ERichard

Hey Guys,
I see in the latest Model Aviation (Nov 04) , page 95 is the YS performance ad showing the 160 DZ.....anybody know the details about when (or if) it will be availble? Troy, any info to share?

-Erik

BTW, Troy...thanks for all the recommendations for my 140 DZ....It pulls like a beast now![sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

jeide

My Feedback: (111)

Hi Eric. Hows the secret project coming? I'm sure it will be world class. It's probably hard to make much progress with your expanding family. Congrats. Jim

Troy Newman

Erik,

Glad to hear its pulling great. Its amazing when you set it up right it just works. I have been really surprised how close all the motors run when the guy picks the right fuel, prop and setup.

Just really quick some details. I've been getting a tongue lashing on the NSRCA list about this subject....But that's OK let's see how they stack up next NATS. Everybody has their opinion. And the when the chips are down look at who performs the best. I ran the rest and choose the the DZ over the others. You gotta run what works for you and if you think you can compete then come on in the water is fine. We need more people to play in the pool.

I spoke to YS Performance yesterday and the word is end of Oct that is 4-5 weeks out on the 160DZ's.

Setup I running Cool Power 30% Heli mix

YS plug
APC 17-12 std turns 8600-8800
NMP (Central Hobbies) new DZ style header
ES DZ pipe with the 5/8" aluminum insert.

Sound was 92db at the NATS running this prop at 8200 RPM. Its pushing the 94 limit in F3A when its not restrained. I just travel adjust to get 8200 rpm on the motor and it meets the sound with some to spare...plus in low elevations has gobs and gobs of excess power

The motor is an improvement over the 140 in that it has less shake rattle and roll to it. All the 160DZ's run at the NATS were in the finals and the first 2 stroke was in like 12th with only the top 8 in the finals. My opinion it answers the power question in spades.

weight is the same as the 140 and most of the parts are the same. I have not seen the one in the ad yet...but I heard it has a different looking pump. Yamada was working on some new pump designs and I don't know the results. I have run the new pump and its no different than the regular 140DZ pump. In fact my 160DZ has a 140 pump on it. I swapped it out to see if the new and the old style were any different. To my knowledge the new 160's will have the regular pump on it. Might eb a surprise but both perform the same. I think the new style they experiented with was easier to produce (read that less $$ and less hassle)...But they learned a few things to make the original have the same improvements.

Not positive on this as I have not really been in the loop. I like the older style as its adjustent is easy to access. The newer style one I have has a screw on the side and needs the belly pan to come off for adjustement. Just preference I guess. I can't tell the difference in the two pumps.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

You're taking a "tongue lashing" over on the NSRCA list because you make comments like this:

""As for power and performance I will say this...the top end power of an FZ-Sport or 140L is not equal to the 140 2 strokes. Where as I feel the 140DZ's power is on equal footing. Others will argue this but If prop and setup right the 140DZ will haul the same model just as well top end as a 140RX. I experienced it and flew a 140EFI and RX's and the DZ in the same Smaragd and chose the performance of the DZ. I don't want to argue this point with anyone if you believe different that's fine...Lets go compete and see where the chips fall."-Troy Newman

"I've been getting a tongue lashing on the NSRCA list about this subject....But that's OK let's see how they stack up next NATS."-TN

"Performance does matter! When the chips are down that is. Pilot workload is lower and a major advantage with the YS motor."-TN

Yet you fail to mention that the reason most of the top guys run YS is because *gasp* they are sponsored by YS. It's thiers and your obligation to push this engine. And if you pimped this engine out any harder, you'd be wearing a green velvet hat and driving a cadillac with curb feelers.

It's humorous that people want to assume that if the "top" guys use something, it must be right for them too. After all, if it wins on Sunday, it sells on Monday. Yet last year at least, a lowly little OS 140RX won masters. Masters, where most american pattern flyers compete. Not FAI. Masters. So let's see, is masters not demanding and competetive? Let's have a quick look....

