Composite vs Balsa Airframes
06-21-2008, 10:53 PM
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Composite vs Balsa Airframes
As a sport pattern flyer I'm interested in the advantages/disadvantages of composite airframes. I know that can be something like a Chevy vs Ford. Durability would seem to be one of the selection criteria. Would appreciate some thoughts on this.
John Kruger
John Kruger
06-22-2008, 01:44 AM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
Durability IMO would go to the Composite or a painted wood plane.. A monokoted wood plane or an open bay wood plane is a little more ding and hole prone IMO.. If you fly glow, composite is very easy to clean. No need to worry about covering coming loose..
As far as anything else though, pretty even IMO.. They're both good, I just prefer composite at this point as they're a quicker build for me..
Chris
As far as anything else though, pretty even IMO.. They're both good, I just prefer composite at this point as they're a quicker build for me..
Chris
06-22-2008, 02:35 AM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
Good thing about an all wood plane is usually lighter, and it absorbs noise better, easier to achieve the sound limit restriction.
However, a composite frame does stay in forms better under all temp and humidity condition.
Adrian
However, a composite frame does stay in forms better under all temp and humidity condition.
Adrian
06-22-2008, 07:57 AM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
No question, both have their advantages. Construction speed has to go to the composite airplane, but you will need to paint it. Wood can be covered any way you want and, even with plastic film, has excellent durability. Repairability was mentioned above - yes you may get more dings with an all film covered wood airplane, but they are very easy to repair. Serious damage is much easier to repair with wood and may be impossible with composite. Wood airplanes (that you build - not an Oxai) will probably be much cheaper. Properly cared for (avoiding vertical landings 
) both should last for hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of flights. Your call!
) both should last for hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of flights. Your call!
06-23-2008, 11:58 AM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
Well I might be a bit biased, but not as much as you'd think.
In order to compare the 2 you have to generalize, and each individual design has thier advantages and disadvantages. I've seen composite planes take longer to build than wood, and seen very light and rugged construction out of composites, so it gets muddy in those waters....
It comes down to what you want. If you're in a hurry, don't build a wood kit
but if you have time and enjoy the process, it's very rewarding. Wood planes can be lighter and stiffer given the same weight and design, but the drawback is again it takes more work from you.
I have to say in my personal experience a wood plane is infinitely more durable in a glow set up than a composite plane, as far as longevity. Electric is a different story, they are about the same. But long term vibration can wreak havoc on a composite plane....that's being very general, and it depends on the construction.
Composite planes are generally faster to build, easier to produce in mass, and much more resistant to dings and dents. You can also get some really cool shapes and curves that aren't generally possible with a wood plane, unless you're a master builder.
Wood planes are easier to repair, generally speaking. There's not much you can't fix with a wood plane. They are also much easier to modify or change, and that's why prototypes are generally wood unless you have a fully staffed factory. Once a mold is made, people are reluctant to scrap it even if it's wrong.
As mentioned wood planes have a different harmonic and do absorb noise a little differently. This probably only matters with a glow plane.
Wood fuses tend to be much stiffer and don't flex under loads. Want to try something to make you drop a jaw? Do a knife edge loop in close. Take good quality video. Now go back and slow that video down durning that last 1/4 loop. That air is doing nasty things to the airplane. Most composite planes are twisting the living hell out of that tail section. A stiff wood plane doesn't do it. Again it totally depends on the design, but you will be shocked at what's going on. Also listen closely, you can HEAR it...the air going nuts as it transitions the loads over that fuselage.
The one construction type that seems immune to this is nomex, as long as extra care is taken on the seam to stiffen it. TAVS is the worst at this, and a fully boxed and cross braced balsa fuse is one of the best. What does it matter? Not sure. Just interesting and I'm glad my plane doesn't do it LOL!!!
Some of the best construction in the ARF world is done by Oxai. they have found the best of both worlds, using balsa molded into shapes with composite skins. Generally speaking they are very light and beautiful, but can be fragile. They are also expensive by most people's standards. But there is no question that they are worth the money, especially if you don't really have the time or desire to build.
I like to think we've made great strides in simplifying construction on the wood planes so it's not as painful as the "old days". But there's no way around the finish process, and that can make or break the plane. Myself and Dean Funk have gone to great lengths to detail the process so anyone can be successful doing it, but there's X amount of work to be done and it's unavoidable. Unless you enjoy it, that's a down side.
Now as far as flying? Totally depends on the design and the pilot's trimming abilities. There are some awesome designs out there right now, with more on the way, in all areas. So no matter what you choose construction-wise, you're not giving anything up as long as you do your homework.
