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  1. #226

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Same advice here. My friend has tried to contact fliton to get a light version, but didnt even get a reply.

    So if you go ahead and buy a fliton Element 170 F3A, there's a chance you'll get a plane roughly 500 grams heavier than advertised and no way to change it for a lighter version.

    Nice if you're not serieously interested in competing and/or need a not-to-expesive training version, but if you do want to fly contests, don't by a fliton, basically that's the conclusion I have to derive from this.

    I had the plane over to check a few things and really.. the wing with servo's weighs down to 1350 grams. On the wing alone, that's at least 300 grams to much to be a serieous plane. I didn't have the chance to weigh the thing myself, now I did, so the weights in this posting are accurate.

    Also I noticed that the construction for the stab is flawed. I know the aft tube is supposed to sit 'loose' (since it's adjustable) and the front one is fixed in the fuse. This is indeed the case with my friends aircraft, only the front one is simply to large, giving the carbon tube quite some room to move. When properly attachted, one can move the stab like 15 degrees up an down.

    Since he doesnt have budget to go out and buy another (besides the question wether the new one WIL be on par with it's weight), he now has to fly with a 5.6kg 2m F3A pattern ship, which basically is nice for a high-wind trainer, but useless in all other area's.

    I'm also in the market for a 2m pattern ship, but wont buy the filton. Instead I have decided to buy the slightly smaller Sebart Wind 110s. It's about the same price, and not that much smaller to make it useless.. (1m80 fuselage lengt). Other alternatives that are full size are the 'E-Evolution' (which is even cheaper than the fliton, light, comes with bags to transport it in, but is, in my opinion, buttugly), the 'world models spot-on', same pricerange, and so on. I'm sticking to the Sebart since I know I'll get a quality product which lives up to the advertised specs.

    I have to note that the plane I'm talking about is an electric version (10S/ Axi). If he had built it with a fuel engine, say the OS 160FX, he might just have been able to get it down to 5kg, but it would still be either really close or overweight.

    Also 'Extremeflight' will release their 2m 'Vanquish' which will probably be in the same pricerange. In short: anything you can afford is better than taking the risk of getting a 500 gram overweight fliton..

    It's not even the fact that they are too heavy, but the fact that they are advertised to be lighter and fliton doesn't exchange heavy versions that makes me say don't buy it. The fact that they didn't even answer the email about the weight issue says it all.

    It's really a shame, because in all other respects it's a nice plane at a really nice price.. sigh..

    ORIGINAL: tIANci

    Actually, there was some mistake in the manufacturing for the first batch and that caused it to weigh more than as advertised. Fliton has found out why and its been sorted out as they say. I believe not all were over weight but some actually were. Mine was over weight, some got planes that were as advertised. It happens. Fliton was nice enough to resolve mine for me. They were fast to act upon it. That is good ...
    Could you PM me the email address you used to contact them?

  2. #227
    BHolsten's Avatar
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    That is not completely true!

    vsilva contacted me many times via my email and through RC-U and I forwarded the emails and even had several conversations about the emails to specific factory people. As a Fliton Rep & Team pilot vsilva did get help from me as much as I could do for him.[]

    So,.. to say no one from Fliton did not respond is not completely accurate,...perhaps not the right people responded. Let's not smack all the fliton people in the face by saying "no one responded" it's an unfair statement.


    vsilva,...many apologies it not getting your problem taken care of. I will speak with a fliton dealer to see if you can get any help.



    Regards,
    Bill Holsten

    Advantage Hobby & Fliton Field Rep/Duralite Batteries/Custom Airframes of America/Dragon Fire Customs and Guardian America.

  3. #228
    tIANci's Avatar
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Okay let's clear somethings out here. Fliton has FAILED to reply emails. Fact. Fliton Element is overweight, NOT a 100% fact as only SOME are overweight.

    I have contacted Fliton and was told its their server that has an issue, I sent emails with a delivery report bit none came back. I remember 2 years back when their server kept forwarding their emails to us. I believe Fliton has sorted it out and I am getting my replacement Element soon. That I appreciate very much.

    As stated earlier, only a few Elements were overweight and they got into the market. There was a slight issue in the factory that caused this. Its been sorted out so I was told if not don't tell me I am going to accept a replacement that is also overweight. That would be wasting time and money for Fliton.

