RC Pattern Flying Discuss all topics pertaining to RC Pattern Flying in this forum.

Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Reply
Old 11-16-2009, 02:39 PM
  #951
can773
 
can773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posts: 2,279
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Rune

Hi
just started to convert my old Integral to el. the old firewall is removed and found the PDF that shows Chad's firewall with the Pletty.
I think I understand correclty that the center off the Pletty is in the middel off the screws that holds it?

The engine I will use is a cheap China Axi copy ...if I work it works if not I maybe change it for a Axi ...
When you fly with a el. engine you use a bigger prop and remeber the old days with glow that you got change in the need for right thrust , but the rmp on the el.engine is lower do I need to make the right trust diffrent ?
With the YS I had 1,5 mm more that the nose indicated and that was perfect.
Yes, the center of the bolt circle is the center of the motor. One firewall will match the existing downthrust molded into the fuse, the other firewall has the motor offset about 2mm lower, to compensate the spinner location if you reduce the downthrust by about 2 degrees.

I used the factory right thrust on my Integrals, but that was with the folding props, maybe its not the same with an APC.
can773 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 03:51 PM
  #952
Rune
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vikersund, NORWAY
Posts: 725
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

The template was correct made a depron firewall just to test and to make a perfect fit ...but to no use I will make the final one just after the drawing good work Chad!
My engine is some few mm longer than the Pletty but maybe my fuse is a bit thicker inside .
This is my first electric F3a model and I'm wery exeited .
Rune is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 07:06 PM
  #953
2Sunny
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 608
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

General musings of a beginner . . .


Flew 6 packs on my Shulman Integral today, and I must admit I'm a bit perplexed. There is considerable difference between my Pletty powered Integral and this new machine. Takeoff is way shorter and requires little to no back pressure. My tiny bit of knife edge in the 2-point roll during the split-S has no coupling, and when I'm landing I don't need any down pressure to keep the plane in a constant decent. I'm assuming all this is attributable to the wing incidence, but I'm not certain Anyways, it's all good. I thought I was in love with my first Integral, but my second is taking this to a whole new level



JP
2Sunny is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 07:28 PM
  #954
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

General musings of a beginner . . .


Flew 6 packs on my Shulman Integral today, and I must admit I'm a bit perplexed. There is considerable difference between my Pletty powered Integral and this new machine. Takeoff is way shorter and requires little to no back pressure. My tiny bit of knife edge in the 2-point roll during the split-S has no coupling, and when I'm landing I don't need any down pressure to keep the plane in a constant decent. I'm assuming all this is attributable to the wing incidence, but I'm not certain Anyways, it's all good. I thought I was in love with my first Integral, but my second is taking this to a whole new level



JP
Sounds really nice - you're making me jealous! Can't wait to see you 'on tour' next summer
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 07:56 PM
  #955
2Sunny
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 608
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Ditto

But I must say this winter thing is really a downer for the newly addicted. I even went so far as to buy one of those hand warmer transmitter holders . . . works great . . .


Ya' know I was thinking you should skip the Wind 110 idea, and go right to an Integral. In fact I happen to know an incredible deal will be coming on the market soon

I'm looking forward to seeing you as well at the NJ spring contest!


JP
2Sunny is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 08:11 PM
  #956
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

JP it's only November and I am going stir crazy! I can totally relate. I actually sold my plane and my radio to fund my new project so I'm just SOL at the moment. However the future is looking bright!

I wish I had the room for a 2M ship - that's really what it boils down to. Just won't fit in my apartment or my car. I think I will be able to hold my own with the Wind though[sm=devious.gif] So I don't want to hear about any deals, lol!

You gotta post some pics when you get some
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2009, 11:31 PM
  #957
JAS
Thread Starter
 
JAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Around
Posts: 1,430
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Down pressure to land? Sounds like some of it could be CG on the other one being further back. The mix will be reduced to about nothing in the Shulman one from the set-up.
JAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 08:27 AM
  #958
J Lachowski
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 931
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

General musings of a beginner . . .


