Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
04-16-2013, 04:11 AM
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RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
my pushrods are 2 1/2 on the ailerons, but take into consideration I have 4-40 dubro safety kwik-links on one side. the elevators are 1 1/2, again with the same conection on one end
04-20-2013, 10:23 PM
#1054
RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
I finally got around to building this plane - I have waited a long time 
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
04-21-2013, 08:06 AM
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RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
If you leave the stab as is and call that zero, set the wings at 1/2 + to the stab, and the motor at 1/2- to the stab and add 1 degree right thrust, you'll be happy.
Verne
Verne
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
I finally got around to building this plane - I have waited a long time
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
I finally got around to building this plane - I have waited a long time
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
04-21-2013, 01:09 PM
#1057
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RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
Correction. Add 1/2 degree right thrust, not 1 degree. Everything else I gave you is correct. The half degree is to correct a slight pull to the left at the top of tall verticals.
Verne Koester
Verne Koester
ORIGINAL: VerneK
If you leave the stab as is and call that zero, set the wings at 1/2 + to the stab, and the motor at 1/2- to the stab and add 1 degree right thrust, you'll be happy.
Verne
If you leave the stab as is and call that zero, set the wings at 1/2 + to the stab, and the motor at 1/2- to the stab and add 1 degree right thrust, you'll be happy.
Verne
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
I finally got around to building this plane - I have waited a long time
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
I finally got around to building this plane - I have waited a long time
Like most people I found the stab is about 1deg positive to the wings. It's hard to see the thrust line (from the chin crease) especially on an all-white plane, but it seems like the wings are at 0, the motor at -2, and the stab at +1. I am going to work more on finding the datum tomorrow before decide on what I want to do about wing angles.
I guess I could lay out some lines relative to the stab and see how it looks.
04-21-2013, 02:09 PM
#1058
RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
Thanks Verne, I think I remembered that.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
04-21-2013, 03:49 PM
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RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
The delam happens on the sides just above the landing gear. I added some carbon cloth in that area just above the gear plate and also mounted support crutches above the landing gear plate. In addition, I "joined" the two halves of the landing gear with a carbon strap similar to what Najary shows in his Axitra build (he used aluminum). My landing gear plate was 1/8" 5-ply laminated on both sides with carbon cloth. I ground/sanded the seam you mentioned as low as I could and then mounted the plate with a real thick, pasty mixture of cabosil and resin. I don't recommend sanding down the center of the plate because that's the area of the plate that sees the greatest stress. Every time you land, the force is trying to break the plate in half. The joiner and crutches help in that regard, but I still wouldn't do anything to weaken it.
Verne Koester
Verne Koester
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
Thanks Verne, I think I remembered that.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
Thanks Verne, I think I remembered that.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
04-21-2013, 06:35 PM
#1060
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RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
I've found the stock LG really stiff and the curved shape promotes transfering a lot of landing shock and load directly to the fuselage. Even a simi-hard landing will cause damage to the fuselage skin and LG support structure. A somewhat expensive fix is to replace the stock gear with a Bolly or similar shape gear that has a lot more flex than the stock gear. It will absorbe most ot the normal landing shock rather than transfer all the load directly to the fuselage.
Dave
Dave
04-21-2013, 08:52 PM
#1061
RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
ORIGINAL: VerneK
The delam happens on the sides just above the landing gear. I added some carbon cloth in that area just above the gear plate and also mounted support crutches above the landing gear plate. In addition, I ''joined'' the two halves of the landing gear with a carbon strap similar to what Najary shows in his Axitra build (he used aluminum). My landing gear plate was 1/8'' 5-ply laminated on both sides with carbon cloth. I ground/sanded the seam you mentioned as low as I could and then mounted the plate with a real thick, pasty mixture of cabosil and resin. I don't recommend sanding down the center of the plate because that's the area of the plate that sees the greatest stress. Every time you land, the force is trying to break the plate in half. The joiner and crutches help in that regard, but I still wouldn't do anything to weaken it.
Verne Koester
The delam happens on the sides just above the landing gear. I added some carbon cloth in that area just above the gear plate and also mounted support crutches above the landing gear plate. In addition, I ''joined'' the two halves of the landing gear with a carbon strap similar to what Najary shows in his Axitra build (he used aluminum). My landing gear plate was 1/8'' 5-ply laminated on both sides with carbon cloth. I ground/sanded the seam you mentioned as low as I could and then mounted the plate with a real thick, pasty mixture of cabosil and resin. I don't recommend sanding down the center of the plate because that's the area of the plate that sees the greatest stress. Every time you land, the force is trying to break the plate in half. The joiner and crutches help in that regard, but I still wouldn't do anything to weaken it.