    Hezik ... let's not assume it will be probably 500g overweight. I can talk about EF too, somehow let's be frank, people will tolerate the misgivings from EF, I have seen many on the net and experienced it myself with the EF Extra 300 and Yak54 EP versions. Same with the H9 Funtana 90 with its wing failures and the H9 Extra 260 with its delaminating UC. Both were super hot items but had that tendency to go bad.

    I own a Sebart too and let's be frank, they are built about as well as a Fliton and fly about as well too. However, the Sebarts are not cheap despite coming out from China. You will be surprised how much it costs to manufacture an EF or Sebart or any other branded ARF. So let's not start this I BELIEVE so and so is better. Heard it all and its the same thing. Sebarts and EF planes are not cheap, you pay a premium for them but then what are you really getting.

    I got friends who have flown or seen Oxai planes, they are not that great for the price. That too is a fact. I believe the Element is not in full production yet. If it is and it does not live up to what they advertise, send it back to the LHS. Well, you have a contractual relationship with the LHS and not the manufacturer only. Let's see where Fliton goes with the Element and not jump up and down then only a couple of so called pre-sale planes have weight issues.

    Let's be more passionate about the hobby and not the brand.
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  4. #229

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    ORIGINAL: BHolsten

    That is not completely true!
    Say What? I don't know if you were responding to my message, but what I posted is entirely true. Fliton did not respon in any way.

    vsilva contacted me many times via my email and through RC-U and I forwarded the emails and even had several conversations about the emails to specific factory people. As a Fliton Rep & Team pilot vsilva did get help from me as much as I could do for him.[]
    who's vsilva? I'm talking about a dutch friend of mine who also got stuck with a lead fliton element 170, and he mailed fliton about it and got NO response at all.

    So,.. to say no one from Fliton did not respond is not completely accurate,...perhaps not the right people responded. Let's not smack all the fliton people in the face by saying "no one responded" it's an unfair statement.
    It is 100% accurate, no-one at fliton bothered to reply, not even a 'we got your email' message.

    vsilva,...many apologies it not getting your problem taken care of. I will speak with a fliton dealer to see if you can get any help.
    Would you be willing to do the same for another poor slob who got a heavy version?

    Wether or not ALL elements are to heavy is besides the point. The way the situation is now, is that if you buy one, you risk the chance of getting a heavy version without any way to exchange it. I hope Fliton will realise this is a really bad situation and will try to make a little bit more effort to get happy customers. Right now I don't think anyone in the dutch F3A scene will buy a Fliton, based upon the current experience. I know I won't and i am in the market for a ship like this..

    Hezik ... let's not assume it will be probably 500g overweight.
    I'm not assuming anything, I have had the plane over here and weighted it, it IS about 500 grams or more overweight.

    I can talk about EF too, somehow let's be frank, people will tolerate the misgivings from EF, I have seen many on the net and experienced it myself with the EF Extra 300 and Yak54 EP versions. Same with the H9 Funtana 90 with its wing failures and the H9 Extra 260 with its delaminating UC. Both were super hot items but had that tendency to go bad.
    I have seen several (like 10+) EF planes and they all lived up to the expectations. However they are maybe to light for gas engines or people who fly them full throttle in dives and stuff like that. However, whicheverway you look at it, I have never heard of an EF, Sebart or Oxai plane which comes out of the box 500 grams above specification.

    I own a Sebart too and let's be frank, they are built about as well as a Fliton and fly about as well too.
    C'mon, this is simply not true. They're both made out of balsa and plywood, yeah, that's true, but that's about where the similarity stops. On the Element, Fliton has done nothing to reduce the weight, it's all massive wood. Compare:



    to the inside of your fliton and then tell me they're constructed the same again

    One thing I do agree about with you, that's the fact that EF and Sebart are similar quality. This is not strange, since they come from the same factory.

    However, both Sebart and EF use Oracover to cover their planes, a high grade quality covering. I don't know the brand of covering used on the Fliton, but do know it's not Oracover, it's the same crappy covering as Kyosho uses, for instance on their Calmato. If you were to put a fuel angine on your Element 170, you'll have to re-cover it with good covering in less than a year, the stuff that's on there when you buy it, will never stay on longer than that.

    However, the Sebarts are not cheap despite coming out from China. You will be surprised how much it costs to manufacture an EF or Sebart or any other branded ARF. So let's not start this I BELIEVE so and so is better. Heard it all and its the same thing. Sebarts and EF planes are not cheap, you pay a premium for them but then what are you really getting.
    I'm not talking about 'heard'. I'm talking about having the actual experience, having handled the planes, and noted the difference in quality. It's there and clear to see for everyone who takes the trouble of looking. I'm not saying you're not paying extra for a brand name, but you're also getting a higher quality plane. There's 0% 'hearsay' in what I'm saying. As far as pricing goes, the picture above is a Sebart plance which comes out at the same price as the Fliton. Only downside is it's marginally smaller, it's 1m80 fuse length.

