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YS user seeking sympathetic ears :(

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Old 03-25-2017, 07:45 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
The last few trips to the flying field have not been particularly rewarding. I just can't find a needle and regulator setting that gives me a consistent run. I've had glimmers of hope where the engine has had that nice smooth drive off the bottom end with every throttle position meaning something, only to have it start running like a hairy goat 3-4 minutes into the schedule later.

The odd thing is that not matter how lean I've run this engine (I've tried rich and lean) while having problems, the oil under the plane has never been dark. Way back when it was a reliable engine you could see changes in the oil coverage and colour depending on the mixture setting.

So I'm committed to one more trip to the field before I go on holidays for 2 weeks to make a decision about the engines' future, either it stays or it goes...

DZ185cdi or DZ185cdi ZERO ????

The ZERO would be pretty much be a drop in replacement for the 170cdi power wise and a bit cheaper to run fuel wise, although the Aries 07 would probably benefit from the extra power of the 185cdi given the airframe wasn't' one of Oxai's lightest.

I was looking at it between flights yesterday while topping up the batteries, then looked at the club fire extinguisher and almost wished the Li-Po pack would catch on fire and put an end to the problems..
Have you tried running on glow?

And flying with the cowl off? Sounds alot like overheating.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drac1 View Post

And flying with the cowl off? Sounds alot like overheating.
Brett....I had thought of that at first....
My 140L had slowly lost power especially on the uplines. I removed the cowl on the next flight 15 minutes later and the slow power loss never happened.
The exhaust hole(s) in the engine cover were not large enough so I made them 4 times larger and that solved that problem.
This was using CP 30% Heli fuel.
Try it without the cowl....surely you must have done that already....

Try tearing the pump down and look at the piston on the bottom....I'll bet it is worn out.
If it is....the internal pump fuel pressure will never stabilize and cause goofy mixture changes.

Dave

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:57 PM
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Brett....talking about another engine....I'm never going to have a DZ anything again.
I have never had much trouble with the FZ pressure tank versions though.
I might try the 175FZ....I'll bet it would be more reliable.

Dave
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Dave Harmon View Post
Brett....talking about another engine....I'm never going to have a DZ anything again.
I have never had much trouble with the FZ pressure tank versions though.
I might try the 175FZ....I'll bet it would be more reliable.

Dave

It sound like you've had alot of fuel pump problems Dave. That's interesting.
From the DZ140 to the DZ185, I've only had one pump problem. The pump siezed on one of my 185's. Apart from that, I've never had fuel related problems. Ive been using the Tettra bladder tank for 15 years and has proved 100% reliable.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:20 AM
  #55
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Thanks for the support guys.

With the F1 looking like a snooze-fest, I headed out to the field, the weather station at the field said ~28 deg C.

As I was sharing the field for a change (Sunday afternoon) I was being polite and limiting the flights to about 15 minutes. The first two flights were OK, no misfiring but the engine felt very flat especially off the bottom end and I was having to throttle up to 3/4 throttle just to hold speed on 45 deg uplines.

I leaned the high speed two clicks for the third flight and pushing over the top of the old Half-clover it didn't feel right and the power starting dropping off pretty quick over the next couple of passes so I landed, took the belly pan off and richened it up three clicks. Took of again and flew for a few more minutes with the belly pan off but the power was just flat but at least it wasn't misfiring.

When I landed I flipped the plane over to check the valve clearance, and noticed when turning it over TDC that the "bounce" wasn't there. The tappets had clearance but there was very little compression. The piston, ring and liner were replaced a while back to try and fix the problem with no success and I replaced that ring only 4 litres of fuel ago in case I'd cooked it at some point so it should be bedding in fine by now? When cold there's a real kick turning it over so the lack of compression at running temperature was a surprise. The new head assembly should be sealing, so it's like the new ring has lost it's tension or maybe the cylinder is going out-of-round when hot?

