
My thoughts also.
Where I live the closest contest to me is 4 hours away. Next closest is 5 hours. Most if not all contests are two day events which necessitate AT LEAST one nights stay in a motel and two nights would be better. That means maybe even having to lose a partial days work for travel. If somehow there could be one day contests closer it would be helpful. Maybe have one dayers that only run one or two classes so flying is maximized for the participants??? Of course this means having clubs on board willing to give up a day or two during the flying season. That IMO will be the largest obstacle. Maybe if the NSRCA were to contact some clubs that were "hours" away from a contest requesting they host an event even if the club had no or only one or two that have pattern interest. That in itself might spur some interest from locals to participate????? There is no easy answer to any of this.
Ken
Last edited by kenh3497; 11-20-2016 at 08:15 AM.
11-20-2016, 04:37 PM
#25
Gary