1 Takeoff K-1
2 Stall Turn, 1 ¼ Rolls Up, ¾ Roll Down (U) K=4
3 Humpty Bump with Options K=2
4 Slow Roll (D) K=3
5 Immelmann Turn K=2
6 Reverse Cuban 8 from Top with 2
of 4 Point Rolls (U) K=4
7 Full Roll, Half Outside Loop K=2
8 Inverted Four Point Roll (D) K=4
9 Half Square Loop with 2 of 2 Point Rolls K=3
10 45 Degrees Down, 1 ½ Positive
Snap, Exit Inverted (U) K=4
11 Push-Pull-Push Humpty Bump, ½ Roll Down K=2
12 4 of 8 Point Roll from Inverted (D) K=4
13 Top Hat, 3 of 4 Point Roll Up, 1/4
Roll Down, Enter Upright, Exit Inverted K=3
14 Avalanche with 1 1/2 snaps, Enter Inverted (U) K=4
15 Stall Turn with ½ rolls K=2
16 Triangle Loop, ½ Roll Up, 2 of 4 Point Roll on Top, ½ Roll Down,Exit Inverted (D) K=5
17 Half Square Loop with 2 of 4
Point Roll, Inverted to Inverted K=2
18 Three Turn Inverted Spin, Exit Inverted (U) K=4
19 Outside Immelmann Turn K=2
20 Pull-Push-Push Humpty Bump, 1/2
Roll Down, Full Roll Up (D) K=3
21 Bunt with 2 of 4 Point Roll Out K=3
22 Square Loop On Corner, 1/2 Rolls
in Legs 1 & 3 (U) K=5
23 Landing K=1
TOTAL K=69


Hmmm...I see lots of snaps, oodles of vertical, plenty of point rolls, and a LOT of power hungry manuevers. As much so as FAI? Not quite but nothing to sneeze at for sure. STill quite demanding of the pilot and the engine. And yet a 2 stroke won at the nats last year? (Don't know about this year, and don't care...same pattern.) Hey, that's good enough for me, and thousands of others out there. If the situation changes and I feel that a YS would be a better choice than my current set up, I'd switch in a split second. But at the moment I'm sitting here typing this, that isn't the case.

The main problem is not the power or performance of the YS, but the reliability. They fail on a ratio of at LEAST 10-1 to just about any other engine except maybe the Webra. The 2 strokes fail and let you down too, they have their issues as well. But it's that ratio that makes me, and many others, cringe. If you ask me where I get my "numbers", it's a rough estimate....but my eyes work, and have been in good working order for years. Actually 10-1 is pretty conservative, around these parts I'd say it was at least twice that much.

You're just doing your "job" so to speak, and I'm sure you like the YS engine (that much is obvious). But surely you can see why all the comments about YS? It's not exactly one of the worlds great mysteries that they have some severe reliability issues compared to other brands. Hopefully these issues will be addressed with the 160? I hope so, I'd love a RELIABLE 4 stroke, but I have yet to find it. And I'd much prefer flying to messing with an engine.

Well, I'd play more but I have to go fly now. Any bets that my lowly OS will crank on the first flip? Any takers?

-M

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

Hey Mike and Troy.

My buddy Joe and I have had this discussion over and over. Our eyes work also and in our experience here in Tx, it is exactly the opposite of what you are describing. At most contests we go to, it is the 2c guys that are scrambling to get things set, and have the idle run and etc etc etc.

The group of YS guys(not sponsored) simply show up and fly. This is the majority of the time. The YS engines are idling as long as needed. No rush of starters and orange(yellow) boxes to start on the line(as we see with 2c) etc.

I did have a DZ shell out with close to 200 flights the day of a contest, but put the backup in and away I went.

From what we have seen, I agree with Troy the pits time spent on the engine is much less than many of the 2c we have witnessed.

This is, of course, just what I have seen. It is amazing to me how there is a tremendous difference depending on where one lives and what the top dogs are flying. This applies to planes and styles of flying also. Find it very interesting.

The YS is more expensive, the fuel is more expensive. I have toyed with the idea of switching but just haven't seen enough to change and more importantly, don't want to go through the 2c learning curve.

My$.02

ed

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I have to agree with what Ed is saying. I have only been back flying pattern for this
year after a considerable layoff but I haven't seen any reliability problems here
in Texas with the YS engines. I just started flying with a YS 1.10 and it was very
easy to set up and adjust. The first part of the year I was running 2-strokes and
had my share of problems. At the Jetero contest I had three flameouts out of five
rounds , not very good !! I haven't had my YS long enough to compare but from
what I've seen at all the contests so far I don't see a reliability issue and I love all
the power and low end torque. The engine has only a couple of dozen flights on it
but the idle is amazingly slow and reliable , so far so good.