Sorry about the long-winded post, but I ran it without the bellypan but I still haven't gone the glow plug route yet. I'd be disappointed if the pump had worn out as it's done very little work. I'm very reluctant to buy another YS but I don't want to convert this to electric as (a) It's already heavy and (b) I'm not set up for 10S flying so there's a significant investment I need to make for the resultant 8 minute flights.

Anyway, I can't lose anymore sleep over this as the MotoGP is on at 4am and I need my beauty sleep, good thing I've got Monday off work....

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Old 03-26-2017, 03:34 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
Thanks for the support guys.

With the F1 looking like a snooze-fest, I headed out to the field, the weather station at the field said ~28 deg C.

As I was sharing the field for a change (Sunday afternoon) I was being polite and limiting the flights to about 15 minutes. The first two flights were OK, no misfiring but the engine felt very flat especially off the bottom end and I was having to throttle up to 3/4 throttle just to hold speed on 45 deg uplines.

I leaned the high speed two clicks for the third flight and pushing over the top of the old Half-clover it didn't feel right and the power starting dropping off pretty quick over the next couple of passes so I landed, took the belly pan off and richened it up three clicks. Took of again and flew for a few more minutes with the belly pan off but the power was just flat but at least it wasn't misfiring.

When I landed I flipped the plane over to check the valve clearance, and noticed when turning it over TDC that the "bounce" wasn't there. The tappets had clearance but there was very little compression. The piston, ring and liner were replaced a while back to try and fix the problem with no success and I replaced that ring only 4 litres of fuel ago in case I'd cooked it at some point so it should be bedding in fine by now? When cold there's a real kick turning it over so the lack of compression at running temperature was a surprise. The new head assembly should be sealing, so it's like the new ring has lost it's tension or maybe the cylinder is going out-of-round when hot?

Sorry about the long-winded post, but I ran it without the bellypan but I still haven't gone the glow plug route yet. I'd be disappointed if the pump had worn out as it's done very little work. I'm very reluctant to buy another YS but I don't want to convert this to electric as (a) It's already heavy and (b) I'm not set up for 10S flying so there's a significant investment I need to make for the resultant 8 minute flights.

Anyway, I can't lose anymore sleep over this as the MotoGP is on at 4am and I need my beauty sleep, good thing I've got Monday off work....
Yes Brett, the opening round of F1 wasn't looking to be to exciting, Moto GP should be a bit more exhilarating.

With the Xareltoo engine, (185cdi), currently residing at the Galloways in New Zealand ready for the Trans Tasman next week, I removed the Valiant engine and put in the Xareltoo so I could get some practise this week. So with the F1 set to be a bit boring I headed off to the field for a quick flight as well.

Anyway, this is leading back to your comment about the lack of compression. The Valiant engine has less compression when turned over by hand than the Xareltoo engine has. I have noticed this in the past, but when it comes to flying, I can't tell any difference in performance between the two. Probably not much help to your situation, but interesting.

As for going electric, i have a large investment with IC set ups and it would cost me thousands to convert to electric, so as I have a good record with YS, I'll stick with them.

PS. There's nothing like being one of two YS planes in a field of 43 entries .

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Old 03-26-2017, 03:58 AM
  #57
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Yep, there is a certain satisfaction when the weather is perfect to be the only guy at a comp doing some skywriting, especially if you're having a good round. It just looks good. If you're having a bad round it doesn't look so good though!!

I remember my geared starter nearly coughing up a lung trying to turn the 170cdi over when it was new. When cold you still have to back it off compression to give the starter a chance even on 5S, but now once it's hot in the starting gates messing around with the mixtures you can just prod it and away it goes. I've sort of never noticed how much "easier" it has become to start when hot.

While I didn't have any misfiring today, it just didn't have any bottom end grunt.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:05 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
Yep, there is a certain satisfaction when the weather is perfect to be the only guy at a comp doing some skywriting, especially if you're having a good round. It just looks good. If you're having a bad round it doesn't look so good though!!

