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Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

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Old 08-18-2008, 08:31 PM
  #51  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

I wonder how that rules stands now that FAI has allowed F3M. It's basically Euro-IMAC but limits the airplanes to 32k iirc.
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:08 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Interesting. F3M is not listed here: http://events.fai.org/aeromodelling/

Could you provide links to documentation? Probably is an European event or not international class.


Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:12 AM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Tony,

The majority of my planes I have built (including a Challenge III back it the days of the 60 2C), and most have been among the lightest examples for the particular plane. Your point regarding being able to build or buy light is noted. In recent years, I have bought Vivats and Prestiges, which are composite molded airframes (priced just under $2K, incidentally) in base white. I complete the "building" and finishing of the models as they do not come with firewalls, servo mounts, fuel tank / lipo mounts, etc, and they are still among the lightest examples for these particular models. Point being, significant weight can be added or saved in the assembly/finishing process.

For those that are new to pattern, I think there are plenty of reasonably priced RTF/ARF/ARC options out there, and in a variety of sizes. It is very easy to stay under 11 lbs with so called 120 / 110 / 90 sized planes, and building/assembly skills can be honed before attempting to get the latest greatest full body 2 meter super guppy or bipe flying under 11 lbs.

FWIW - I truly would like to see a return prior rules and smaller sized models (where weight was not a concern), but I don't see it happening. I am not the least bit concerned about a competitor flying an equally sized and equally powered model at a higher weight. What I am concerned about is yet another round of escalating size and cost - as I noted before, weight is the restriction that currently limits the size of the models - increase the weight limit, and the models will increase in size and cost.

Regards,

Dave



ORIGINAL: TonyF

BTW, Dave L buys his planes also. He outfits them, but he didn't lay them up.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:35 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?


ORIGINAL: vbortone
This is a reminder note. Most of you know but it is an important detail. By "international" definition a model airplane should be below 5 Kg. This is for all types of competition. The only exception to this rule is scale which is a little higher but not much. ...
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
In F4C (Scale) the maximum weight of the complete model aircraft without fuel is 15 kg.

ORIGINAL: vbortone
Interesting. F3M is not listed here: http://events.fai.org/aeromodelling/
Could you provide links to documentation? Probably is an European event or not international class.
F3M is a provisional international class that is recognised by the FAI. You can find the details on page 47 in this document: [link=ftp://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc4/sc4_f3_aerobatics_08.zip]FAI F3 Sporting Code[/link]. As for F3M size and weight:

Minimum overall span for monoplanes ......................2.1 m
Minimum overall span for biplanes ............................1.8 m
Maximum flying weight without fuel ...........................20 kg

No engine limits except for noise: 94dB(A)@7m
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:17 AM
  #55  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

F3A without weight limit would be IMAC. And that's just madness. Have you seen inside an IMAC plane? All those gizmos that cost a fortune. And when everything is bolted in, they strap in an engine that has twice the power they need. I think F3A is cheap in comparison. And BTW, ask your friends who play golf or ride a Harley how much they spend on their hobbies. They will laugh when you tell them your dream is an Oxai plane, after all it costs just a fraction of a Harley Davidson motorcycle. And there is no shortage of recruitment, people line up to be golfers and bikers everyday regardless of cost.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Thanks, good information. Clearly this new class will open IMAC type competition internationally. What in this document means "provisional"? For me means that is in process but is not approved yet. I could not find any F3M competition in the schedules.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:23 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

BTW I humorously reserve the right to tease both golfers and bikers about their passions since I have both biker and golfer friends. I'm even married to a golfer so I poke'em every chance I get. [&:]
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

I just can't see what you/we/anyone would gain by an increased weight limit.
Just about anyone can turn up tomorrow and fly just about anything, regardless.
Making weight is easy, even with electrics... and even if you're over, no CD would give a hoot unless you're flying at the very, very top.
They know won't win... not because your planes heavy, simply because you aren't good enough. That demands dedication... and the dedicated know what works best and works within the rules... But at least you can turn up and fly... and have fun!
I on the other hand... just don't turn up!
Is that not correct Jon?
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:54 AM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?


ORIGINAL: vbortone

Thanks, good information. Clearly this new class will open IMAC type competition internationally. What in this document means "provisional"? For me means that is in process but is not approved yet. I could not find any F3M competition in the schedules.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone
I think you are right about the interpretation of "provisional". To me it seems that F3M has not really caught on. People are flying IMAC instead.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:04 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

You are correct David but we will not give up waiting, and you will be as welcome as ever when you do show up because I know you will not be able to keep away for much longer.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:09 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Nonsense. It would change but the 2-meter rule would keep it from IMAC size models.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:25 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?


