matchlessaero

Dave, it was good to meet you as well!

You're definitely right about the idea that you can fill a 2mx2m square with a lot of airplane, and bipes definitely add to the possibilities. I'm basically thinking of the idea that given a goal and any set of constraints(in this case made of rules, technology and component performance), the people that create things will likely arrive at a similar result or several sets of similar results.

Mastertech, I'm purely thinking of the idea that anytime you change rules, you will potentially change the optimum setup. IE, if you lower the weight limit, then lots of planes are instantly overweight and are out of competion (call that 'hard obsoletion') Or on the flip side, say you were to increase the weight limit by 2lbs. With that 2lbs, the electric guys would immediately jump on it to go to bigger cells and the requisite bigger ESC's and motors. And of course, you now have to have a bigger battery bay, bigger props and stronger wing....(insert sound of slippery slope landslide of expensive RC parts here) For the glow pilots, YS would immediately introduce the YS 2.00 CDI and DA would come out with the DA47 patternspecial, and yet again, we'd reinforce our firewalls and other parts to withstand the amazing grunt of our new wonder motor.

The old equipment would not have a 'hard obsoletion'(you could still use it), but would instead be 'uncompetitive' in the eyes of many. Newbies would be told 'nope, you can't be competitive unless you are running the new YS 2.00......'

Raising the weight limit won't result in an influx of cheap, legal pattern ships. All it will do is give manufacturers an opportunity to introduce a bigger/more powerful widget that we simply cannot live without.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

From what I hear this is already in the plans....more cubes, less nitro. My guess is they wont stop at 2.00 though

Nathan King

With all due respect, have you lost your marbles??

I spent all this money on a nice 2x2 and now I wouldn't be able to use it?? They can use whatever they want. Besides, the guy with the Kaos could still whoop my ***** if he was a better pilot.

Robbidos

My Feedback: (20)

I think you'd be crazy to change the rules in anyway from FAI at Masters level. The top level pilots should have to stick in the box and be able to fly the same plane in either class. Now I agree with Troy to allow laxing those rules as you go down in level. This would start to insulate the lower levels from the high costs associated with being competitive in either FAI or Masters. My optimum path would be as follows:

Sportsman - Any AMA legal plane - 50cc or less, sound at 98db or field limit, which ever is lower
Intermediate - Same as Sportsman
Advanced - 2x2m limit, 13lb takeoff limit
Masters - Current rules (2x2m, 5kg dry, 96db sound)

This keeps the costs associated with competing at the upper levels, but allows the IMAC competitors to join in the fun at Sportsman and Intermediate levels, and makes it reasonable to buy/build a pattern type plane once we have them hooked.

I fly sportsman this year and I have flown against 2 IMAC guys this year. They do fly very good, but make rookie mistakes when flying pattern (box errors usually). Getting them into the fold can only do our group good in the long run.

Edit: And just to be clear, this doesn't affect me either way. I just finished a 9lb - 12oz Focus II and I'll be finishing up a Black Magic 2.2 for next year. Both are/will be legal no matter how you slice it. I just want to bolster our ranks.

Paul_K

Good point

Still - a modest weigth raise for electrics would let us non-F3A pilots to fly 2x2 m electrics without spending $ 500 to get the gadget with 100 g lower weigth. [&o]

Here in Norway all pattern contests follow the FAI rules for the beginner and intermediate classes, as well as F3A.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

After a few days of reflection and reading everyone's response I've come to a conclusion.

If we did away with the weight limit only in AMA classes( We can't in FAI anyway) we will not incur all new designs and all that. I suspect what we'll see is largely the same planes we have now as 99% of them are designed by FAI fliers. So what would they gain by designing a plane they couldn't fly in FAI?

Do you really think QQ or Hester or CPLR will design that airplane? I think not.

Well maybe Hester but I doubt it.

If the airplane fits in a 2x2 box let it fly. Simple. Yes you will sometimes get a joker out there with some over weight cub or Pitts thinking they can fly Pattern with it, so what? Let them.

