RC Pattern Flying Discuss all topics pertaining to RC Pattern Flying in this forum.

Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Reply
Old 06-21-2012, 05:43 AM
  #1001
jnred123
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 88
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe
I just got mine a few months ago as well.
Lets get this thread going again with the semi retro Intregral, can't be too bad Shulman and Jesky flew them for a long time.
Cheers
Greg
jnred123 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 06:26 AM
  #1002
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Sounds good to me. Every contest I go to, I look at all the planes and pick my favorite - it's always the Integral (unless Dave's Bravo is around). And I fly intermediate, I just need a plane that flies straight. There should be plenty of info in this thread, and others, about what to do and what to change to get a pretty darn good flying airplane.

Did yours come with the silver or clear canopy? There are not many new planes left out there so I bought what I could find - the picture showed the 'old' pic with the clear canopy but I'm not sure what I'll get. Supposedly the silver one is lighter.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 06:35 AM
  #1003
Brenner
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgman, MI
Posts: 711
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I had a pair of Dave Snow Spark wings on my Integral. Highly recommended! The snaps were considerably more consistent, and the plane picked up quite a bit of speed range. Dave says this was because the top hinged wing on the stock Integral creates a lot of drag.

In the interests of full disclosure, I also had a set of Dave Snow anhedral Stabs as well.

Brenner ...

PS-> You also save a lot of weight over the stock wings too...
Brenner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 06:52 AM
  #1004
woodie
 
woodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,142
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

Sounds good to me. Every contest I go to, I look at all the planes and pick my favorite - it's always the Integral (unless Dave's Bravo is around). And I fly intermediate, I just need a plane that flies straight. There should be plenty of info in this thread, and others, about what to do and what to change to get a pretty darn good flying airplane.

Did yours come with the silver or clear canopy? There are not many new planes left out there so I bought what I could find - the picture showed the 'old' pic with the clear canopy but I'm not sure what I'll get. Supposedly the silver one is lighter.
Joe, the stock Integral flies very well with no changes. I have a 'few' flights on Integrals and the setup recommendation I give people is basically move the CG forward to roughly 165mm from leading edge. That CG makes the plane track very well and reduces knife edge 'tucking'. Other than that, no other changes are really necessary. If you get really carried away, you can add adjusters, etc, but the Integral flies very well in stock configuration.

CARF reduced component weight quite a bit from the original release kits and it is pretty easy to make weight without replacing components if you use a light motor such as Pletty, Neu, Hacker. Flying Intermediate, you don't need big batteries so you can use 44-4500mah batteries and that helps also. My son has an Integral that is under 5K gram limit using a Himax 6330 and Flightmax 5000mah batteries and we didn't replace any components.

Woodie
woodie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 01:53 PM
  #1005
jnred123
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 88
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe
Mine came with silver canopy thankfully, for some reason I don't like clear canopy's on F3A models.
I bought it to power it with Brenner's contra drive but I think there are better airframes for that power system so its just been kinda sitting around.
I currently fly Oxai Austral XX's with YS power and like them a lot.
Not sure what to power the Integral with, I keep changing my mind between an outrunner and IC.
The post from Woodie is encouraging on weight because I thought it might struggle to make weight electric.
I think I'm in a similar class over here to you, just need a true flying machine which my current Austral's are hence I haven't been in a hurry to replace them but I should get cracking on the Integral anyway.
What are you going to power your's with?
Cheers
Greg
jnred123 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 02:05 PM
  #1006
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Well, unfortunately Chief Aircraft was erroneous in telling me they had a plane in stock. I got a call this afternoon saying the plane is unavailable. The Comp Arf rep said the last white one made is already sold. I'm hoping the other rep has on stored in his hobby shop somewhere.