Powermaster 30% heli fuel
APC 15x8 prop
YS plug
Performance Specialties Muffler

tommy s

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

I think after this thread is done, we should move on to JR vs. Futaba. Then Ford vs. Chevy etc.
Seriously, I think all agree that you should run what works for you - YS or Webra or OS etc. I think what Mike is saying (and I agree) is that a sponsored pilot is being compensated for going out and saying what a great product XYZ has. It is up to the individual comsumer to to decide to rely on the credibility of the spokesperson or not. I have no issues with Troy, I appreciate all of his posts and volumes of good info that he posts. However, the mere fact that he HAS a YS 160 to fly before the general public indicates that he has a "special" relationship with YS - you have to decide if it is Troy the YS guy, or Troy the all around poster of good info that you are reading. I believe that Troy really believes in this motor and YS - that's fine. I'm going out to fly my OS 140RX now, since thats what works for me.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

We already agreed to disagree, but a certain statement brought it back here, so I responded.

To you Texas guys why are you lumping YS against all 2 strokes put together? Because it's more even that way?

Seriously though, it's just not like that here at all. hasn't been in as long as I can remember. I've said it before, but maybe climate could play a role? Seriously. Or perhaps it's just what you understand? I can't see a difficult learning curve with an OS. Webras, 3Ms occasionally, yes, they can be picky. From every OS I have seen around here, and I do mean every SINGLE one, that curve looks like this:

a: put fuel in it
b: attach a glow igniter
c: flip prop
d: set needle the same way you would a freakin trainer
e: fly and forget about it

No wierd fuel, no modifications, no 50lb box of spare parts (except for the infamous rear bearing that drops in about 100 runs), just go fly the thing. I don't see the curve.

I still say take an average guy, alone and give him 2 engines: a YS DZ and an OS 140 RX, and see which one he gets running first. Then talk to him a year later, ask him how many flights on each, and how much he has spent in parts, fuel, etc. Let's not forget the infamous YS backfire that wads up spinners...even threw a prop and cut one competitor's chin open, he had to get stitches, not a good way to zero 3 rounds.

Here's the bottom line: YS is not the only game in town, and you do NOT have to own a YS to win. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's great too. But just because Chip or Troy or whoever uses a YS doesn't mean it's the best engine for YOU, and taht you're just kidding yourself if you run anything else. THAT line of thinking grates me more than anything else.

-Mike

Team unsponsored
Advanced nobody
Still managing to win 1st place without a YS on occasion
Still never zeroed a round due to engine issues

byoung466

My Feedback: (16)

FORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I'm not comparing anything. I don't have a problem with OS , Webra, or any
other engine if that's what you like , I just haven't seen the problems with the YS
engines I keep reading about. The problems I have seen are usually related to
contamination in the fuel. Dirt and the YS regulators just don't mix according to
Dave Shadel. This happens to 2-strokes also I'm sure.
I guess I'm guilty of overkill with my fuel filtering but I have filters before and
after the pump on my fuel can, and a filter on the clunk in my fuel tank and inline
to the carburetor.

tommy s

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

FORD WHAT ????

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

CHEVY DANGIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Foo. Everybody knows Chevy>Ford.



-Mike

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Yet you keep reading about them dontcha

Just kidding guys, I'm just in one of "those" moods, don't take me TOO seriously.

-Mike

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

Amen Mike
The only Ford I like is John Forces Mustang Funny Car !!!

tommy s

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

BTW, I lost my bet. It took 2 flips to crank my engine this morning.

Do you think I might need $300 worth of replacement parts? Switch to fuel that costs $25 a gallon? Call an engine guru long distance on his cell? Wear a kevlar vest so as not to get impaled by the prop when it backfires? Go through my tralier full of engine parts that I pull behind my CHEVY van to see if maybe I have the cure already? Spend a week reading old posts about various tricks and fixes just to possibly get one flight in? MAYBE?

This simply will not do, I admit it: I'm just kidding myself, I need a YS.



-Mike

byoung466

My Feedback: (16)

I keep forgetting this is a hobby.....have fun....spend money.....fly planes.....

Drive my FORD to the field and hope I get 4-5 flights w/o my Webra quitting...but now w/ my Stainless bearings and remote pump (on order) I might be all set.....MIGHT BE...........

rgreen24

My Feedback: (6)

I would never fly anything apart from YS. nothing against two strokes, but I have never ever had a real problem with my engine not running.. 2 strokes are great but personally for me I love the sound and performance of a 4 stroke. That's the thing guys, use what you personally think is best, not because someonme else flies it..... And I will be bying a 160 when it comes out

Bob Hartwig

Such and impassioned discussion we have here. Nothing wrong with that, we all have favorites at a given point in time.