Robbidos

My Feedback: (20)

So true. Troy could beat me flying my Ultra Stick 40 even if I was flying his Euphoria. Hmmm... sounds like fun. How bout a challenge, Troy?? :-)

rwlewis

My Feedback: (4)

[/quote]

With all due respect, have you lost your marbles??

I spent all this money on a nice 2x2 and now I wouldn't be able to use it?? They can use whatever they want. Besides, the guy with the Kaos could still whoop my ***** if he was a better pilot.
[/quote]

Reality vs. perception.....

Reality - yes the Kaos guy might be a better pilot and be able to beat you.

Perception - The guy feels like he must have a high $$$ 2M plane to play the game with Joe Bigbucks and does not think he can compete with his Kaos and therefore never bothers to go out and play with the elitist pattern guys 'cause he can't afford to be competitive.

I have similar issues with IMAC...I can take a 72" Yak to an IMAC contest and try to compete in BASIC with guys flying 42% extra 300's (in BASIC!!??)....I don't think so...real or perceived....

In what world does opening the field up to 50CC gassers that weigh 14-16 lbs somehow making pattern a more reachable sport for the average joe?

Richard

AmericanSpectre505

Food for thought,..........

In my own opinion the weight limit could be moved to 11.5 to 12 lbs and open the door for more technology. The technology is there to use, if we continue to confine ourselves to a closed system,...technology and the implementation of it will suffer. []

This sport and hobby is a business,..some people make a living off of this hobby and like any business, if the pattern world confines itself to a comfort zone. Like any business, the market will eventually leave you behind and the cost to catch up becomes exponential,..as it takes more money and resources to bridge the gap again. The impact is felt by everyone, the business and the consumer in general. However, with some foresight and planning ahead for the future, knowing technology is evolving the impact is very minimal and the business grows with the technology.Yep,..I'm a business owner and not in the hobby world, but that's my two cents worth.

In some cases, composite construction is being built so light there is no longevity in some airframes, especially with the four strokes. The electrics would benefit buy being able to utalize better battery technology,...construction of these beautiful aircraft would be better. As a smaller emphasis would be placed on weigh for every piece, part, graphic, glue, paint and bolt. And after this ritual, we at times find out we may or may not make the weight limit. Then with glow engines after a year of flying you discover you have picked up more weight due to some fuel soakage and the plane won't make weight.

I am staying neutral here, merely pointing out some things and adding some food for thought. Like Chad said,..the idea is currently being kick around by the power's to be. Change isn't always bad as long as it benefits everyone involved.

As these planes continue to increase in overall mass and staying inside the guidelines now,...craftmanship will become an issue, especially with the ARF composites aircraft. There were many ARF composite planes released last year 2007 that had great quality construction, but would not make weight. It has since been corrected, but I would'nt want to be the guy that spent 2K on an airframe to find out it would'nt make weight and try and figure out what to remove next to make weight.

That's my two cents and my own opinion,......

Bill Holsten

David Bathe

Unless you're lucky enough to be flying at the very top end of the competition scene... this just isn't a problem because nobody cares if you're a bit over.
The weight and size restriction imposed by several governing sport institutions, F1 for example have always driven technology forward.
these advantages are passed on to the man in the street and at the strip.
Superb soft mount and muffler technology available today are directly due to stringent FAI sound regulations. Super powerful compact IC and electric engines... prop design, servo design... the list goes on and on.
Bearing this in mind, If we want the next generation of tools, maybe we should reduce the weight... not raise it!

TFF

Keeping the top two classes the same would be the best, but with the lower two make a 13 lb weight and make a 1.60 engine restriction and no electronic injection. Keeps all current designs legal and keeps most most engines legal, but prevents a beginner showing up with a YS1.70. The 2X2 will keep the design in check with the weight but prevents someone from having to trash his plane because it has 1/2 lb too much epoxy on the airframe or having to buy titanium wheels and spinners to get it under.

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

What's the real problem here? Sport pilots won't fly Pattern because their airplane weighs too much to be "legal"? Nope. People who know how to build light can't put something together out of available parts? Nope. You can't buy an ARF that will fly well and make the weight limit? Nope. We need to make gas-powered scale airplanes competitive in the Pattern environment? Nope. Help me out here. So far I don't see the point of changing anything. If it aint broke - don't **** it up!