I am pretty good at making things happen, I hope I can continue my luck on this one. An all-white composite ARF for $1000 is really meant for me.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 02:18 PM
  #1007
jnred123
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 88
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

If I could figure out how to ship it, you could have mine for a grand because I'm clearly undecided on what to do with it.
Cheers
Greg
jnred123 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #1008
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I appreciate that. I have no idea about shipping overseas.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 05:22 PM
  #1009
VerneK
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 258
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe,
Bob Kane has one but I'm not sure if he plans on selling it. I sent him an e-mail. BTW, having built 3 of them, I recommend reducing the downthrust to 1/2 degree, adding a half degree of right thrust, set the wing at 1/2 degree positive and leave the stab at 0. I had the CG at about 1/8" behind the LE of the wing tube. With those settings, it's a great flying plane. OTOH, Andrew and Jason had a lot of success flying them box stock and mixing out the anomolies.

Verne


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

Well, unfortunately Chief Aircraft was erroneous in telling me they had a plane in stock. I got a call this afternoon saying the plane is unavailable. The Comp Arf rep said the last white one made is already sold. I'm hoping the other rep has on stored in his hobby shop somewhere.

I am pretty good at making things happen, I hope I can continue my luck on this one. An all-white composite ARF for $1000 is really meant for me.
VerneK is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 05:39 PM
  #1010
getterflash
 
getterflash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wyandotte, MI
Posts: 96
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I am interested in selling. It is white NIB. Where do you live? I am in Michigan.
getterflash is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #1011
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I am in Cincinnati. I am going to nats. Or I will drive to Michigan. I really want it!

Thanks Verne
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 10:04 AM
  #1012
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

I can't believe... I just ordered an Integral!

Not sure why I can't believe it, I sure have been spending a lot of time at work thinking about it...
I also can't believe I just read through this WHOLE thread, AND, by the time I got to the last of the old pages, a White NIB Integral showed up in my PM Inbox!!

I guess I'll be seeing some of you guys in Michigan!!
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 10:53 AM
  #1013
radray
 
radray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hebron, KY
Posts: 221
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe, congratulations, I think that will be an excellent plane for you.

Ray
radray is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 07:53 AM
  #1014
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

I picked the plane up this weekend - thanks Verne and Bob!

1) I am still undecided about motor selection. I want light weight and reliable. My choices are Plettenberg 25-12 Evo, Neutral F3A, and Hacker C50 (non comp). I do have a Neu 1512 that I can use as a backup if there was ever an issue with the Neu F3A, so down time would be minimal. The Pletty 25 is an 18.4 oz outrunner that meets the required specs, but I don't see a lot of field usage, nor know about service. I imagine the Hacker is reliable and I know about getting it serviced, but if the c50 is enough, why is there a comp version for $300 extra?
,
2) I'm working through servo selection. Not sure if I want to stay with one brand, or mix Futaba and JR for the lighted possible combination. This may depend on whether or not the 9411 will fit in the ailerons; it will br close as the lite ply is cut close to 1.5in long.

JR has a cored servo that is a direct drop-in in the stab (ds831 i think). It is inexpensive and light but so far, my favorite servos (very smooth feeling) have been coreless. That being said I have little experience with JR (821 only) and no experience with Futaba.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 07:50 PM
  #1015
VerneK
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 258
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Joe,
I strongly recommend the Hacker C50-14XL Comp. The non comp versions are prone to overheating resulting in magnet separation. The comp version has a built-in fan that prevents all of that. I bought two of them 8 years ago and still use them today. In fact, those are the only two electric motors I've ever had or needed. With 25C batteries, I never use or need full power.

Verne


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

I picked the plane up this weekend - thanks Verne and Bob!

1) I am still undecided about motor selection. I want light weight and reliable. My choices are Plettenberg 25-12 Evo, Neutral F3A, and Hacker C50 (non comp). I do have a Neu 1512 that I can use as a backup if there was ever an issue with the Neu F3A, so down time would be minimal. The Pletty 25 is an 18.4 oz outrunner that meets the required specs, but I don't see a lot of field usage, nor know about service. I imagine the Hacker is reliable and I know about getting it serviced, but if the c50 is enough, why is there a comp version for $300 extra?
,
2) I'm working through servo selection. Not sure if I want to stay with one brand, or mix Futaba and JR for the lighted possible combination. This may depend on whether or not the 9411 will fit in the ailerons; it will br close as the lite ply is cut close to 1.5in long.

