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Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

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Old 10-08-2009, 05:10 PM
  #901
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Thanks Joe! I'll stick with 8 minutes and skip the Suhkoi until they come out with V2.


I'd like to buy a back up prop just to have on hand. I think the one I have now is a 21 x 15. Any thoughts on prop selection?

Thanks,


JP
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Old 10-09-2009, 07:28 AM
  #902
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


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ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

Thanks Joe! I'll stick with 8 minutes and skip the Suhkoi until they come out with V2.


I'd like to buy a back up prop just to have on hand. I think the one I have now is a 21 x 15. Any thoughts on prop selection?

Thanks,


JP

The 20.5X14 or 21X14 APC will do. I use the 20.5X14.
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Old 10-09-2009, 07:54 AM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hey Joe I heard they may be a CF APC clone of the 20.5x14 soon. I hope so that just seems to be a sweet spot prop for the Integral. I'm convinced that a stiffer prop is imprtant and I'm looking to stick with them from now on. Mike
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:56 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I have a couple cracks on the side of my plane from a "bump" on my first flight. Does anyone have some insight on how to reduce the paint sold by CARF for use in an airbrush?

Thanks as always,

Joe
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:54 AM
  #905
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


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ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

I have a couple cracks on the side of my plane from a ''bump'' on my first flight. Does anyone have some insight on how to reduce the paint sold by CARF for use in an airbrush?

Thanks as always,

Joe
Joe, do it the easy way. Repair from inside to stiffen and put a sticker on the spot.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:02 AM
  #906
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


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ORIGINAL: mups53

Hey Joe I heard they may be a CF APC clone of the 20.5x14 soon. I hope so that just seems to be a sweet spot prop for the Integral. I'm convinced that a stiffer prop is imprtant and I'm looking to stick with them from now on. Mike
Mike,

Matt Kababjian just CF'd one of my old APCs to experiment with. I shipped it down to Chris to do a side by side with a stock prop since he has an Eagle Tree. Prop is about 7 grams heavier with CF. Dave Lockhart has been CFing props with success, as well.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

CFing? I'm a little behind the times. What does it mean to CF a prop?
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:25 AM
  #908
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Brenner,

CF - make it out of Carbon Fiber Matt K. has made the APC electric props CF props now to make them stiffer.

Arch
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Old 10-26-2009, 07:17 PM
  #909
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

For all those experts still listening can you speak up on your experience with props and their relation to power usage. I seem to be using more power than necessary as I keep having to put 3600 mAh back into the packs after 7 minutes.

I bought my Integral with a 21x14, but that seems to pull a lot of mAh. I tried a 20x15, but that pulled even more. Now I bought a 20.5x14 to try as well.


My concerns are:

1) Slow downlines.
2) Power efficiency (i.e. increasing practice time per battery).

Has anyone ever tried a 21x13W?

What are your experiences? What criteria are folks using in their prop selection?



Joe
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:08 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hi Joe,
There are a bunch of variables here. 3600mah is a lot for 7 mins and maybe you need to work on throttle control. Moving to electric flight is a bit different to IC and it seems that many people initially fly too slow and then find the throttle stick and hit it a bit hard, maybe that's where you are at.
You also may want to look at timing on your Jeti 90; if you reduce the timing the motor will be more efficient but reduce the power available. Since you have buckets of power this may be worth looking at.
Unfortunately you are unlikely to solve the "practice time per battery pack", would be great to be able to fly practice flights for 15 mins or so but it's not going to happen with the current generation of battery packs, I set my timer for 10 mins and put back 3500 to 4000mah.
In terms of braking, I assume you want to increase the braking effectiveness. I use a Spin 99 which has a slightly different braking system, take your brake to 40% and see how it performs then increase/reduce from there until you are happy.
All the best, Simon
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:28 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hey Simon,

Thanks for the input! I'm certain that my throttle inputs are playing a significant role in my power usage. I am still working on refining those gentle and subtle finger muscles


Do you really fly 10 mins on a 2M ship?