    An even cheaper plane which is about 1kg lighter in total, is the E-Evolution (search for it at lindinger.at), it's not only cheaper, it comes with wingbags for wings and stabs. Ok, I think it's really an ugly plane, but it's affordable, light and flies well (again: no hearsay!).

    I got friends who have flown or seen Oxai planes, they are not that great for the price.
    Now let's be Frank, there's no comparison between an Oxai plane and this Element, from any perspective. True, Oxai's are way to expensive and I wouldn't buy an Oxai as well, but let's not go and say the quality of an Oxai is comparable to this Element..

    That too is a fact. I believe the Element is not in full production yet. If it is and it does not live up to what they advertise, send it back to the LHS.
    Wether or not it's in full production, doesn't matter. My friend bought one, no-one told him it's a 'not in full production' model and it does NOT live up to the promised weights, as stated, it's at least 500 grams too heavy. The LHS states he delivered the plane as was delivered to him by Fliton, which is totally true. Besides that, I don't know if you realise what the postage and packaging is on a plane this size. As a last remark: he bought it to fly contest with. If he were to send it back right now, he'd lose half the season.

    Before we go there: lucky for him in the netherlands the beginner and novice class allow a plane to be heavier than 5kg.

    Let's see where Fliton goes with the Element and not jump up and down then only a couple of so called pre-sale planes have weight issues.
    This is NOT a pre-sale plane and i'm NOT jumping because it's too heavy, I'm 'jumping' because Fliton doesn't do anything about it, not even a simple reply to an email.

    To be honest, I DO like the Element, if it were on par weightwise. It's a good looking plane, looks good in the air and flies well as well. To me it was a huge dissapointment it was way too heavy and fliton doesn't respond to inquiries about this. I'm not expecting top-notch quality for the price, can live with the fact that it's engineered 'old school' with a lot of formers, thick balsa and nothing done to reduce weight. As you mentioned, it's really reasonable priced so one can't expect a rolls-royce. However, one should be able to expect something that is not at least 500 grams to heavy.

    Reasons why this plane is too heavy:
    1) too thick balsa was used to cover the wing and fuse. Also there's a lot of reasonably dark balsa in the fuse, which means it's not only thick, but heavy as well
    2) there's simply too much wood in the construction: all steering surfaces are solid wood, everything on the inside is solid wood, there's way too many formers in the aft-section
    3) the covering is cheap quality, thick and heavy. After a while the colorlayer will seperate from the top layer
    4) too much glue was used to glue it together

    My apologies if i come accross a little blunt, to me it was really dissapointing, since I had high hopes for this plane. Was originally planning to get one myself. Also I'm not English, Dutch is my native language.

  5. #230
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hezik ... you are not blunt, you only want to read what you want in what we write. I do not wish to start something but I say this with much 'love', perhaps you need to learn to read things OBJECTIVELY. Example, I said do not assume, I mean all the Elements, I already said what happened with a few that got out. But your remarks seem to be sweeping based on that 1 plane. I am not paid by Fliton or am a brand rep, I did get a heavy one and my new one is on the way. Actually, I am ordering a few more for some friends too now that Fliton has informed me what happened.

    As for when I say I heard, it comes from those who fly at that level and have touched/owned or checked an Oxai out in detail. I am not comparing an Oxai with the Element, I have to be nuts, so again, I ask you to be objective in how you read what we write. Its a mere hobby.

    Regarding the EF comment, it is bunched along with other planes with examples. They have their own problems but what I am saying it not that its LOUSY but people will work around it and they just accept it, unless the wings are warped etc.

    I owned a few Flitons and have flown them along with many planes and having flown my Sebart Angel, I dare to say that the Fliton Extra 330 Freestyle flies as nice as the Angel. I know it. Perhaps you need to try both to say where the similarity stops. Of course they still are different sort of planes but if we talk about how well it handles, both handle as well.