Cost wise? Welp, that REALLY depends on you. Yeah you can get in a wood plane slightly cheaper than a composite plane, but you have to be very picky with your equipment and you pay in work. one way or another, a good pattern plane costs you. In time or money, or both. There are some really good flying "middle of the pack" composite planes that cost between $1000-$2000 and these are probably the best selling and most popular planes in pattern, in the USA. They fly well when trimmed, and if you take care of them you can get a few seasons out of them. If you are ever watchful you can get many years out of them. Quality control and weight seem to be a bit iffy with these, but again if you do your homework, and ask the right questions to the right people, you can find out what's what and get set up with a very good plane. if you get antsy and choose poorly, you will get a heavy crooked abortion. but this is not as common as it was in years past, as all manufacturers are doing a much better job.
The last thing to mention is availability. This one can be HUGE. When composite plane manufacturing and delivery is in full swing, you can get it like right now. but be smart and pick up a spare chin cowl and canopy because down the road, you might be hard pressed to find one. These planes are usually made overseas in runs and when they're gone, they're gone. Again ask questions because some are better than others. but know how much replacement parts cost, lead time on getting them, and if they will be available down the road.
There are some wood planes made in the US. But as one of the makers of these, let me tell you how that goes. We're all cottage industries, every last one of us. We do everything we can to keep lead times down and do what we can for you. But sometimes life rares up and throws us a curve ball. And if we have to handle it, that leaves nobody else to make the stuff and TCB. None of us are rich, and we do it because we love it....and nothing more. Sometimes it feels like more of a hassle than it's worth. but I just love it too much. So my point is just understand that we're not some huge company with endless resources and people on the payroll, it's just us. but we're making great strides and doing really awesome things. And I'm proud to be a part of it.
Well I hope that answered some questions. if you have any specifics, ask away and someone will have an opinion (answer is such a relative term LOL). As for me, I like my woodies...I'm biased. But my planes are the definition of composite, I use balsa, foam, plywood, carbon, phenolic, fiberglass, kevlar, everything. All materials have thier strengths and weaknesses.
-Mike
In order to compare the 2 you have to generalize, and each individual design has thier advantages and disadvantages. I've seen composite planes take longer to build than wood, and seen very light and rugged construction out of composites, so it gets muddy in those waters....
It comes down to what you want. If you're in a hurry, don't build a wood kit
but if you have time and enjoy the process, it's very rewarding. Wood planes can be lighter and stiffer given the same weight and design, but the drawback is again it takes more work from you. I have to say in my personal experience a wood plane is infinitely more durable in a glow set up than a composite plane, as far as longevity. Electric is a different story, they are about the same. But long term vibration can wreak havoc on a composite plane....that's being very general, and it depends on the construction.
Composite planes are generally faster to build, easier to produce in mass, and much more resistant to dings and dents. You can also get some really cool shapes and curves that aren't generally possible with a wood plane, unless you're a master builder.
Wood planes are easier to repair, generally speaking. There's not much you can't fix with a wood plane. They are also much easier to modify or change, and that's why prototypes are generally wood unless you have a fully staffed factory. Once a mold is made, people are reluctant to scrap it even if it's wrong.
As mentioned wood planes have a different harmonic and do absorb noise a little differently. This probably only matters with a glow plane.
Wood fuses tend to be much stiffer and don't flex under loads. Want to try something to make you drop a jaw? Do a knife edge loop in close. Take good quality video. Now go back and slow that video down durning that last 1/4 loop. That air is doing nasty things to the airplane. Most composite planes are twisting the living hell out of that tail section. A stiff wood plane doesn't do it. Again it totally depends on the design, but you will be shocked at what's going on. Also listen closely, you can HEAR it...the air going nuts as it transitions the loads over that fuselage.
The one construction type that seems immune to this is nomex, as long as extra care is taken on the seam to stiffen it. TAVS is the worst at this, and a fully boxed and cross braced balsa fuse is one of the best. What does it matter? Not sure. Just interesting and I'm glad my plane doesn't do it LOL!!!
Some of the best construction in the ARF world is done by Oxai. they have found the best of both worlds, using balsa molded into shapes with composite skins. Generally speaking they are very light and beautiful, but can be fragile. They are also expensive by most people's standards. But there is no question that they are worth the money, especially if you don't really have the time or desire to build.
I like to think we've made great strides in simplifying construction on the wood planes so it's not as painful as the "old days". But there's no way around the finish process, and that can make or break the plane. Myself and Dean Funk have gone to great lengths to detail the process so anyone can be successful doing it, but there's X amount of work to be done and it's unavoidable. Unless you enjoy it, that's a down side.
Now as far as flying? Totally depends on the design and the pilot's trimming abilities. There are some awesome designs out there right now, with more on the way, in all areas. So no matter what you choose construction-wise, you're not giving anything up as long as you do your homework.