JR has a cored servo that is a direct drop-in in the stab (ds831 i think). It is inexpensive and light but so far, my favorite servos (very smooth feeling) have been coreless. That being said I have little experience with JR (821 only) and no experience with Futaba.
VerneK is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 08:11 PM
  #1016
Ryan Smith
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,579
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

I picked the plane up this weekend - thanks Verne and Bob!

1) I am still undecided about motor selection. I want light weight and reliable. My choices are Plettenberg 25-12 Evo, Neutral F3A, and Hacker C50 (non comp). I do have a Neu 1512 that I can use as a backup if there was ever an issue with the Neu F3A, so down time would be minimal. The Pletty 25 is an 18.4 oz outrunner that meets the required specs, but I don't see a lot of field usage, nor know about service. I imagine the Hacker is reliable and I know about getting it serviced, but if the c50 is enough, why is there a comp version for $300 extra?
,
2) I'm working through servo selection. Not sure if I want to stay with one brand, or mix Futaba and JR for the lighted possible combination. This may depend on whether or not the 9411 will fit in the ailerons; it will br close as the lite ply is cut close to 1.5in long.

JR has a cored servo that is a direct drop-in in the stab (ds831 i think). It is inexpensive and light but so far, my favorite servos (very smooth feeling) have been coreless. That being said I have little experience with JR (821 only) and no experience with Futaba.
Joe,

I've put together four Integrals, and the elevator servo size in the stab is sized for a mini servo, but the rails are a little long on each side, so they have to be cut back 2-3mm on each rail.

I've used JR since practically day 1, so I can give you a run down of servos that I would recommend.

For a standard regulated setup:

(2) JR DS9411 for ailerons
(2) JR DS3421 or DS3517 for elevator
(1) JR DS 8411 (I've been using this for years and have found no power defecit) for rudder

For an HV setup:

(2) JR DS8411 HV for ailerons
(2) JR DS 3717 HV for elevator
(1) JR DS 8911 for rudder (while many do, we do not endorse running an 8711 on 2S LiPo voltage, and certainly not for the 8411)

My Vanquish has some new JR servos in it...
(2) JR MP91T for ailerons (standard servo case footprint, low profile, ungodly amount of torque, .25oz or so heavier than 9411s)
(2) JR DS3717 for elevator (same as recommended for aforementioned HV setup)
(1) JR MPH81T (linear hall effect sensing servo, again stupid power, wanted to try something new and wanted to run all HV, had access to these)

The micro servo that I presume you are referencing (DS368) while a great servo, is not a good choice for elevators. I used them exclusively on throttle, but they are only a three pole motor and are cored.

I am not overly versed in Futaba's servos, but I believe the standard before the BLS servos came along has been:

(2) 9550 (or 9551s) for ailerons
(2) 9650 for elevators
(1) 9156 on rudder

I hope this helps. Good luck!
Ryan Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2012, 03:13 AM
  #1017
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Thanks guys! I really enjoy and appreciate all the feedback I get here.

I sanded away some if the composite around the servo slots to where the plywood supports start. The 9411 should drop right in. I am going to go with the 8411 on rudder, its a few grams lighter than the Futaba.

So it comes down to the stab. The Futabas are lighter there, and also a lot less expensive. I don't understand the draw to run one brand of servo, but it is there. But the money saved on those servos would afford a new wing tube. I honestly thought it was full of concrete when I took it out of the box, LOL. I guess that foam is pretty dense.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2012, 05:24 PM
  #1018
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

What is the best linkage system to use with the stock (phenolic?) control horns?

I was thinking about the carbon rods and titanium ends from Central, but I really prefer a mechanical linkage (not relying on adhesive). It also seems that ball links are not to be used on this type of control horn?
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 03:46 AM
  #1019
J Lachowski
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 931
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

What is the best linkage system to use with the stock (phenolic?) control horns?

I was thinking about the carbon rods and titanium ends from Central, but I really prefer a mechanical linkage (not relying on adhesive). It also seems that ball links are not to be used on this type of control horn?
Joe, on my Integrals I used the Dubro clevis on the control horn, MK ball links on the servo arm and Hangar 9 Titanium 4-40" Pro-Links. Hundreds of flights with this setup.
J Lachowski is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 04:04 AM
  #1020
2Sunny
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 608
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Hi Joe,

Congratulations on your new plane! For what it's worth, I briefly owned one of the planes built by Ryan and can say without hesitation that he knows how to build one heck of a great Integral and he can be a fantastic resource.