Flew 6 packs on my Shulman Integral today, and I must admit I'm a bit perplexed. There is considerable difference between my Pletty powered Integral and this new machine. Takeoff is way shorter and requires little to no back pressure. My tiny bit of knife edge in the 2-point roll during the split-S has no coupling, and when I'm landing I don't need any down pressure to keep the plane in a constant decent. I'm assuming all this is attributable to the wing incidence, but I'm not certain Anyways, it's all good. I thought I was in love with my first Integral, but my second is taking this to a whole new level



JP
See what happens when you get a trimmed plane with all the radio programming included.

PS - I thought I told you to put the plane away til spring
J Lachowski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 10:08 AM
  #959
CHV69
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ocean View, NJ
Posts: 79
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe do you still have the Integral Stabs?

Carl
CHV69 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 10:52 AM
  #960
J Lachowski
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 931
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Quote:
ORIGINAL: CHV69

Joe do you still have the Integral Stabs?

Carl
I only have two sets of all white wings laying around that I'd like to get rid of. They are one step closer to the garbage can. Sorry I meant to be politically correct. Recycling
J Lachowski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 11:25 AM
  #961
CHV69
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ocean View, NJ
Posts: 79
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I just need the the stabs.
Thanks anyway.
Carl
CHV69 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 12:27 PM
  #962
J Lachowski
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 931
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CHV69

I just need the the stabs.
Thanks anyway.
Carl
You can get foam and balsa ones made. Talk to Ed Alt about it.
J Lachowski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 01:48 PM
  #963
2Sunny
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 608
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Flew another 6 packs today

I really like the Pletty motor better, but I obviously need to work hard on learning some "mixology" because there is no doubt the Shulman plane with Joe L's professional mixes is easier to fly - except in the double roll - that I'm not sure I understand, but without question the plane with no wing incidence correction and no mixes is easier to roll axially. I did get the Pletty Integral to land better by programing spoilers like Joe L had on the Shulman plane and moving the battery a smidge forward. In the meantime looks like I need to call you Joe - so I can try to understand what the different mixes do.


Thanks for all the great input guys. Someday I promise to stop buggin' y'all


JP
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Cz79930.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	153.9 KB
ID:	1316520  
2Sunny is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 03:23 PM
  #964
JAS
Thread Starter
 
JAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Around
Posts: 1,430
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

She's a beaut... just wish I didn't hit the fence with mine at the Worlds...[sm=cry_smile.gif]
JAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 07:43 PM
  #965
woodie
 
woodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,142
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

OK, so what is the secret to this plane and the incidence setup. My Integral came from the factory with no positive incidence in the wing relative to the stab. What should it be? Downthrust? Chad has shared his setup, how about others?

Woodie
woodie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 07:44 PM
  #966
woodie
 
woodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,142
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

OK, so what is the secret to this plane and the incidence setup. My Integral came from the factory with no positive incidence in the wing relative to the stab. What should it be? Downthrust? Chad has shared his setup, how about others? The Pletty firewall outlines from Chad showed he used quite a bit less downthrus than stock.

Woodie
woodie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 08:03 PM
  #967
twoturnspin
 
twoturnspin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 273
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hi Woodie,
(All measurements relative to the tail)
Mine also came with 0 degrees incidence. I installed wing adjusters and have about +0.4 degrees incidence dialled in from memory, improved the flying characteristics considerably. I just kept adjusting it until it flew straight and level with no load on the tail.
I also removed the downthrust from the motor, stock on my plane was approx -2 degrees. In fact I measured this several times because I looks like it has upthrust but found that my calculations were correct. I was surprised to see that It didn't make a lot of difference to my trim.
It has had ~300 flights now and I reckon it's a great rig!
All the best, Simon
twoturnspin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 08:11 PM
  #968
JAS
Thread Starter
 
JAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Around
Posts: 1,430
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I changed one of the 6 that I've had. Both mine at the Worlds were stock, both years.
JAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2009, 11:15 PM
  #969
Ryan Smith
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,579
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I have built and flown one that is a true 0-0 setup with downthrust taken out (about 1/16"), and one that was built bone stock. I couldn't really tell the difference between the two of them. Otherwise they had identical setups.
Ryan Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2009, 12:04 AM
  #970
Jeff Boyd 2
 
Jeff Boyd 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 732
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I did take a little down thrust out, otherwise was just "plugged" together out of the box and it is flying great.