Joe
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:34 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I go through battery almost that quick, most of my data gathering has shown that I consume 500 mAh per minute. So I don't think you are too far out of the ballpark.

The 21x14 or 20.5x14 are about the best you will get in terms of efficient power, the rest will either perform worse, or use more battery to perform the same.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:55 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hey Joe, I will defer to Chad regarding air time for the Pletty powered models, he has probably had more flights on these that I have had cups of coffee!

I fly a Hacker and I get 9-10 minutes flight time on a 2m plane, as I land once I get the 30 sec "beep". Inrunners are more efficient and use less power for the same type of flights. The limitation is that the outrunners unload more in the air and give you that "unlimited power" feeling that can be lacking on the Hacker (depending on the battery). Let me say, however, that if I am practicing tall manouvres I cut the time back a bit (maybe 8-9 mins). Most I have put back into my 5350 packs is 4500mah which is pushing the pack too hard, most of the time I put back about 3500-4000mah.

Simon
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:37 AM
  #914
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Thanks Chad! That answers that. 500 mAh/minute is exactly what I'm seeing so I guess I'm doing the best I can for a Pletty setup and not really killin' the throttle more than usual which is good to know.


Simon - I may have to try a geared Hacker inrunner just for comparison's sake. I wonder if Joe L. still has that Beryl for sale????


Joe
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:02 AM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe, you need to better get hold of your throttle management. In calm condition I can get down to as low as 3000 to 3200ma put back in a flght pack after a Masters sequence. Probably 3500 to 3600ma is average for me. It is probably even less since I am charging my packs with the Thunderpower 1010C. Keep your flights under 8 minutes and look at finding the right horizontal speed to fly the Integral at. You are probably going too fast horizontally. On my Pletty/YGE controller setup, I have typically seen anywhere from 3000 to 4000ma consumption in all kinds of conditions. My Beryll and Integral with the Hacker C50-13XL setup do consume less on average of course. My prop of choice right now is the 20.5X14 on both setups. I prefer the Pletty overall, but have no complaints with the C50-13XL other than lubing it every 50 plus flights.

Play with your throttle curve a little also.

PS - The Beryll has your name written all over it Joe. Better yet. I'll make you a deal on the Beryll along with Jasons old Integral as a package deal
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:17 PM
  #916
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe - I sent an email via RCU. If it didn't make it can you PM me?

Thanks,

Joe P.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:53 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Brenner,

It means taking a stock APC and laminating it with carbon fiber cloth. Wayne Ulery has been doing this (and other modifications to props) for a number of years. Last year, I started experimenting with CF on some of the APC-E props. At relatively low RPMS, the stock prop runs the same as a prop with CF added. At higher RPMs, the stock prop starts to flex and this increases noise, current draw, and reduces RPM. At that point, adding CF to stiffen the prop results in minimal to substantial performance increases (the amount depends on just how much flex was occuring).

Regards,

Dave


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ORIGINAL: Brenner

CFing? I'm a little behind the times. What does it mean to CF a prop?
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Old 10-27-2009, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Dave,

Do you use tow or cloth when you're laminating the props? I assume you go down to the hub as well? I really liked how Quique's props worked at the WC and it seems as though you can gain a lot of performance with slight adjustment.
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:38 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ryan Smith

Dave,

Do you use tow or cloth when you're laminating the props? I assume you go down to the hub as well? I really liked how Quique's props worked at the WC and it seems as though you can gain a lot of performance with slight adjustment.
A new thread on "CF Laminating APC Props" would be GREAT . . or at least a couple of pics )

Cheers, JB
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Lot easier to just buy a RASA than laminate an APC.
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:52 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

JAS,

Sorry for the brief high jacking of your thread........