    I shall leave it for now. Let's keep it as a happy hobby and learn to read things objectively. No point shoving our point down someone's throat with so much fervor.
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
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  6. #231

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    tianci, Oh my goodness! You are truly in rare form. I understand hezik's disappointment. For some, participation in pattern flight has it's share. It seems to me, Fliton has their
    own unique set of problems related to building "lead sleds"! This might even be a trend.You have to give hezik credit because not only was he specific in his approach but at times he was clear, concise & objective in his findings. These overseas manufacturers need to realize that they cannot ignore problems with their products halfway around the world & expect to survive in this global economic situation we all find ourselves in at this time. Let's face facts, simply put, if you elect to build junk it WILL catch up with you & you will find yourself on the losing end! It is just a matter of time because there will always be someone out here that will not put up with these second rate products & will take them to task in forums like this somewhere on the internet. I don't know about you, but hezik's command of the English language was clear enough for me! Now, who else would like to step up this week & get straightened out!____Regards, TNWalker

  7. #232

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    ORIGINAL: tIANci

    Hezik ... you are not blunt, you only want to read what you want in what we write.
    Offcouse I'll disagree .. and go further by saying it's the other way around. I'll explain what I mean:
    Example, I said do not assume, I mean all the Elements, I already said what happened with a few that got out.
    That is exactly the problem I'm having with it. I'm not saying all Elements are too heavy, I trust that if Fliton recognised some came out too heavy and they say they corrected the problem, that they actually did that.

    Fact still remains that the first batch contained planes which were heavy and planes which were good. Fact is also that if someone has an Element in their shop right now, it's probably a first batch version. So if you go out and buy one, you're basically gambling. If you're lucky you'll get a 'good' one, if luck is not on your side you'll get a heavy one.

    That in itself isn't even the major problemen, misstakes happen, and for a lot of people it won't even matter that much, as stated, even weigting in at about 5500~5600 grams, it still flies fine.. with a fuel engine you might even reach the 5kg mark, though barely and in heavy winds one could even say it's an advantage. However, the FAI rules are clear: 5kg and not an ounce more. So if you plan on competing with this plane, and you're on a limited budget, it's up to you wether or not you want to take the gamble of losing at least one season because you were the unlucky one that got a heavy one.

    As I said, I'm not willing to take that gamble, especially since the aftersales support by fliton seems to be lacking.

    Its a mere hobby.
    Couldn't you have told me that before I sold my house for airplanes, my wife left me, and so on?

    It is a hobby, true, in the end we're all grown men/women who go out on the field to play with their big toys. However, if you invest somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1000~1500 euro in a plane, you can at least expect whatever you get delivered meets the specifications.

    Regarding the EF comment, it is bunched along with other planes with examples. They have their own problems but what I am saying it not that its LOUSY but people will work around it and they just accept it, unless the wings are warped etc.
    True, true, but the problem is.. a plane which has a weak spot but is not too heavy is something you can work around. A plane which is 500 grams too heavy is.. well.. useless. The only way to get the 500 grams of of it, would be basically rebuilding half the thing. I''m contemplating removing the entire firewall, the cockpit floor and backside, half the formers and also make cutouts in the wing. The original landing gear was already replaced by a bolly gear.

    I owned a few Flitons and have flown them along with many planes and having flown my Sebart Angel, I dare to say that the Fliton Extra 330 Freestyle flies as nice as the Angel. I know it. Perhaps you need to try both to say where the similarity stops. Of course they still are different sort of planes but if we talk about how well it handles, both handle as well.
    Agreed, I'm not stating all fliton airplanes are too heavy or lack in quality. What I was saying is that IF you buy an element it's a gamble AND that, in my opninion, it also has it's quirks besides that, like bad covering.

    I shall leave it for now. Let's keep it as a happy hobby and learn to read things objectively. No point shoving our point down someone's throat with so much fervor.
    You'll have to understand that Fliton leaves me no choice on this matter. I'm helping a friend out by trying to get the point accross to Fliton that this is not the way to go. My apologies if I offended you in any way.

  8. #233
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    hezik,..............

    I am a Field Rep. for Fliton and at the time a Team Pilot for Fliton. I responded to everyone of vsilva's emails and private message and past along the information to the proper people. I went out of my way to help,...to even contact him recently to see if he had been taken care of yet. I am not a factory owner,...but I am a "Rep." with a high regard to customer service,..However, I don't make the decissions as to who gets helped. I very sorry vsilva has not been taken care of yet or has not been responded to yet by a Fliton factory person.[]

    What I was saying is, as a Fliton Field Representative and Team pilot,......somone from the organization did respond,....me!!!!! So,..your statement is not entirely fair and accurate with regards to the comment he recieved no help. If it would satisfy you I would (not going to do as it would be totally un-professional of me) be more than happy to clear the air and forward all of the correspondence to you, as I save all the email and PM's that have customer service related issues that I have been involved in.