I also wanted to comment on motor selection. I owned 2 Integrals. One built by Ryan with a Pletty 30-10 and one built for JAS with a C50 comp and I know motor selection can be a highly divisive issue around here as I'm sure you are well aware, so I hope you and everyone else reading this will take this as the "one guy's" OPINION and not start a flame war, BUT I really think it comes down to a simple question of do you mind removing and greasing your motor at 50 cycle intervals and what's it worth to you to have a motor that simply won't fail. Personally I have never heard of a Plettenberg 30-10 failing in flight, but I have heard of plenty of Neu and C50 motors failing in flight. When you are dealing with a $3000 investment, I don't understand why you wouldn't choose the "bullet proof" option. I understand the C50 and Neu are more efficient, and that the top FAI flyers are able to discern subtle differences in power application in the mid-range of the throttle curve when comparing an inrunner to an outrunner, but at the level you and I fly I really don't think there is a noticeable difference. Plus if you follow all the advice on this thread, I am certain weight will not be an issue to the point that you need to save 2 ounces on motor selection. Not to mention that if you do a C50 in the ideal fashion with a "soft mount" the total motor weight with mount ends up more than that of a Pletty and a simple firewall mount. Anyways, like I said that's just one dude's opinion and in no way meant to denigrate anyone elses favorite choice

By the way, where are the build pictures????

Joe
2Sunny is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 04:36 AM
  #1021
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Not much for build pics yet, but I do have these

I am trying to: 1) get a plane ready for NATS, and practice, and 2) make room in my tiny house for this big plane (selling my Wind).

I will meet with Bob P. within the next few days to talk about paint and preparation, and I ordered the aileron and rudder servos. I'm not sure if I'll get anything really started before mid June or not, but if I do, there will be pics for sure.

About the motor, well I am trying to build as light as I can. A new C50 comp is just a LOT of money. A Neu is more affordable and also would have a backup motor. There is a lot of data about the Pletty 25-12 but unfortunately not many people flying it.

If ~2oz in the motor is not a big deal, I would likely go with a Hacker A60 or a Himax F3A.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Zx71780.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	29.5 KB
ID:	1776543   Click image for larger version

Name:	Vq51965.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	23.9 KB
ID:	1776544  
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 07:52 AM
  #1022
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

OK one more minor hardware question: what are the best axles and tailwheel to use on this plane? The wheels i have are 18mm wide, probably the same as the nuance. So far my only tail wheel experience is the hefty Sullivan rigs. They are nice but I imagine there is better. Obviously want something light, but also robust. I'm sure many of you know the Hebron runway, LOL.

Joe thanks for the advice on linkages. Ill go with clevises on the control horns. I have those Ti rods on my Wind.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 09:28 AM
  #1023
pat51
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: bryan, TX
Posts: 6
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

does anybody need a set of composit  wings or a slightly dinged Intergral the fuse is cracked in the middle two canopys one black one silver I think the plane could be fixed
pat51 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 09:41 AM
  #1024
Jetdesign
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mason, OH
Posts: 7,050
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Has it been assembled? Is it painted? I know there are people still looking for Integrals.
Jetdesign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2012, 12:12 PM
  #1025
JAS
Thread Starter
 
JAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Around
Posts: 1,430
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread

Having had 7 of these built in my garage, there are ways to actually take an Integral from box on Friday afternoon and test fly it on Sunday evening. Mostly, it's installing servos, mounting landing gear/tail wheel, epoxying in horns, firewall and rudder/battery trays in Friday night and then the chin and canopy mounting, servo pushrods/pull-pull Saturday and final rigging on Sunday. Just try to group glue sessions together.

We've done this with all motor set-ups too. YS-160, OS-200, Hacker C-50, Pletty 30-10 and Fury F3A. During the winter the test flight was at dusk, but spring/summer time we had enough time for 3 flights.
JAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:10 AM.