Jeff/Ryan,

I am not a composites expert by any means, and consider my CF laminate props a bit crude (but effective). I'll not start another thread, as what I do is brief to explain -
1. Roughen prop with 240 sandpaper
2. Cut 4 pieces of 3.5oz 24 thread per inch CF cloth (CF-141, http://www.cstsales.com/carbon_fabric.html)
3. Coat prop blade w/ thick CA, lay on 1 piece of CF cloth, "squeegee" CA through cloth using plastic baggy wrapped finger. Add CA as needed to ensure CF cloth is saturated, soak up extra CA w/ paper towel
4. Repeat for other blad surfaces, trim excess, lightly sand w/ 240.
5. Brush clear expoxy to fill weave, wetsand 240 between coats, and repeat until smooth surface is obtained.

That's it. I extend the CF cloth as far onto the hub as I can, with varied degrees of success. Clearly this is modifying the prop and potentially changing the stresses at the hub, and I don't know how this might affect the longevity of the prop. Thus far I have several props that are between 100 and 200 flights with no problems, and I've done this on several prop sizes including 11, 12, 13, 19, 20.5, and 21" props. For the pattern realm, my best estimate is that adding CF will have little benefit on a 21" prop turning less than ~6000 RPM, or on a 19" prop turning less than ~6700 RPM. Certainly vacuum bagging would be a better technique, but I've not ventured to learn that process to date.

Regards,

Dave


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Boyd 2


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ryan Smith

Dave,

Do you use tow or cloth when you're laminating the props? I assume you go down to the hub as well? I really liked how Quique's props worked at the WC and it seems as though you can gain a lot of performance with slight adjustment.
A new thread on ''CF Laminating APC Props'' would be GREAT . . or at least a couple of pics )

Cheers, JB
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:54 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: twoturnspin

Lot easier to just buy a RASA than laminate an APC.
Depends on just what size RASA you need!!!

Dave
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:54 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: twoturnspin

Lot easier to just buy a RASA than laminate an APC.
I agree with that. I'm using the Rasa 20x15 on my Sickle/ Pletty average draw is 3500 mils for the Masters pattern. I'm pulling 75 to 80 maps static.It's a perfect fit for that particular plane. The Sickle has a ton of drag and benefits from the increased speed this prop gives me. It could also be my style that fits the incresed speed it affords.
I'm convinced that some of the larger APC props are flexing at the tips and have caused some violent worrble situations that when it gets going will pull the motor right out of your plane. I know of many many guys who have ejected motors and everyone I know of was using an APC E. style larger prop. I'm thinking their not stiff enough. But hey that's my opinion based only on what I've observed.
Mike Mueller
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:57 PM
  #924
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Mike,

I think the prescence of the larger APC E style prop is nothing more coincidence. Am I correct that 100% of the ejected motors were outrunners mounted on the nosering only, with no aft support of the motor? I have seen nosering mounted outrunners shake violently using glow props (which most certainly are not flexing). In each instance, adding an aft support to the outrunner cured the problem.

Regards,

Dave


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mups53

I'm convinced that some of the larger APC props are flexing at the tips and have caused some violent worrble situations that when it gets going will pull the motor right out of your plane. I know of many many guys who have ejected motors and everyone I know of was using an APC E. style larger prop. I'm thinking their not stiff enough. But hey that's my opinion based only on what I've observed.
Mike Mueller
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Dave I know of 4 seperate cases this last season of motor ejections with both outrunners and inrunners. Dave Snow twice ejected and his last one was his brand new Neu inrunner. Chris Moon ejected a Pletty firewall mounted and we had another firewall mounted ejection from an AXI F3A at my field this year with Gary Stephens. All using an APC E.
My opinion is there is a correlation. Anyone is free to argue it but it's still my opinion that the E. props are too thin and too large for the stress and I'd advise using a CF prop or the APC's with the CF reinforcement. Who knows what side forces and turbulance situations happen in the air. I saw a video on violent worrble and its unbelievable what happens once it gets started. No mount or fuse could hold up to the stress.
Does anyone know the link to that video? Thanks, Mike
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