I remember my geared starter nearly coughing up a lung trying to turn the 170cdi over when it was new. When cold you still have to back it off compression to give the starter a chance even on 5S, but now once it's hot in the starting gates messing around with the mixtures you can just prod it and away it goes. I've sort of never noticed how much "easier" it has become to start when hot.

While I didn't have any misfiring today, it just didn't have any bottom end grunt.
I don't notice any low end difference between the two either.

I give up on the geared starters. On a frosty morning, they wouldn't turn it over.
I now use a Sullivan Dynatron on 6s.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:59 PM
  #59
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Having the day off work, I decided to wander into the LHS to see if they had any coolpower 30% heli low smoke or something similar. Being a semi-rural city we are a mix-your-own area so I wasn't hopeful but I just wanted to eliminate another variable.

It turns out they don't stock commercially mixed fuel so I lucked out.

In the past I would pick up 5 litres of Nitromethane from his bulk supply but a problem with his bulk supply about a year ago meant I had been picking up 1 litre bottles with various labels on them, the last two of which I don't think smelled quite right. Anyway, while I was in there I picked up a litre from his bulk supply and decide to mix up 1.5 litres of 30% nitro 15% oil just for kicks. (I usually run 20% nitro/10% oil)

Well, I could wind the regulator right in again without it misfiring and loading up and the idle was happy at steady 1600rpm where before it needed about 2000rpm to keep idling. I wasn't too upset with the extra 400 rpm on the top end either. It took off like a scalded cat and while it was still a bit sluggish rolling on the throttle from cruise it was very flyable and the top end kick up the backside it now had was fun. Leaning the regulator a bit over the next few short hops improved the transition but it still seems a bit sluggish in that area. I'm not sure if the extra (or better) nitro is masking an underlying issue or that ring needs more bedding in.

The best way I can describe the sluggish felling is that it's almost a bit two-stroke'ish in that not much happens when you roll on the throttle from cruise as you pull into an upline, then the power quickly ramps up for the last bit of throttle and it begins to accelerate up.

What I can say is if this is what the 170cdi does on 30% nitro compared to 20% then a 185 in good condition on 30% nitro must be a beast.

I won't have much to add for the next few weeks as I'll be off on holidays, but today has been a positive morning out. The engine just earned it's millionth 2nd chance...

I know how Clarke Griswold feels. The whole clips is worth watching (and is a personal favorite along with the movie itself), but the time poor can watch from the time stamp in the link..

https://youtu.be/0ar-__ub0rc?t=141

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Old 03-26-2017, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
Having the day off work, I decided to wander into the LHS to see if they had any coolpower 30% heli low smoke or something similar. Being a semi-rural city we are a mix-your-own area so I wasn't hopeful but I just wanted to eliminate another variable.

It turns out they don't stock commercially mixed fuel so I lucked out.

In the past I would pick up 5 litres of Nitromethane from his bulk supply but a problem with his bulk supply about a year ago meant I had been picking up 1 litre bottles with various labels on them, the last two of which I don't think smelled quite right. Anyway, while I was in there I picked up a litre from his bulk supply and decide to mix up 1.5 litres of 30% nitro 15% oil just for kicks. (I usually run 20% nitro/10% oil)

Well, I could wind the regulator right in again without it misfiring and loading up and the idle was happy at steady 1600rpm where before it needed about 2000rpm to keep idling. I wasn't too upset with the extra 400 rpm on the top end either. It took off like a scalded cat and while it was still a bit sluggish rolling on the throttle from cruise it was very flyable and the top end kick up the backside it now had was fun. Leaning the regulator a bit over the next few short hops improved the transition but it still seems a bit sluggish in that area. I'm not sure if the extra (or better) nitro is masking an underlying issue or that ring needs more bedding in.

The best way I can describe the sluggish felling is that it's almost a bit two-stroke'ish in that not much happens when you roll on the throttle from cruise as you pull into an upline, then the power quickly ramps up for the last bit of throttle and it begins to accelerate up.