    It's simply a slap to my face and all the time and effort I have put forward in helping people to get things resolved, technical support, etc.

    I'm not mad, upset or pissed off,.....offended yes,..as I hope you would be if the shoe was on the other foot.[8D] I think your willingness to help shows your passion for the sport and your willingness to help another flyer. My hats off to you,...but you rarely get any results bashing a company or a product on an open forum. It usually will come back to haunt later on as/if you look for sponsors.

    Please,..any negative comments related to this subject just PM me,..thats the proper way to vent,...thanks in advance

    Bill Holsten

  9. #234

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    RE: Fliton Element 170


    What I was saying is, as a Fliton Field Representative and Team pilot,......somone from the organization did respond,....me!!!!! So,..your statement is not entirely fair and accurate with regards to the comment he recieved no help. If it would satisfy you I would (not going to do as it would be totally un-professional of me) be more than happy to clear the air and forward all of the correspondence to you, as I save all the email and PM's that have customer service related issues that I have been involved in.
    I think there's a mixup here. I'm not saying you or whoever didn't help or reply to vsilva. I have a dutch friend (NOT vsilva) who also has a heavy version and HE tried to contact fliton through several channels, but got no response whatever.

    I'm not mad, upset or pissed off,.....offended yes,..as I hope you would be if the shoe was on the other foot.[8D] I think your willingness to help shows your passion for the sport and your willingness to help another flyer. My hats off to you,...but you rarely get any results bashing a company or a product on an open forum. It usually will come back to haunt later on as/if you look for sponsors.
    Well, I can understand your perspective but you have to understand mine as well. I didn't go blirting out in the open it was too heavy when we first established that. In fact, I defended the plane to a lot of people. I also told a lot of people it was not structural, that fliton had recognised the problem and corrected it.

    However, since Fliton doesn't respond and my friend's still stuck with a heavy version.. what are my options? I'm trying to jog something here, I'm hoping maybe this approach will wake up someone.

    There's a dutch saying, in which I strongly believe, which would translate in 'one catches more flies with honey than with vinager'. But if you're well out of honey, then maybe it's time for the vinager

    I'm still hoping Fliton will correct this situation and if they do, I'm 'a big enough man' to say my initial comments might have been to harsh on them. Untill then, I don't think I said anything that should offend anyone, I just reflected the facts in this particular instance.

    really, in the end I'm just addicted to RC-flying, train a lot, help people out as much as I can and overall not a bad guy. I didn't mean to offend you in any way.

  10. #235
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    hezik,

    I understand the frustration and the frustrations of the others. I don't know what else to say on the subject, except go to www.advantagehobby.com they have Fliton products and are a very good company to do business with also.


    No hard feelings,...I tend to get a bit ramped up over the whole subject. I do understand your point and wish you the best of luck and have a sucessful flying season.

    If you need any assistance, drop me a PM.

    Best Regards,

    Bill Holsten

  11. #236
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hezik ... yes I agree with the fact that the current 1st batch is touch and go, or gambling as you call it. That is most correct. We can actually, get it weighed before we purchase it off the LHS. There are laws about trade description and fitness for purpose (implied contractual terms).

    What I am getting at is that your posts sound like (not saying that you intend for it to be) its just bashing a brand on the basis that your friend's plane is overweight, along with a few here on RCU. Hell, mine was overweight too!

    I agree, FAI rules DO NOT allow for the planes to be 1g over 5kgs. But it is not that all the Elements are overweight and they happily are misleading the consumer. Some in RCU have owned it and flown it and its as per advertised by the manufacturer. Do those planes not get any credit. Also, by replacing mine Fliton has shown that they are solving a problem that I have with my Element, not to forget that they know why it got overweight. Its not a design problem, I can tell you that much. Well, if the next one comes and its OVERWEIGHT, then I will start the bashing, you can rest assure I will do it.

    Hey, how did an Element cost between 1,000-1,500 EU?

    TN ... I think you missed the point, please don't say I am a rare form in that sort of patronising manner. In my personal experience about the Element problem, Fliton has not ignored me. An explanation was given and a solution along with it, to my satisfaction. Please note I did get an Element much earlier and I stated clearly on RCU it was overweight. I am not bias in favour of Fliton. You call them lead sleighs, what about those that are not overweight? You think its because they could not care less? If they could not, I will not be getting a replacement of which they assure will weigh in as advertised. Perhaps maybe 1-2g heavier but I can live with that.