Verne Koester
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
Thanks Verne, I think I remembered that.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
Thanks Verne, I think I remembered that.
Mounting the gear noticed the sheeting is about 1/8 in away (floating) from the horizontal part of the gear plate. Leaving it alone would bend the skin of the airplane. I wonder if that contributed to the cracks people found in the side of their plane? I will probably recess the gear almost flush with the skin and mount directly to the block.
So this plane had the gear block installed at the factory. The gear is supposed to bolt to the outside/bottom side of sheeting, in the chin cowl. I noticed the sheeting felt a little soft and took a closer look. You can see there is *some adhesive in there, but also some voids. So I opened up the sheeting and found the adhesive is not even contacting the sheeting in most places.
I don't have a pic of the gear installed yet, but it will be mounted directly to the bottom of the pre-installed landing gear block, which I sanded smooth and will fillet in the corners w/microballoons.
The gear is Graphtech F3A gear, customized with more sweep (just slightly more than stock integral, less than Bolly gear). It is definitely more flexible than the Integral stock gear, but I also will reinforce the sides of the fuse, once I really understand where the cracks are happening.
04-24-2013, 07:59 PM
#1063
RE: Composite-ARF Integral, kinda build thread
I think I started a build thread so I should try to put my stuff there, but wanted to share this: it's for the Pletty Advance and will get glued inside the fuse w/Hysol. It will be made of 0.080" carbon prepreg. The rear mount will be 0.060".
03-23-2014, 11:56 AM
#1064
Banned
C of G
Joe,
Bob Kane has one but I'm not sure if he plans on selling it. I sent him an e-mail. BTW, having built 3 of them, I recommend reducing the downthrust to 1/2 degree, adding a half degree of right thrust, set the wing at 1/2 degree positive and leave the stab at 0. I had the CG at about 1/8" behind the LE of the wing tube. With those settings, it's a great flying plane. OTOH, Andrew and Jason had a lot of success flying them box stock and mixing out the anomolies.
Verne
Bob Kane has one but I'm not sure if he plans on selling it. I sent him an e-mail. BTW, having built 3 of them, I recommend reducing the downthrust to 1/2 degree, adding a half degree of right thrust, set the wing at 1/2 degree positive and leave the stab at 0. I had the CG at about 1/8" behind the LE of the wing tube. With those settings, it's a great flying plane. OTOH, Andrew and Jason had a lot of success flying them box stock and mixing out the anomolies.
Verne
I'm hoping you can help as I'm just putting together an Integral I acquired and the build instructions give the c of g as 205 mm behind the leading edge of the wing LE at the root, that puts it about 20mm behind the centre of the wing tube. I thought that looked a bit rearward so looked on here, the measurement you are giving (1/8th of an inch behind LE of wing tube) would equate to something like 173mm, quite a difference, I'm assuming you're right (and also that is where I would expect it be) but can Carf be that wrong?
Phil
03-24-2014, 09:17 PM
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The CARF instructions I got with my Integrals were based on Jason Shulman's notes on the prototype. Jason ended up moving his CG forward as well. Unfortunately, CARF never updated their instructions.
If you call the stab zero, set the wing 1/2 degree positive to that, reduce the down thrust to 1/2 degree down (it's got over 2 degrees molded into the nose), add 1/2 degree right thrust compared to what's molded into the nose and put the CG 1/8" behind the leading edge of the wing tube, you'll have an excellent flying plane. The only mix you'll need is the typical down elevator to low throttle for down lines. I don't recall how much, but I'd start at 2 percent that starts kicking in at below 1/4 throttle. Jason flew one of mine (I built 3) and said it was the most locked in Integral he'd ever flown, Most of my settings came from him and Chad Northeast.
If you call the stab zero, set the wing 1/2 degree positive to that, reduce the down thrust to 1/2 degree down (it's got over 2 degrees molded into the nose), add 1/2 degree right thrust compared to what's molded into the nose and put the CG 1/8" behind the leading edge of the wing tube, you'll have an excellent flying plane. The only mix you'll need is the typical down elevator to low throttle for down lines. I don't recall how much, but I'd start at 2 percent that starts kicking in at below 1/4 throttle. Jason flew one of mine (I built 3) and said it was the most locked in Integral he'd ever flown, Most of my settings came from him and Chad Northeast.
Hi Verne,
I'm hoping you can help as I'm just putting together an Integral I acquired and the build instructions give the c of g as 205 mm behind the leading edge of the wing LE at the root, that puts it about 20mm behind the centre of the wing tube. I thought that looked a bit rearward so looked on here, the measurement you are giving (1/8th of an inch behind LE of wing tube) would equate to something like 173mm, quite a difference, I'm assuming you're right (and also that is where I would expect it be) but can Carf be that wrong?