What I can say is if this is what the 170cdi does on 30% nitro compared to 20% then a 185 in good condition on 30% nitro must be a beast.

I won't have much to add for the next few weeks as I'll be off on holidays, but today has been a positive morning out. The engine just earned it's millionth 2nd chance...

I know how Clarke Griswold feels. The whole clips is worth watching (and is a personal favorite along with the movie itself), but the time poor can watch from the time stamp in the link..

https://youtu.be/0ar-__ub0rc?t=141

Good to hear you have had some success.

Bad fuel? I didn't think of that.

The sluggish midrange transition could be the throttle curve?
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:39 AM
  #61
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Yes Scott, the fuel quality has been in the back of my mind but it was OK before it started playing up way back a long time ago, so I think I've been chasing multiple gremlins.

Either way I opened a fresh 20L drum of methanol last week and noticed a difference in a litre I mixed up, so I threw out the last couple of litres of the old methanol. The last two litres of nitro came from new sealed commercial bottles but I'm dubious of their quality now.

I'd bought many 5 litre quantities from the LHS in the past from their bulk supply without issues, but imagine my surprise when the last 5 litre lot of nitro from his bulk supply a year ago turned out to be 5 litres of Methanol. Lucky, I caught that very quickly. As you know I mix things up using weight scales so when I added xxxx grams of nitro to mix up a "jug" I though I was pouring in a lot of nitro to hit the weight target. When I ran out of room in the jug I knew something wasn't right.. The litre I bought this morning came from his current bulk supply and it smells about right.

I might have to tweak the top half of the throttle curve a bit from what I usually run as see if that improves things. I like to cruise with the throttle at 1/2 stick which is about 1/3rd rotation on the barrel, the remaining rotation is is the top half of the stick travel.

Just a quick note: My final fuel mix percentages are volume based as they should be, I just use weight scales (with the fluid specific gravites) to get those volumes because it's easier for me. ie. instead of measuring out 200ml of Nitromethane , I just add 228 grams of nitro. I also do this with fluids when cooking as 1ml of water is 1g and there's 250g of water in a "cup".
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:21 PM
  #62
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Hi bjr,
What kind of oil did you mix?
Thanks
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:56 PM
  #63
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Hi Naftali, I was just about to ask that question of others this morning.

I've been running Coolpower blue at 10% which I believe is their standard viscosity.

I did run it at 20% for a couple of months when I first bought the engine, but I couldn't seem to get it running right all the time although the rest of the world had no problems running 20% oil. It was my first YS engine and I was on a steep learning curve (seems I still am) but it was easier (more idiot proof?) to tune on 10% oil.

While I was in the LHS, he pointed to a bottle of the Coolpower purple multi-viscosity oil and I was going to ask about that this morning.

I need a new bottle of oil and was wondering if the switch would be worth it and what percentage I should run?
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
Hi Naftali, I was just about to ask that question of others this morning.

I've been running Coolpower blue at 10% which I believe is their standard viscosity.

I did run it at 20% for a couple of months when I first bought the engine, but I couldn't seem to get it running right all the time although the rest of the world had no problems running 20% oil. It was my first YS engine and I was on a steep learning curve (seems I still am) but it was easier (more idiot proof?) to tune on 10% oil.

While I was in the LHS, he pointed to a bottle of the Coolpower purple multi-viscosity oil and I was going to ask about that this morning.

I need a new bottle of oil and was wondering if the switch would be worth it and what percentage I should run?
I use Coolpower MV (purple).

When the DZ140 first came out, I was using the standard Coolpower blue oil. But for the DZ's, this was too thick and the red was too thin (not enough film strength), so I started to mix 50/50 blue and red. The MV purple is basically the same. As soon as the MV came out, I switched. The engines seem quite happy on this.

I've used various percentages over the years from 10% to 16% to 13% and now I'm using Raoicon pre mixed, which is 10% oil. I didn't notice any real difference in performance, just different tuning and less smoke trail with less oil.