    Let's see what RCU has been saying about these ARF planes:

    Modeltech Magic Extra - fuse will break into 2 on a slightly hard landing ... learn to reattach your plane
    GP Lancair - wing tears apart often ... learn to glass and fabricate metal bracket for 2 piece UC
    H9 F40 - UC rips out easily ... learn to glass or add more wood
    H9 F90 - severe flutter, wing blows apart ... learn to fly slower than slow
    Aeroworks Edge 540 (I think) ... fuse will break just behind former that meets wing leading edge ... mix some epoxy put more lite ply on that plane
    EF Extra 300 45" - servo wells are a tad too small, H stab is weak and need to use supplied CF strip, firewall needs to be reamed out etc ... learn some hobby skills to fix all that in a 95% ARF
    Xtreme Composite Edge 540 2x2 - composite material shearing off from wood ... learn to fix it but more importantly, learn to spot it early
    Kyosho planes (earlier models) - covering comes off into nice ribbons ... learn how to cover a plane and be a pro at removing residual solar film colour on balsa

    Despite all the above problems ALL the above sold like hotcakes.

    Fliton's main problem is their failure to handle customer service properly. That is why its boiled to a point that people feel they are trying to rip hobbyists off. But are they? Let's be fair.
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
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  12. #237

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    tianci, I'm sorry but I am not familiar with a single one of the models you named off in your above response. Without belaboring the point, I will say that these people you are
    dealing with at Fliton need to learn about the proper way to handle problems related to consumer satisfaction! In this business environment it can make a difference in continuing
    to build & sell quality pattern planes or winding up selling used rickshaws for a living! As always, Regards____TNWalker

  13. #238
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    TN ... I could not agree more with what you say ... they need to more than just buck up on that front!
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
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  14. #239
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    RE: Fliton Element 170


    ORIGINAL: BHolsten

    What I was saying is, as a Fliton Field Representative and Team pilot,......somone from the organization did respond,....me!!!!! So,..your statement is not entirely fair and accurate with regards to the comment he recieved no help. If it would satisfy you I would (not going to do as it would be totally un-professional of me) be more than happy to clear the air and forward all of the correspondence to you, as I save all the email and PM's that have customer service related issues that I have been involved in.

    It's simply a slap to my face and all the time and effort I have put forward in helping people to get things resolved, technical support, etc.
    Bill I truly admire what you do to help . . but seriously . . you will knock yourself out trying to help everyone around the World. You seem to be very much "The Lone Ranger" ! ! What can you seriously do to help Hezig's friend OR someone in England . . or Australia. What Hezig is looking for is genuine help . . not kind words.

    ORIGINAL: BHolsten

    I'm not mad, upset or pissed off,.....offended yes,..as I hope you would be if the shoe was on the other foot.[8D] I think your willingness to help shows your passion for the sport and your willingness to help another flyer. My hats off to you,...but you rarely get any results bashing a company or a product on an open forum. It usually will come back to haunt later on as/if you look for sponsors.

    Please,..any negative comments related to this subject just PM me,..thats the proper way to vent,...thanks in advance

    Bill Holsten
    Bill . . "Bashing" . . OR . . honest ???? Are you saying it's better to suck it all in, and say to yourself . . "WOW that plane looks great BUT what a boat anchor . . boy sure won't tell anyone about that! Just better get a helper with a strong back . . Oh . . and not enter any major comps with it !" [

    Companies that give good results will GET good results . . and it shouldn't be any other way. Oh . . and I wouldn't want to be sponsored by an under performing organization. It's not in MY interest.

    Cheers, JB
    South Australian Pattern Association web = http://sapa-f3a.blogspot.com/

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    What I am getting at is that your posts sound like (not saying that you intend for it to be) its just bashing a brand on the basis that your friend's plane is overweight, along with a few here on RCU. Hell, mine was overweight too!
    I'm not really bashing on the brand. I have owned 2 fliton planes and they were fine. What I'm bashing is the fact that fliton KNOWS there are at least a few Elements out there, but doesn't do anything to correct it. They know who they shipped it to, if they really wanted, they could recall the heavy ones. It probably wouldn't even be needed to open the boxes, the weight difference is so big, it would probably show just by weighting the entire box.

    I agree, FAI rules DO NOT allow for the planes to be 1g over 5kgs. But it is not that all the Elements are overweight and they happily are misleading the consumer.
    Not all Elements are overweight, but THEY ARE willingly misleading the customer by not recalling the heavy ones.

