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Rudder on the Right Stick

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Old 12-08-2008, 02:37 PM
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baronbrian
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Default Rudder on the Right Stick

Hi All,

It's been a long time since I've posted but I had a question that I thought some of the posters here would like to discuss.

for the last 13 years I've only owned Mode II transmitters. That's the way I learned to fly, and it's the only way I set up my planes.

One of of my friends that competes in scale (and local pattern contests) flies mode I. About five years ago, we both had sport planes out and after doing some formation flying, we thought it would be fun to try each others planes. We both did o.k., you could tell during the flying how much we had to think about what you were doing. It took a couple minutes before I could reliably make a turn with out chopping the throttle. After doing some figure 8's with the rudder/elevator only I was starting to have fun. next I tried some point rolls. they came naturally, because the roll was on the right stick, and all the input needed to keep the heading/nose level came from the other. this kind of made sense to me, and after word I was thinking a lot about slow rolls, rolling circles, rolling loops, etc; any maneuver that needed lots of ele/rud for direction.

the problem was that although this was neat and fun to fly, I just couldn't get over not having the elevator on the right stick. it is where my mind needs it to be.

I was thinking about this recently and the light came on- switch aileron to the left and bring the rudder over to be with the elevator. ( i'm sure most would have thought of this sooner than 5 years, but I digress) I'm sure that this wouldn't be a fix for most pilots that aren't left stick inclined, but for us pattern pilots that probably use the throttle/rudder stick more than the right one, could this be something worth while?

So I guess what I'm looking for isn't so much as just opinions (no need for another "thumbs V. thumb&finger, JR V. Futaba, Ford V. Chevy" thread) but more as to if anyone has tried this for aerobatics, whether precision or in general. I did some research and found that like "mode III" is just a left hand setup for Mode II, this left hand setup for Mode I is officially "Mode IV". (left hand just being used to indicate a complete switch of the controls. I am right handed. I write Right, bat right, hold a hockey stick right, etc.)

Also, does this topic bring up any other novel ideas for transmitter controls in general?

Does anyone flying in warmer weather want to try this as a flight mode so they can switch in and out of this in flight?

Thanks all, look forward to the replys.

Brian



BTW, the correct answers are "thumbs" "JR" and "Ford"
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Old 12-08-2008, 02:51 PM
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beppeVRCS
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Well, if this can complicate matters a little bit, I found on an english publication dated aronud early '70s that their interpretation of Mode II was Rudder and Elevator on the Right Stick and Ailerons and Throttle on the Left Stick. Reason is very simple: they were still considering Rudder and Elevator as MAIN controls, and therefore it was the position of Rudder and Elevator that made the difference! Remember that in the Reed days all the directional controls were on the Right side of the Tx and all the elevation controls were on the Left side, with only two simultaneous signals possible.
I personally think that the best way is the way you feel more comfortable with. For Sport/Advanced flying, with a scarce use of Rudder, probably nothing can beat two hands to control two sticks; when an intense use of Rudder and Throttle comes into play, and both hands are involved all the time at the same time, then it's a mater of personal taste.
Ciao
Beppe
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Old 12-08-2008, 03:29 PM
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baronbrian
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Thanks for the reply.

I am just so curious about holding the ail over, and making a circle with the other stick. CW for a right roll, CCW for a left roll.

Or, maybe I have them all wrong and the rudder and elevators need to be kept on separate sides of the brain to keep from mixing them up...........

I wish it wasn't snowing out side. for me a simulator is no match for the real feel of a real plane.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:20 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

It's personal preference and more so what you learned to fly. There are guys that fly different modes that are very competitive. Years ago a lot of people flew single stick. I actually learned to fly on a single stick radio and switched to dual. As you move into the upper classes, I don't know that there is a control that gets used less or more. You eventually will be using all the flight controls for every maneuver. Even a slow roll incorporates all 4. A lot of top pilots will actually vary the throttle through the roll depending on wind conditions and such to maintain center.

Arch
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:30 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Brian.

The mode numbers get a little more confusing from radio manufacturer to radio manufacturer.
I fly ailerons throttle on the left stick, rudder elevator on the right stick. It has always been mode 3 to me. I fly Airtronics. I believe Futaba or Jr calls it Mode 4. Either way, I find rolls really easy, and it is one of my strong points usually. Rolling circles are fairly easy, as are lots of 3d stuff. What I do find a little difficult some times is keeping the throttle in the right spot when doing point rolls. I fly without a ratchet on my throttle. For myself, and as someone who has always flown this way, I love this mode.
I agree with Archie, I use all 4 pretty equally.

I'm an oddball though. Thumbs, fingers toes, Airtronics, Chevy... LOL

Chris
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:37 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

My first proportional system was a single stick so I ended up flying mode 2. Mode 1 made sense to me but I didn't want to start all over and I was flying fairly well. Then I heard about mode three, as I recall, from Ivan Kristensen, who was flying with the rudder and ailerons reversed as you describe. I said I can do that and went out with my good airplane and flew around fairly decently. However, if I got the least bit panicked I was instinctively trying to roll with the right stick. I said to myself it is too late to change. Now we use the rudder so much it is almost more important than aileron so you may be on to something. If you aren't too engrained in how you fly give it a try. But if you've been flying for a long time I wouldn't recommend changing. I can shoot free throws pretty well left handed, but I would never get to 90+ % like I can do right handed. My brain is trained.