Of course there will be more wear with less oil. The rear bearing is the main thing to keep an eye on. On 10%, I generally replace bearings after around 150 flights. Or if it's getting close to a big comp, I'll rebuild if it's at 120 or more. These are still the same bearings as in the original 140, so with props now up to 21" compared to 15 1/2" for the 140, the rear bearing cops a hiding.

It will be interesting to see if the 200 still uses the same bearings. The prop I have for the 200 is 21 1/2" diameter.

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Old 03-27-2017, 02:27 PM
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All my YS engines run the best on CP 30% Heli......thin viscosity 30%nitro 22% oil.
I have tried mixing my own stuff and it never runs as good as the CP stuff.
I have used regular Klotz and the thin vis Klotz but the engines are pretty finicky about their diet.....1/2 oz of acetone per gallon helps the idle considerably.
I used to use polypropylene oxide (1/2 oz/gallon) but it's too hard to get around here.
Morgan has discovered something that makes them run better.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:00 PM
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I've never found any of the YS's to be "finicky" to run or tune. They run just as happily on my own mix or pre mix, whether it be Coolpower or Rapicon and I've never had to add anything to get a steady consistent idle.
The only difference I've noticed is with Rapicon, using the same oil %, I had to lean the reg a bit, but actual performance is still the same.

Both reg and needle have a broad range of adjustment without the engine acting up.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:23 PM
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Thanks for the information, I though I remembered Scott posting something about using the MV coolpower.

During this journey, I discovered on the 170 there's a path from the nipple on the crankcase that supplies the vacuum signal to the regulator, through the cam area, through the rear bearing, and out through the crank pin when the conrod is in the correct position. I'm quietly wondering if that's a good place to inject a cc or two of oil and give it a quick prod with the starter if I'm not going to run it for a few months?

I haven't had any bearing corrosion issues in the past when I've been using it regularity but these days it has tended to sit around a lot.

I might give the MV coolpower a shot at 15% for a while..
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
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I've never found any of the YS's to be "finicky" to run or tune.
Perception is everything....hahahah....just kidding!!

Brett....for several years now i have been using Castrol 0-20W fully synthetic motor oil as after run.
I use a squeeze bottle...open the carb and put in what feels good to you....I probably use 1/4 oz or a little more after every flying session.
Then with the throttle fully open spin the motor with the starter.
If it is going to sit for awhile I remove the plug and put some in the head as well.
This totally stops corrosion.
I have engines in long term storage pickled with this stuff in plastic bags. I check on them about every 6 months.
There is a 140 Sport that has been in there for about 8 years and I looked at it last week....no problems.
Highly recommended.
I've never had a problem starting the engines with a lot of this oil in it probably because it is so similar to the synth oil in the fuel.
It does not affect the glow or spark plug.

By the way....I have been using the Kavan starter on all my engines for many years...worn out a few too.
It will turn over the 170 with no problem at all but I rotate the prop clockwise, crack the throttle...run the starter and after about 5 seconds turn on the ignition switch while still cranking.
Starts right up every time.
The trick with the starter is not to use those goofy clips it comes with. put good lugs on the wires and crimp...then solder as well.
This will eliminate the high voltage losses when using clips.

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Old 03-27-2017, 05:35 PM
  #69
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Yes, I cut the alligator clips off my geared starter pretty quick as well and replaced them with a deans connector so as to run it off an old 5S li-po pack. I hit it with the ignition turned on.

I used to put some straight cool power down the throttle at first and give it a quick spin but I experienced starting issues. Coming from two-stroke glow world I was probably a bit heavy handed with the oil, so I stopped doing that. Also, as the rear bearing is sealed behind the crank ring, I didn't really see how any of that oil was going to get near the rear bearing anyway?

When the engine was reliable and I was running it most weekends I just used to shut it down with the throttle, empty the tank and put it away and the bearings used to stay in good condition (see picture).