    Some in RCU have owned it and flown it and its as per advertised by the manufacturer. Do those planes not get any credit.
    They do. I clearly state, several times even, that there are light ones out there. That doesn't change the fact that if you purchase one, you might get a heavy one.

    Also, by replacing mine Fliton has shown that they are solving a problem that I have with my Element, not to forget that they know why it got overweight.
    By not even responding to other peoples inquiries about it, they have shown not to be consistant in their after-sales support.

    Hey, how did an Element cost between 1,000-1,500 EU?
    A basis airframe does not fly. I was talking about the plane including engine, servo's and so on.

    TN ... I think you missed the point, please don't say I am a rare form in that sort of patronising manner. In my personal experience about the Element problem, Fliton has not ignored me. An explanation was given and a solution along with it, to my satisfaction.
    Now let me turn the tables on you a bit.. you were saying you thought that because I know someone with 1 bad plane, I wash bashing the brand Fliton, or at least, that was the impression you were getting. Well.. it seems to me that since you were helped, you think they'll help everyone, which in fact has not been the case, so far.

    what about those that are not overweight?
    If they send my friend one, I'll talk about those. As long as they haven't, I can't, since I haven't seen one yet

    You think its because they could not care less? If they could not, I will not be getting a replacement of which they assure will weigh in as advertised. Perhaps maybe 1-2g heavier but I can live with that.
    A few gram deviation is normal, they wouldn't be the first manufacturer to be somewhat on the optimistic side in that respect, but this is more than a few gram. And again, they might be helping you, they're not helping everyone - so far.

    Despite all the above problems ALL the above sold like hotcakes.
    Again, for instance, a weak wing can be reinforced. A plane that's to heavy, cannot easily be made lighter.

    I'd rather have a plane with a faulty wing bolt mounting plate (as long as you know before flight) than one that's way overweight. The first is easy to fix, the second isn't.

    Fliton's main problem is their failure to handle customer service properly. That is why its boiled to a point that people feel they are trying to rip hobbyists off. But are they? Let's be fair.
    In all honsty.. yes the way it is now, they did rip my friend off. Maybe not intentionally and I'm not saying they're ripping everyone off, but right now they're letting customers pay the bill for a fault somewhere down the construction line. A fault they could have and should have fixed, or which they should at least fix afterwards. It's nice for you that they helped you, but they also let you suffer the problem in the first place.

    Fliton makes nice planes at a nice price. If just for funflying, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a fliton if the model and color scheme would suit me. However, these are not 'funfly' airplanes, they're ment to fly contests with, but since it's overweight, one can't.

    Again.. the fact that they helped you out, doesn't change the fact that a) they haven't helped everone and b) it seems they have done no effort at all recalling the heavy ones, or informing the public about the existance of them.

  16. #241
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hezik ... I think this is tiring BUT fun, heheheehee. Fliton DOES NOT KNOW exactly which plane is overweight. They had no idea until it was raised. About the helping, IF THEY DO NOT assist when its being brought to their attention then you know what? Bash the heck outta them. Call it favouritism or whatever else. That would be fair I say. Its digging their own grave.

    Best recourse is to always buy from a LHS, ask them if the advertised weight is assured. The consumer needs to protect themselves. My pal purchased an NIB Altair 200 from a friend. It crashed on the maiden flight. He feels its a manufacturing defect. I told him its a dead end because he purchased it from a friend, no a LHS or the manufacturer direct. No consumer protection recourse. Same here ... we need to get it right too so we have a recourse.

    Hence, if the plane is that bad, let it be. At the least we get our hard earned money back.
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
    Revver Brotherhood No. 232

  17. #242

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hezik ... I think this is tiring BUT fun, heheheehee. Fliton DOES NOT KNOW exactly which plane is overweight.
    They know it's the first batch that contains heavy ones. They know who they sent that batch to. One mailing to all those shops to inform them is all that's needed. Also, as I already mentioned, the shops could just put the entire box containing everyhting on the scale. The weight difference is big enough to be noticed like that.

    They had no idea until it was raised. About the helping, IF THEY DO NOT assist when its being brought to their attention then you know what? Bash the heck outta them. Call it favouritism or whatever else. That would be fair I say. Its digging their own grave.
    Basically, that was what I was doing already because they did not assist

    Best recourse is to always buy from a LHS, ask them if the advertised weight is assured. The consumer needs to protect themselves. My pal purchased an NIB Altair 200 from a friend. It crashed on the maiden flight. He feels its a manufacturing defect. I told him its a dead end because he purchased it from a friend, no a LHS or the manufacturer direct. No consumer protection recourse. Same here ... we need to get it right too so we have a recourse.
    In the Netherlands there's no shop that carries this plane. My Friend bought it at a shop in the UK.