But please make sure that all that knowledge from to above posts gets on the practice field to help newcomers get the correct (working) set up for whatever powerplant they are running. Even if it is a FORD Cosworth.

I know many of you already do this.

fishgod

My Feedback: (13)

Now you can take this with a grain of salt. I have been flying R/C for a total of 4 years. I have been competing for 2.5 years. My first pattern ship was a highly used Goldberg Finesse 120 which I picked up last year in the beginning of the season. I did some work building for a guy and got my first 4 stroke which was a YS 120NC new in the box. I got out on the net and read all the YS setup tips that I could find. I put the engine in the plane, set the top end with a tach, set the low end for consistent idle. I ran the motor for entire season and it ran like a swiss watch. This past year I have been running a Mintor 170 setup per factory suggestions. I had it running in my first 2 meter ship, a focus. This was also my first big 2 stroke and my first tuned pipe. The motor has pretty much run flawlessly for 135 flights. It would have more flights if it wasn’t for the weather this fall. I’m not trying to tote my own rope. I just made sure that I followed manufactures directions, took credible advice from the internet and my local flying field.
From my limited experience in the hobby I have seen people have problems with just about every make of 2 and 4 stroke motors. Probably 8 out of 10 times it is user induced. (ie. Needle settings, fuel system, bad plugs, old fuel).
Funny thing is that this year I have seen more people have problems with gas motors (50cc on up) then glow burners. So much for fuel it and forget it.

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

Geez guys, all this discussion over old technology. Check out the powerplants in the top FAI flyers at the European Championships. Mostly electric - eegads. The Matts have gone electric, can CPLR be far behind? Electric powered pattern - man I'm gonna miss the sweet smell of burned glo fuel, but not yet :-)

Who knows... in a couple of years we could be having the same argument (OS vs YS), but with electric motors...

KEEP PRACTICING!!

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

Seen quite a few batteries crap out. Nothings perfect.

tommy s

Adamg-RCU

If there was an award for over reacting on online forums and discussion lists, MHester would have it.

MHester, Troy had repeatedly stated that he runs YS because he NEEDS their performance to allow him to compete without being limited by the equipment. Like Troy, I too flew OS 2-strokes until I needed the performance of the YS to compete and not be held back by equipment. I'm not sure why you won't accept that that is all Troy has ever said.

Troy has repeatedly stated he runs what he needs to for performance, then looks at sponsorship options. If you think his words are bought and paid for like a TV 'spokesperson (i.e. Britney Spears and Pepsi)', you are simply not understanding reality.

Masters results have absolutely nothing to do with Troy's statements: he is stating that YS performs at a higher level than 2-strokes, and Masters does not speak to such performance.

Adam Glatt
Team YS Performance

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I wuff you too Adam

-M

Edit: BTW adam, how do you define "over reacting"? All I see here is a strong disagreement, and a little teasing. Troy's a big boy, he can take it, and so can I. Or are you still fuming over that little battery thing about 2 years ago? Yes, I remember you quite well. You haven't changed much either. BTW you going to the Nats next year?

Adamg-RCU

Post quantity, word count in each post, and argumentative and comically exagerated statements are the signs I am seeing.

Fair enough, nothing wrong with that. It didn't come through like that, though.

Was I really fuming about that? I don't recall it that way, though I don't like to see myself reacting emotionally. I am impressed that you remember details about me, and if you really can evaluate someone on so little data I may just have a thing or two to learn from you.

Not sure about Muncie. You saw I was there this year, right? We'll see how the budget and schedule works out for 2005, as everything is planned around France.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Those are the signs of over reacting? Interesting. I'm always arguementative by nature, and quite often comically exaggerate....for um...comedy. So I'm not sure how that works out to over reacting, but ok. I thought I had clearly stated earlier I was just argueing and poking some fun as well, look up and I'm sure you'll see it.

I remember you because that subject, unlike this one, was very personal and possibly fatal. I almost lost my best friend. You told me then I was over reacting by saying "be careful with lithium batteries, they aren't perfectly safe as marketed". At the time, not one single warning, disclaimer, or anything was out there. Nothing. Nada. All I did was post a warning, because to me that wasn't as trivial as engine choice...that was possibly someone's life. And you told me I should just shut up, and that I was over reacting. I believe time has proven with no doubt whatsoever that I was not over reacting. They are potentially fatal if something goes wrong. Now you see warnings and disclaimers on EVERYTHING associated with lithium batteries. I wonder why?

So yes, I remember you quite well. I hope you make it to the Nats.

-Mike