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

handglider

My Feedback: (23)

Thanks John, I totally agree with you.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

John is spot on, the rules we have today by and large are NEVER enforced. So adding anything new is pointless. If you show up to a local contest with a 12lb model no one will care because no one will check you.

For years Henry Pioruns Python design went unnoticed that it was over the 2m limit in length....to this day I am sure there are still some hitting local contests that would not technically meet the rules.

LCHelilover

My Feedback: (15)

I agree that rules changes probably will have more unintended consequences than benefits.

I don't think that rules changes or equipment costs are what keep the pattern community relatively small. To a small extent it is small because of a lack of "PR",but I think that the main reason that precision aerobatics is a skill that requires a certain personality to enjoy it and that personality is relatively rare. We've had several folks at our club who see us flying pattern and want to give it a try. It just turns out that trying to fly straight and level paralell to the runway at 150 meters out and perfoming a specified maneuver at center and on each end is MUCH harder than it looks....lets face it , it's really hard!!! Most people are much happier flying fast passes down the runway inverted and then hovering and flip flopping around. Those skills aren't easy, but they are much more "impressive" to the uninitiated and can be learned much more quickly to a degree of proficiency that is "impressive". I always find it amusing when sport pilots first try "pattern". Until you try it, it really doesn't look that hard<G>.


G

AmericanSpectre505

The system isn't broken,...just bringing up a slightly different point of view on the subject.

I could care less,..but lowering the weight limit would be absurd currently. I fly within the parameters no matter what ever the rules are we have, International or not.[8D] The time limit rule for F3A/FAI was changed from 10 to 7 minutes,..change happens,....didn't effect me,.much shorter trim pass. But the honest and pure truth is,...change happen's every day.

Sorry Chad,..I mentioned you in my prior post,...It was actually a very other notable person I had the weight limit discussion with last year. The weight limit was being kick around in the International arena for consideration and was apparently squashed,..my apologies.

I am quite glad the pattern world has stuck to their foundations,..unlike the dismissal of the box in another aerobatic sport.[]

Later Guys,

Bill Holsten
F3A/FAI

eabmex

In my humble opinion the weight and the 2x2 were introduced looking at planes flying at the time, the problem here is that it seems that almost everybody is looking at the 2m size limit as a minimum, not a maximum dimension (at lest in the length of the plane). If you look at the planes of the 60 2c 120 4c era, the 120 planes where smaller and lighter than the current limit for the simple rason that there was not a 120 engine at the time that could deal with more drag and weight, those planes are legal under today´s rules, and many of them will be very competitive in the lower classes. I think the rules should stay the way they are now, and people moving up from sportman should look into planes that are somewhat smaller and can be very easily powered by a ys 140 sport or a os 120 ax (to name two) or try one of the new planes like the focus sport and still be very competitive up to masters.
We tend to look at the ends of the spectrum ultrasports, ugly sticks etc or Integrals, Passports, Shindens, Oxai and forget of planes that fit in between. Besides there are a lot of great planes, already trimed that are "obsolete" for fai but great for the middle classes gathering dust in the shop of many pattern fliers that can be had for a very reasonable amount of money.

Mundo

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Ok John

Lets not "fix it". Let's start enforcing the rules at every contest. Weigh and measure and sound check every airplane before it flies.

It's the rule already, either enforce the rule or get rid of the rule.

Why don't we enforce the rules already? Because it's too hard, it'll kill participation, it takes too much work, it takes too many people, it takes too much time, yada yada yada. Guys with over weight, noisy airplanes won't bother to show up and we can't have that now can we?

So why not make what we already do anyway the rule? Everyone here pretty much agrees we ignore the rule anyway, unless your in the running for some Iron at the Nats.

We want this sport to be enjoyable for all, we want as many fliers at a contest that we can get. Who cares if a guy is flying an airplane at 11 pounds 2 oz or 9 pounds, I don't, I suspect no one else does either.

Tim

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Saying not to change the rules because the current rules are being ignored is absurd. What happened to that "pattern Sportsmanship" we always hear about?