Cost wise? Welp, that REALLY depends on you. Yeah you can get in a wood plane slightly cheaper than a composite plane, but you have to be very picky with your equipment and you pay in work. one way or another, a good pattern plane costs you. In time or money, or both. There are some really good flying "middle of the pack" composite planes that cost between $1000-$2000 and these are probably the best selling and most popular planes in pattern, in the USA. They fly well when trimmed, and if you take care of them you can get a few seasons out of them. If you are ever watchful you can get many years out of them. Quality control and weight seem to be a bit iffy with these, but again if you do your homework, and ask the right questions to the right people, you can find out what's what and get set up with a very good plane. if you get antsy and choose poorly, you will get a heavy crooked abortion. but this is not as common as it was in years past, as all manufacturers are doing a much better job.
The last thing to mention is availability. This one can be HUGE. When composite plane manufacturing and delivery is in full swing, you can get it like right now. but be smart and pick up a spare chin cowl and canopy because down the road, you might be hard pressed to find one. These planes are usually made overseas in runs and when they're gone, they're gone. Again ask questions because some are better than others. but know how much replacement parts cost, lead time on getting them, and if they will be available down the road.
There are some wood planes made in the US. But as one of the makers of these, let me tell you how that goes. We're all cottage industries, every last one of us. We do everything we can to keep lead times down and do what we can for you. But sometimes life rares up and throws us a curve ball. And if we have to handle it, that leaves nobody else to make the stuff and TCB. None of us are rich, and we do it because we love it....and nothing more. Sometimes it feels like more of a hassle than it's worth. but I just love it too much. So my point is just understand that we're not some huge company with endless resources and people on the payroll, it's just us. but we're making great strides and doing really awesome things. And I'm proud to be a part of it.
Well I hope that answered some questions. if you have any specifics, ask away and someone will have an opinion (answer is such a relative term LOL). As for me, I like my woodies...I'm biased. But my planes are the definition of composite, I use balsa, foam, plywood, carbon, phenolic, fiberglass, kevlar, everything. All materials have thier strengths and weaknesses.
-Mike
06-23-2008, 02:10 PM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
Mike
Thanks for the insight. Building is also part of the hobby so I'm not against it. However once done I sure do like to keep them around for awhile. I am concerned about the durability of the composites and how to make needed repairs. The stiffness issue was also one of the things I was wondering about. Right now I'm flying among other things a Focus Sport that is balsa and foam cores. It does seem to be holding up well but as an ARF the repairs can get tricky. Hence a kit that I can control the build on. Your Black Magic looks like a good plane and I haven't heard any negatives. I have followed the build thread on RC Universe. A question that may lead to many more on the Black Magic - is the turtle deck balsa covered foam?
Thanks
John Kruger
Thanks for the insight. Building is also part of the hobby so I'm not against it. However once done I sure do like to keep them around for awhile. I am concerned about the durability of the composites and how to make needed repairs. The stiffness issue was also one of the things I was wondering about. Right now I'm flying among other things a Focus Sport that is balsa and foam cores. It does seem to be holding up well but as an ARF the repairs can get tricky. Hence a kit that I can control the build on. Your Black Magic looks like a good plane and I haven't heard any negatives. I have followed the build thread on RC Universe. A question that may lead to many more on the Black Magic - is the turtle deck balsa covered foam?
Thanks
John Kruger
06-23-2008, 02:32 PM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
John
The composite fuses are not difficult to repair (unless you bury at full throttle...then its over!) depending on the damage, but if you have never done it and don't have the materials in hand or can get them from a friend you can end up spending a bit of cash to get what you need and figure it all out.
Most of the composite planes sold (ZN Line, Extreme, Comp-ARF etc.) are pretty good. There are always the nit-picky that use forums to make known their dis-satisfaction, but the majority are happy and have good flying airplanes, you have to remember, wood, composite, arf or kit no airplane is perfect....if there were such an animal we would all have one. The nice thing about composite planes is you get the pretty much the same plane (good or bad) every time with little effort on your part.
Today you have more selection in a composite airframe because that is where most of the high volume manufacturers are at, there are only a handful of options in wood. Also for composite you can get them in kit form like ZN, with a composite fuse, but foam/balsa wings, stab, rudder which can take months to finish....or you can get painted in the mold all composite planes like Comp-ARF which can be built in 3 days. It could take you as long to build a ZN composite kit as it would to build one of Mikes planes.
It really depends on what skill set you have, time you have, money you have and what your shop looks like.
For the last 6 years I have had nothing but ZN kits, all built by myself. All of them have been very good and some have went more than 2000 flights on glow power (over multiple users). I would not worry about the durability of composite planes, if you treat them well, they will treat you well....same goes for wood, it will fall apart if you abuse the model.