JB
Jeff Boyd 2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 11:34 AM
  #971
Rune
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vikersund, NORWAY
Posts: 725
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

tried to fly my Integral today ....first time with electric!
I carried out on the runway shoul just give the engine a short run on full speed just to see what happend ...and it happend after maybe 0.5 sec on full speed the engine brake lose and made a mess off the nose , its possible to fix but it will not be a pretty fix.
I know what happend it was the plywood that didnt make it ..I used 3mm high quality ply made some holes for the cooling air behind the engine but it was to weak.
I was a bit supriced I have used the same ply for both 160 and 170 DZ and with no problems....just before it brake loose it was a hugh wibration sound..
so what kind off material you guys use for the firewall ...this is a outrunner . I also see now that the mounting holes for this engine is wery close mabe a circel off aabout 4 cm , with the engine it came a alu cross meant to put on the back on the engine but I figure out that this was to heavy so I didnt used it
Rune is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 11:52 AM
  #972
Anthony-RCU
 
Anthony-RCU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ossining, NY
Posts: 616
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Rune,
What a huge disappointment! I understand your frustration. 3mm ply is too thin for a rear mounted outrunner. Remember your YS were supported on both ends, assuming you used a nose ring, greatly reducing the lateral loads. Take a look at the E forum for some firewall suggestions as well as the E-F3A site. http://electric-f3a.com/smf/index.php?board=7.0 Unfortunetaly, most of us have broken a motor out. Mine happened in flight powering up into a turn around.
Anthony-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 12:11 PM
  #973
tommy s
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 1,386
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Rune,
I'm not sure where your source would be in Norway but I'm using a
material called dragonplate which is a sandwich of birch plywood in
the center with carbon fiber cloth on the outsides. It comes in several
thicknesses and variatons of weave and center material or solid carbon
fiber. They would probably ship to you although shipping may be expensive.
Here is the web site. Good luck.

http://dragonplate.com/default.asp

tommy s
tommy s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2009, 12:41 PM
  #974
Rune
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vikersund, NORWAY
Posts: 725
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

well the firewall is still in the plane and I dont want to remove it , I need to get the right angel off thrust , the front ring off the fuse are gone half off it and rest is not "solid".
but I'm going to glue the part off the center that broke out and reinforce it...think maybe put some cabron on it or maybe add anther 3mm ply with some carbone between.
Rune is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2010, 11:02 PM
  #975
pgvillar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ausitn, TX
Posts: 5
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I need help with some strange flight characteristics. Background: I purchased an Integral early in 09, assembled it (slowly), and just began flying it. I have 17 flights on it now. Setup is with Hacker 14xl w/22-12. I've flow with the CG right about on the center of the wind tube, and I have also tried flying with the CG forward of the wing tube by 1/4inch.

Now the problem: I get the plane trimmed for level flight at mid throttle hands off, and then chop the throttle. Hands off the plane will pitch up. In order to make the plane somewhat reasonable to fly I have throttle mixed with elevator as follows: at high throttle there is 3% up elevator mixing, and at low throttle there is 3% down mixing. That is a total of 6%! I consider this excessive. And, this does not completely resolve the problem, as the pitch characteristics are speed sensitive. For example, after a long down line I pull into level flight with lots of speed. As I try to hold a level flight line a couple things are happening - 1.) the airspeed from the down line is bleeding off and 2.) as throttle is added the elevator trim is changing due to the mix. Bottom line is that it is darned hard to fly a straight line with the plane as it stands today.

Other info: wing and stab are at 0-0. I have not measured the motor thurst line, but I am reading that the stock integral has ~2 to 2.5 degrees down thrust. I am thinking that I need to remove the down thrust.

Any ideas?
pgvillar is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:29 PM.