However while it's been laying around for months on end between burst of enthusiasm, I've been seeing corrosion on the bearing. Given how much raw fuel I've found in there at times, that's not surprising.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:44 PM
  #70
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This is what greeted me 3 flights after winning my first comp with this engine. It clunked to a stop in the starting gates when I throttled up.

The crank ring sealing area was a bit dinged up, but not enough for YS to replace the crank case when they fixed it under warranty. Once this was fixed and the later problems sorted out in that first year it ran like a train..
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:14 PM
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Yikes....that's ugly!!
How/what do you use to get that crank ring re-installed??
Have a favorite method or tool?
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:33 PM
  #72
bjr_93tz
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Originally Posted by Dave Harmon View Post
Yikes....that's ugly!!
How/what do you use to get that crank ring re-installed??
Have a favorite method or tool?
I've tried screwdrivers, plastic cable ties, profanity and whatever else I can think of, but in that other recent thread that mentioned the crank installing tool YS now offer,( http://www.yspower.co.jp/en/engine/acce.html ) Scott mumbled something about a 2 thou feeler gauge and a couple of screwdrivers and I gave that a go and it worked a treat. My rear bearing isn't exactly a press fit into the crankcase but it's tight enough.

The cam gear bearing is the bugger, the one in the cap comes out just fine with heat and a quick tap, but I always find myself bending up different shape pieces of wire and other oddments to get the crankcase one out. I've vowed to make up a tool but I'm just to lazy.

I just replaced the cam bearings with the ones I had in stock, and you can change them without pulling the head (or throttle) off. I just slid the tappets off their pivots, pushed up the lifters, pulled the cam gear, removed the lifters, pulled the bearing and put it back together in reverse order.

I did put a timing mark on the prop driver first though!!

Last edited by bjr_93tz; 03-27-2017 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:28 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjr_93tz View Post
I've tried screwdrivers, plastic cable ties, profanity and whatever else I can think of, but in that other recent thread that mentioned the crank installing tool YS now offer,( http://www.yspower.co.jp/en/engine/acce.html ) Scott mumbled something about a 2 thou feeler gauge and a couple of screwdrivers and I gave that a go and it worked a treat. My rear bearing isn't exactly a press fit into the crankcase but it's tight enough.

The cam gear bearing is the bugger, the one in the cap comes out just fine with heat and a quick tap, but I always find myself bending up different shape pieces of wire and other oddments to get the crankcase one out. I've vowed to make up a tool but I'm just to lazy.

I just replaced the cam bearings with the ones I had in stock, and you can change them without pulling the head (or throttle) off. I just slid the tappets off their pivots, pushed up the lifters, pulled the cam gear, removed the lifters, pulled the bearing and put it back together in reverse order.

I did put a timing mark on the prop driver first though!!
I had a devil of a time getting the shaft back in with that blasted crank ring!!
I simply could not do it so I made a tool from a piece of brass toilet tubing that works but it is still difficult.....it looks something like the YS tool.
Also....I made a simple tool to remove the inside cam bearing...I'll get a pix of both for you tomorrow.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:44 PM
  #74
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So in order to sum it up oilwise, the appropriate oil for the 185CDI is 50/50 coolpower blue and red,
not green and red. Kind of fuels we can get here, mix them and dilute accordingly with methanol and nitro. The local distributor does not bring Morgan oil, just fuels.
What is the 200, new YS? any specs?
Thanks and no worries
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:02 PM
  #75
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Quote:
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This is what greeted me 3 flights after winning my first comp with this engine. It clunked to a stop in the starting gates when I throttled up.

The crank ring sealing area was a bit dinged up, but not enough for YS to replace the crank case when they fixed it under warranty. Once this was fixed and the later problems sorted out in that first year it ran like a train..
Yeah, been there done that Brett. Best I can figure out with mine, is that it was cage failure. Most likely another consequence of the low oil % I was running.
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