Flying wise, its a toss up....let your fingers do the talking
The composite fuses are not difficult to repair (unless you bury at full throttle...then its over!) depending on the damage, but if you have never done it and don't have the materials in hand or can get them from a friend you can end up spending a bit of cash to get what you need and figure it all out.
Most of the composite planes sold (ZN Line, Extreme, Comp-ARF etc.) are pretty good. There are always the nit-picky that use forums to make known their dis-satisfaction, but the majority are happy and have good flying airplanes, you have to remember, wood, composite, arf or kit no airplane is perfect....if there were such an animal we would all have one. The nice thing about composite planes is you get the pretty much the same plane (good or bad) every time with little effort on your part.
Today you have more selection in a composite airframe because that is where most of the high volume manufacturers are at, there are only a handful of options in wood. Also for composite you can get them in kit form like ZN, with a composite fuse, but foam/balsa wings, stab, rudder which can take months to finish....or you can get painted in the mold all composite planes like Comp-ARF which can be built in 3 days. It could take you as long to build a ZN composite kit as it would to build one of Mikes planes.
It really depends on what skill set you have, time you have, money you have and what your shop looks like.
For the last 6 years I have had nothing but ZN kits, all built by myself. All of them have been very good and some have went more than 2000 flights on glow power (over multiple users). I would not worry about the durability of composite planes, if you treat them well, they will treat you well....same goes for wood, it will fall apart if you abuse the model.
Flying wise, its a toss up....let your fingers do the talking
06-23-2008, 03:08 PM
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RE: Composite vs Balsa Airframes
Good points and I do agree. ZN kits can be a little difficult to obtain here though. Like if you wanted just one. But I have a friend that owns a Twister, and I'd be quick to say that thing is awesome. IMHO that plane was very ahead of it's time. And it's STILL a good design.
And to answer your question john, yes it's balsa covered foam.
Let's not forget there are a few people in the US that make composite planes, all with new stuff coming out this year (or soon). These look like great designs and should be more good stuff to choose from.
I'll second Chad on something, if you're in a a hurry the Comp ARF Integral is about as fast as it gets for a good flying plane. And as mentioned every plane has something about it that's either not perfect, or could be done differently. The Black Magics are no exception. No plane is 100% perfect to everyone's standards, but it's best to do a little homework on any plane you are interested in so you are prepared if something isn't what you expect to be "perfect". There is generally no defect you can't work with unless it's composite and it's very heavy. Luckily, pertty much everyone out there now has the weight issue under control so this isn't a big deal like it was a few years back when the designs grew large almost overnight...and the construction and layup techniques had to change to accomidate.
And there's always the trusty Focus if you're just starting out and want to get flying and practicing fast. It's a great beginner's plane...full 2 meter, flies the schedules very nicely...and it's fairly cheap. (It's wood).
You have plenty to choose from and it's hard to go wrong nowadays. Just do your homework, make a choice and don't look back.....
But in truth there really is no "wood vs composite". by definition they are ALL composite, they are just vastly different in the execution, how much and where. So any advice would be, go with whatever you're comfortable with, and be aware that nothing out there has any flaws bad enough to condemn the plane.
-M
PS if you're looking to control the build, then definitely get a kit of some form....balsa, composite, whatever suits you...
And to answer your question john, yes it's balsa covered foam.
Let's not forget there are a few people in the US that make composite planes, all with new stuff coming out this year (or soon). These look like great designs and should be more good stuff to choose from.
I'll second Chad on something, if you're in a a hurry the Comp ARF Integral is about as fast as it gets for a good flying plane. And as mentioned every plane has something about it that's either not perfect, or could be done differently. The Black Magics are no exception. No plane is 100% perfect to everyone's standards, but it's best to do a little homework on any plane you are interested in so you are prepared if something isn't what you expect to be "perfect". There is generally no defect you can't work with unless it's composite and it's very heavy. Luckily, pertty much everyone out there now has the weight issue under control so this isn't a big deal like it was a few years back when the designs grew large almost overnight...and the construction and layup techniques had to change to accomidate.
And there's always the trusty Focus if you're just starting out and want to get flying and practicing fast. It's a great beginner's plane...full 2 meter, flies the schedules very nicely...and it's fairly cheap. (It's wood).
You have plenty to choose from and it's hard to go wrong nowadays. Just do your homework, make a choice and don't look back.....
But in truth there really is no "wood vs composite". by definition they are ALL composite, they are just vastly different in the execution, how much and where. So any advice would be, go with whatever you're comfortable with, and be aware that nothing out there has any flaws bad enough to condemn the plane.
-M
PS if you're looking to control the build, then definitely get a kit of some form....balsa, composite, whatever suits you...