ORIGINAL: Mastertech



IMAC seems to be a race to see how many servo's one can put on a single control surface.

LOL I see you beat me to the copy/paste
Actually, IMAC planes are using fewer servos than a couple years ago. One per elevator instead of two... two per aileron instead of three... two on the rudder instead of three or four. As servo technology improves, fewer units are needed... so IMAC costs are coming down. Designs are improving, but kit prices haven't changed much.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:42 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Actually I am using one servo on rudder (non 3-D setting, just for IMAC) in my YAK 55SP - 2.1. Around 200 flights with no problem.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:54 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Also, the new power setups are cheaper as well.

Not to jump in here and waste your time defending IMAC... So we have full disclosure, I'm a serious IMAC guy who has never tried pattern. However, I am very interested in giving it a try. I've been communicating with Troy and trying to learn more. I'm gathering equipment and today printing out whatever I can find on rules .
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:35 AM
  #65  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

I fly both and I have fun doing so. Less IMAC than pattern because we have a lot more pattern contest close to Kansas City. You are in very good hands if you follow Troy recomendations.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:33 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Interesting question, and one that you could perpetually ask regardless of the resulting answer each time....

Raise the weight and people will just build to that higher weight. Drop the max weight and people will simply build to that lower weight.

However, if you do change the max weight, you'll instantly obsolete a lot of equipment.

For those who were not at the NATS this year, yes they did weigh airplanes, and at least on site 3, they weighed all of them.

However, IMO, the weight limit is in some ways a 'redundant' rule/restriction. The 2m x 2m rule ultimately takes care of the weight of a pattern plane by itself. If you design a 2m pattern plane, aerodynamics and physics will set the correct weight for that airframe rather than a rule, IE the best weight might be 10lbs 2ozs, or it might be 11lbs 0ozs. And, of course, that best weight will vary according to conditions. A smart designer won't design an airframe that performs best at 12lbs- at least I hope thats they way they'd think.

Leave it where it is, or if you change it, delete it altogether.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

I'm in favor of adjusting the weight limit for electrics. However, I don't think it's practical to weigh glow powered planes with a full tank of fuel, because it would be onerous have everyone disassemble their planes to prove that the tank is full. I supose that alternatively we could require pilots to fill their tanks just before weighing, and show fuel coming out of the overflow vent, but that would still take time.

So, what I would propose is that we give electrics a weight allowance equal to the weight of the fuel that the average glow powered pattern plane uses. That way we can keep the same 5 kg limit for glow powered planes, and have an adjusted limit for electrics.

However, the fundamental problem here is that if we make any change from the current FAI weight rules, we will be creating two classes of pilots, AMA pilots, and FAI pilots, which would make it harder to transition from masters to FAI and vice versa.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:05 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

They weight the plane then fly, if theres not enough fuel they land early...not a problem.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Jeremy,

Good meeting you at the NATs.

You've stated exactly what would happen if the weight limit is changed.

However, I don't think the weight limit is entirely redundant. Monoplanes like the Integral, Osmose, Passport, etc are large for a 2x2M box (compared to older designs like Prophecy, Finesse, etc) and have little room to beneficially grow at this point if the weight limit is raised (for glow or electric versions). The Scandalous was a relatively skinny electric biplane (and right up against the 11 kg limit) and the glow Euphoria, while bigger than the Scandalous, is only moderately sized and it is also right up against the 11 kg limit. Increase the weight limit, and the bipes will assuredly get bigger. Maybe not super current, but to recall a friend had a 75" Ohio RC Ultimate that was about 23 lbs and would only have needed a short spinner to fit in a 2x2M box. Of course a current day pattern specific designed bipe would be less than 23 lbs, but the point it that removing the weight limit would allow much bigger planes

Regards,

Dave Lockhart


ORIGINAL: matchlessaero

Interesting question, and one that you could perpetually ask regardless of the resulting answer each time....

Raise the weight and people will just build to that higher weight. Drop the max weight and people will simply build to that lower weight.

However, if you do change the max weight, you'll instantly obsolete a lot of equipment.

For those who were not at the NATS this year, yes they did weigh airplanes, and at least on site 3, they weighed all of them.