Phil
I'm hoping you can help as I'm just putting together an Integral I acquired and the build instructions give the c of g as 205 mm behind the leading edge of the wing LE at the root, that puts it about 20mm behind the centre of the wing tube. I thought that looked a bit rearward so looked on here, the measurement you are giving (1/8th of an inch behind LE of wing tube) would equate to something like 173mm, quite a difference, I'm assuming you're right (and also that is where I would expect it be) but can Carf be that wrong?
Phil
03-25-2014, 06:23 AM
#1066
Senior Member
Hi Verne,
I'm hoping you can help as I'm just putting together an Integral I acquired and the build instructions give the c of g as 205 mm behind the leading edge of the wing LE at the root, that puts it about 20mm behind the centre of the wing tube. I thought that looked a bit rearward so looked on here, the measurement you are giving (1/8th of an inch behind LE of wing tube) would equate to something like 173mm, quite a difference, I'm assuming you're right (and also that is where I would expect it be) but can Carf be that wrong?
Phil
I'm hoping you can help as I'm just putting together an Integral I acquired and the build instructions give the c of g as 205 mm behind the leading edge of the wing LE at the root, that puts it about 20mm behind the centre of the wing tube. I thought that looked a bit rearward so looked on here, the measurement you are giving (1/8th of an inch behind LE of wing tube) would equate to something like 173mm, quite a difference, I'm assuming you're right (and also that is where I would expect it be) but can Carf be that wrong?
Phil
04-15-2014, 01:17 PM
#1069
Thanks
I started it just about a year ago - right after last year's Toledo show. I ended up building it at a friend's house an hour away, so work was limited to weekends. I had some major issues with the stock white paint pulling off the fiberglass which really killed a lot of my motivation. It took a long time but I think it came out well. I did end up repainting all the white - which while unfortunate, gives me a little more confidence in the durability of the finish I guess. It came out pretty light despite the extra paint, and a few strategically placed reinforcements.
I'm actually even more excited to sheet up the foam wing cores I have That probably won't happen for a while but we'll see...
I am hoping to fly it this weekend. I have a few finishing touches to do, set throws, etc.
I started it just about a year ago - right after last year's Toledo show. I ended up building it at a friend's house an hour away, so work was limited to weekends. I had some major issues with the stock white paint pulling off the fiberglass which really killed a lot of my motivation. It took a long time but I think it came out well. I did end up repainting all the white - which while unfortunate, gives me a little more confidence in the durability of the finish I guess. It came out pretty light despite the extra paint, and a few strategically placed reinforcements.
I'm actually even more excited to sheet up the foam wing cores I have
That probably won't happen for a while but we'll see...I am hoping to fly it this weekend. I have a few finishing touches to do, set throws, etc.
Last edited by Jetdesign; 04-15-2014 at 01:35 PM.
04-20-2014, 07:37 PM
#1072
I had my first two flights today. It took the first flight to sweep out the cobwebs and to get the expo and throttle curve dialed in, and the second flight felt great. It is really predictable; it kind of feels like it just hangs there waiting for me to tell it what to do. I don't know if it's because of how long it took to get it built
but I felt like I was getting acquainted with an old friend. It's the biggest plane I've ever flown so maybe that had something to do with it.
Last edited by Jetdesign; 04-20-2014 at 07:40 PM.
05-22-2014, 06:38 PM
#1074
It looks like I missed the wing angle by quite a bit. I remember being at about 0.6deg positive to the stab but I need quite a bit of elevator to fly level and the plane really pulls to the canopy in all other attitudes (climbs, dives, knife edge). At this point I'm thinking about wing adjusters until I figure out where I want things to be, but will double-check the thrust angle before making any changes.
I am really rusty after 3 days of flying before losing my plane at Nats last year. It is taking some time getting used to it and flying in general.
I am really rusty after 3 days of flying before losing my plane at Nats last year. It is taking some time getting used to it and flying in general.
Last edited by Jetdesign; 05-23-2014 at 12:49 PM.
05-22-2014, 06:43 PM
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It looks like I missed the wing angle by quite a bit. I remember being at about 0.6deg positive to the stab but I need quite a bit of elevator to fly level and the plane really pulls to the belly in all other attitudes (climbs, dives, knife edge). At this point I'm thinking about wing adjusters until I figure out where I want things to be, but will double-check the thrust angle before making any changes.
I am really rusty after 3 days of flying before losing my plane at Nats last year. It is taking some time getting used to it and flying in general.
I am really rusty after 3 days of flying before losing my plane at Nats last year. It is taking some time getting used to it and flying in general.
verne