    Anyways, I'll sign off on this discussion now, we're going in circles... thanks for the help so far, I hope those email addresses will help! If they do, I'll let it know

  18. #243
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hey Jeff Boyd and others,

    Thanks for the kind words Jeff,...an the support.

    But again,.. I don't just provide kind words on here to make those left feeling "Taken" feel better. I have gott'en people on here and others the help they needed,.from missing hardware in kits, ect,.. to the issue that is now being beat around. When people stop responding to me,...I have no way of helping you guys.[] I don't have the magic fix all wond for everyone,...especially for the guys outside of the USA, I have run into road blocks, some have recieved help from the factory people.

    I care enough as a fellow pilot and human being to "balance" between the customer and the product maker I Rep. for wheather it's the factory or a distributor. I have an obligation to help,.but in saying that (I may get myself in trouble here). I am done getting involved in everyone's problems on here, if you need help or assistance contact the folks you ordered it from, if you get no support PM or email me @ flybaby@sc.rr.com. This will be the last time I respond to this subject,...if you bought the product from the factory,..you will have to email Alex Shim @ alex@flitoncompetition.com and/or Mr. Lee. You can go the the websites and look under contact info: www.flitoncompetition.com or www.flitonrc.com. You can also go to Advantage Hobby and click on others in the aircraft category and click on Fliton. The contact info. is there for the websites as well. If you need replacement parts, they have it or can get it, under most of the Fliton planes you can find the instruction manual attached that you can down load, fot those that did not receive one. I know the Element 170 does not have one as of yet. The Element 30 does,..and I just purchased one to play with.

    This is one of the reasons Advantage Hobby's and I hooked up, so I could more effectively support the Fliton products, etc. I have more products and sponsors that need the same amount of time I have put in to supporting Fliton RC. The difference between all the other products I Rep. for and Fliton is, the others understand customer support in a big way,...a happy customer is one that will continue to come back for years to come. I'm a business owner,...I know about customer service as we have an exceptional reputation for customer service in our area.


    Best of luck to everyone,.....


    Bill Holsten
    Advantage Hobby & Fliton Field Representative/Duralite Batteries/Custom Airframes Of America/ Dragon Fire Graphics/Guardian America.

  19. #244

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Thanks Bill, for you HAVE helped me even though the situation is not resolved yet

  20. #245
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hezik ... you should be a lawyer, you are detailed enough to be for sure. Anyways, its not about going around in circles, all this will be an eye opener for Fliton. I did tell them about the issues in RCU. Hope they know what needs to be done. Delighting the customer is most important. I will be getting some new Elements in a month's time and I hope I will not be ranting and raving about it in here when they arrive!
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
    Revver Brotherhood No. 232

  21. #246

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    I took my element out of the box tonight and weighed the parts with a known accurate scale. This is what I got Is this one heavy?

    Wing bare as removed from plastic wrap includes ailerons 943 grams
    Fuselage bare as removed from plastic wrap includes rudder 1212.1 grams
    Left elevator bare as removed from plastic wrap 114.1 grams
    Right elevator bare as removed from plastic wrap 113.1 grams

    Total these items 2382.3 grams or 80.555 oz or 5.034 lbs

    Thanks,
    luckyflyer

  22. #247

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Hi,

    That total weight is lighter than the finish airframe weight of a high end F3A model, which are typically 2450g. They build up to around 4800g when fully installed so you shouldn't have any issues.


    UKPatternflyer

  23. #248
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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    UK guy ... what would the max weight be for a bare plane (stabs, wings, fuse, canopy, belly pan, UC, wheels etc) so that it makes the weigh in? Let' assume it will be a standard plane, nothing fancy, YS170 etc.
    Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice ...
    Revver Brotherhood No. 232

  24. #249

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Not sure; it depends how you build it up. But for the model in question, the bare model weighed 2485g and built up to 4930g, with a CDi engine and digital servos. So with a DZ170 instead you can subtract 100 g straight away but beyond that it depends on your hardware

    UKpatternflyer

  25. #250

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    RE: Fliton Element 170

    Thanks, I was worried that mine was heavy.
    lucky


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