If a rule is being ignored there's a good reason. It's a bad rule. Change it or get rid of it.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

And pattern is broke. The entry level classes are dwindling or at a very small maintenance level. No chance for growth or survival if the entry level classes die.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

The rules are not ignored, simply not enforced most likely because of logistics at events. Just because a rule is not largely enforced does not make it a bad rule.

Again it boils down to what you hope to achieve. Some think it will boost participation, well obviously not since most every contest will allow just about any plane in, yet participation remains where it is. Changing rules won't change participation.

Participation is lower because there are more avenues to explore in this hobby, its really as simple as that.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I think the reason is more likely because when we flew the old AMA pattern you
could build a Kaos, Banshee, etc, etc, etc, with a readily available over the counter
.60 motor and standard radio for a few hundred bucks, go practice a little and go
to a contest and with a little luck maybe bring home some hardware. Today, no
matter what class you plan to fly it takes a major investment in time and money
lots of practice, which not many people have the time to do, then go to a contest
and get your ego destroyed because it is much harder than it looks, so a lot of people
just don't want the hassle or disappointment.
I like pattern or I wouldn't do it but to me, and a lot of other people if they would admit
it, the old pattern was a lot more fun and a hell of a lot cheaper. Pattern is a lot like golf,
racing, tennis, or whatever other sport you want to compare it to, the people with money,
time, and power dictate which way the sport progresses and no matter which way it's going
now, or how much we like it, or don't like it, it's not going back the way it was.
I flew in a SPA/BPA pattern contest with the Fort Worth Thunderbirds club back in March of
this year and it was a breath of fresh air, and loads of fun. If they continue to have them
I'll go again. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

tommy s

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

IMHO, tommy s is a whole lot more right then almost everyone here.

Even though rules may be ignored, or as you may say Chad, not enforced, doesn't mean they aren't felt by many thinking of entering pattern.

I can see the scenario now.

"Hey Joe, I think I'll buy an Super Flatulator pattern ARF and give it a try"

"Hey Fred, don't bother. It ends up overweight"

"Thanks Joe! Maybe I'll do something simpler, like a turbine jet"

My personal slant is just like in the South Park Movie, Blame Canada!

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Good points. Makes a lot of sense. If some people can't conform to the current rules, we'll just change them so EVERYONE can fly Pattern. That should fix everything. We'll have 30% IMAC-style planes in Sportsman because "that's what I had". And since the weight rule isn't the only thing that makes it "hard" to fly Pattern, let's get rid of the box too. That's one of the biggest challenges that newcomers face. Wow, this is going to be great. EVERYONE will fly Pattern now. I can't wait.

Guys, let's be careful. We don't really need to change anything. Really. I don't think anyone builds an overweight plane on purpose. It just happens. By the same token, an overweight plane is NOT an advantage. Given the current size restrictions, a 12-pound airplane is at a disadvantage. It's in everyone's best interest to abide by the rules. I would like to see every airplane weighed and measured at a Pattern contest. It's only fair. If I had to spend the extra time picking out wood and weighing hardware so that my plane would conform to the rules then it's only fair. The problem with that is: who's going to do it? CD's have enough work to do at a local contest already. There's not an easy solution.

On another note I know of at least a few AMA-sanctioned contests that allowed planes that didn't meet the requirements for Pattern (i.e size and weight) to be allowed in Sportsman class. This was clearly stated in all contest flyers and ad's. The reason for this was to allow ANYONE to try flying in a Pattern contest. Remember, Sportsman is a provisional class. We can bend the rules a little here so that we don't turn people away. By the time you get to Masters or FAI, you should have everything figured out. That's all I'm saying. We already have mechanisms in place to accomodate first-time Pattern pilots. They work. We also have the resources (with current technology) to build an airplane with any type of applicable power system (glow, electric, gas) that will conform to the current rules. Some may be more of a challenge than others but it CAN be done. What needs to change?

If anyone out there thinks building a turbine jet is "easier" than assembling a Pattern airplane that weighs 5Kg or less - then I have some beach-front property in Montana that I'd like to sell you! <LOL>

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

With all the dollar menu burgers I've been eating lately I personally hope they remove the weight restrictions. I'm OK now, but by the time I get to masters...[&:]