However, IMO, the weight limit is in some ways a 'redundant' rule/restriction. The 2m x 2m rule ultimately takes care of the weight of a pattern plane by itself. If you design a 2m pattern plane, aerodynamics and physics will set the correct weight for that airframe rather than a rule, IE the best weight might be 10lbs 2ozs, or it might be 11lbs 0ozs. And, of course, that best weight will vary according to conditions. A smart designer won't design an airframe that performs best at 12lbs- at least I hope thats they way they'd think.

Leave it where it is, or if you change it, delete it altogether.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:09 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

ORIGINAL: Brenner

I'm in favor of adjusting the weight limit for electrics. However, I don't think it's practical to weigh glow powered planes with a full tank of fuel, because it would be onerous have everyone disassemble their planes to prove that the tank is full. I supose that alternatively we could require pilots to fill their tanks just before weighing, and show fuel coming out of the overflow vent, but that would still take time.

So, what I would propose is that we give electrics a weight allowance equal to the weight of the fuel that the average glow powered pattern plane uses. That way we can keep the same 5 kg limit for glow powered planes, and have an adjusted limit for electrics.

However, the fundamental problem here is that if we make any change from the current FAI weight rules, we will be creating two classes of pilots, AMA pilots, and FAI pilots, which would make it harder to transition from masters to FAI and vice versa.
Maybe I'm missing something here, (happens more than it used to) but I thought the weight limit issue was to make it more likely that some of the local guys with IMAC or other gassers would fly in AMA entry level pattern classes. I haven't seen a big cry out from the electric crowd for a weight change.

I'm not opposed to an AMA weight change, just don't change the 2 meter rule. If someone wants to fly a 12-14 lb. pig to compete against the 10-11 lb models I say go for it!
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

It can certainly be argued as to whether electric or glow/ignition is the "better" powerplant at this time. Looking at contest results, it would seem both are competitive. Allowing electrics to weigh more would shift the favor to electrics (no problem for me, barring a major rules change, I don't see myself ever going back to glow). And I think the current electrics have much more room to improve than the current glow/ignition setups.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?


ORIGINAL: matchlessaero


However, if you do change the max weight, you'll instantly obsolete a lot of equipment.

Can you expand on this comment? I don't see rasing the limit or eliminating it instantly obosleting a lot of equipment.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:47 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

Hmmmm.....Let's go at this a little differently.

Why not make the Sportsman/intermediate (maybe even advanced) classes have a 9 lb weight limit and ease up on the sound requirement for those classes. You've just created a competitive environment where guys can show up with a low cost, modestly powered Kaos, Venus II, Focus Sport, Leo 110, Quest, Swallow, Epsilon, WB60...(list goes on) and not have to worry about competing with Joe Bigbucks and is $6000 Oxai/YS170/Hacker super F3A setup. When they get to masters or advanced then the equipment requirements match the F3A limits.

IMO - We should be weighing in a local contests anyway, at least in Int/Adv/Masters/FAI...maybe one probationary season and one season of DQ's for not abiding and we can get the ship back on track and get erveryone back to at least attempting to meet the requirements.

Adopt F3A judging criteria for all classes and have fun.

Richard...
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

ORIGINAL: rwlewis

Hmmmm.....Let's go at this a little differently.

Why not make the Sportsman/intermediate (maybe even advanced) classes have a 9 lb weight limit and ease up on the sound requirement for those classes. You've just created a competitive environment where guys can show up with a low cost, modestly powered Kaos, Venus II, Focus Sport, Leo 110, Quest, Swallow, Epsilon, WB60...(list goes on) and not have to worry about competing with Joe Bigbucks and is $6000 Oxai/YS170/Hacker super F3A setup. When they get to masters or advanced then the equipment requirements match the F3A limits.


Richard...
Doing this WILL turn a bunch of guys away. Most all in Advance use a full 2x2 airplane. Most all in Int do also.

The whole idea is to make it more inclusive rather than more restrictive.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: Is It time to delete the weight limit in Pattern?

If a golfer tees up with the latest Calloway Clubs and can't break 100, should he be limited to department store sticks ?

If a fisherman buys the best bass boat available , but can't properly bait a hook , should he be limited to a rowboat ?

If a guy owns a Porsche and while attempting to drive a road course, knocks over most of the cones , should he be limited to a Corolla ?

Why should an intermediate or advanced pilot be " model choice limited " by a weight up or down rule ? If that person can afford and can safely fly a cream of the crop F3A model ( < 11 lbs. ! ) in the lower classes , who's to say they shouldn't ?



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