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Old 12-08-2008, 08:22 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

yeah, it may be to hard to think about switching. after flying competition for 10 years, I may not find a better way, but I'm always trying to think of one:

Also, It may not be so hard- I don't own but can fly helis. if you were hovering a plane with the ele/rud on the right stick, it would behave just like a heli in hover- your ail would be on the left stick and would cause you to piroette(sp). throttle would control altitude, and the ele/rud would keep you upright.

I guess Airtronics would be like dodge, hopefully with better transmissions.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:09 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Hi Brian

Mark W must not have seen your thread ** he flies something different but can't remember what his setup is.

Off topic ** are you or anybody doing a contest at Anoka this year?

Good to hear from you!
Tom
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Messing around one day I tried it on a foamie. I could barely get it back on the ground! The plane had no rudder coupling so I got messed up and had to seriously concentrate to get the aileron input correct.

In theory it should make flying much easier to have the rudder and elevator on the same stick. The corrections for rolling maneuvers would be to just hold a set amount of aileron with the left hand and trace a circle with the elevator/rudder stick in the right hand. It makes rolling circles, harriers, etc much easier than trying to manage with both hands, but the muscle learning was just too hard to overcome. I then tried it on the simulator with good results, but just can't bring myself to erase 30+ years of muscle memory.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:11 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

I actually learned to fly 4 channel that way also,(throttle and ail. on left, rudder&elev. on right, Mode 3?) because it let me transition from 3 channel very easily. I switched to using normal Mode 2 about a year ago because I was flying many other peoples planes and vice versa. Took me more time to get used to left stick steering on the ground than it did using right stick ailerons in the air. But I think It probably took 6 months to be as comfortable overall as I was before I switched.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:21 AM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick


ORIGINAL: hugger-4641

I actually learned to fly 4 channel that way also,(throttle and ail. on left, rudder&elev. on right, Mode 3?)

Me Too! ! ! Works well for me and really does the business in the rolling circles. Been flying this way now for 35 years.


Davie.

BTW. can also fly mode 1 and 2 with concentration.

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Old 12-12-2008, 07:46 PM
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baronbrian
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Thanks all for the replies... maybe this is another thumb/ thumb plus finger debate. It's hard to tell which is better, plus which ever way you learned is probably the best for you because it's darn near impossible to relearn another way.

I may try this with a profile or something- both for rolls and for hovering- If I smoke it It won't be the Prophecy, thats for sure!

I'm just glad that this has been done and that it is working great for some people. You gotta think that by now everything has been tried, but you never know for sure until you ask.

Thanks for the reply Tom. I just don't know yet about about the pattern contest yet. I have to talk to the club.
I'm kinda stuck in Grand Forks at the moment, our business is only about 18 months old and is really starting to take off, so hobby time has been nil.
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Old 12-16-2008, 09:39 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

If you really want to try switching ail and rudder do it on a sim. No radio change is required and you can play with a high performance pattern type plane. I have thought about trying it but I agree as you get older the chance of making it work better for you is not so good. I bought one of those foam ducted fan jets for my son this summer. No rudder. tough to fly when I kept pushing the left stick to line it upand nothing happened. Even though I knew it had no rudder I kept doing it
Getting close to 50

Stu
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:01 AM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

I think there might be something to it if you're right handed, for me, being left handed, mode 1 is pretty hard to beat.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

I had flown Mode II pattern and pylon competitively for many years. When I got into IMAC Intermediate and had to start doing rolling circles, I sucked. I had always thought the Mode 1 guys had the right idea, but I didn't want to go buy a new radio to give it a try. So... 2 winters ago, I tried modes 1 and 4 on the sim. Could never get my brain around Mode 1, but Mode 4 worked! That winter I started with cheap planes and moved progressively up to my IMAC plane, making progress quickly. I never crashed more than a foamie, but did botch some cross-wind landings and damage some landing gears. I ended up moving up a class and flew a respectable, but not good, Advanced routine. This winter, I consider my reflexes totally retrained and I have much better control of my rolls, rudder, and corrections. It was worth it!

I can still fly mode 2 and not crash, but don't attempt landings with expensive planes.

Another concern that kept me from changing earlier was that nobody would be able to fly my planes if I got in trouble (such as a bee flying down my shirt or sunscreen in my eyes).
I discovered schemes of transmitter programming to change from 1 to 4 with the flick of a switch. Futaba 12mz is easy and JR 12x can be done with a more complicated scheme. (I'd be happy to share this info to anyone who is interested.)
If I want to fly someone else's plane, I plug in a buddy box on my mode. (Most less expensive Futaba transmitters can be switched to any of the 4 modes with a secret menu.)

Dan
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

Howdy

Setting out here in the Snow. I have been watching this thread.
I fly Mode 3 some times Called Mode 4. That is the primary Roll control on the left stick with throttle. Yaw and Pitch on the Right stick.

So the Primary flight controls are split.

The classic test was low inverted flight you can hold Pitch stick stable and rock the wings (roll) with out having a problem.

Plus side you can learn to fly faster this way. You can take long periods of time off and still fly ok. The fine motor controls of mixing when Primary flight controls are one stick can get lost with time.

I could not understand the need for a dual rates for years I would just move a stick needed roll rate. I built in Expo in the linkage.

The negative side. When you get into Pattern you will need to learn to mix with right hand Pitch and Yaw. This will take some time. But you can get it with some time.

Flown Pattern for 30 years. Had a lay off for 4 year s from Competition. Back flying in contests in 2005. I fly Masters.

Over the years it is fun to see the top pilots that fly spilt stick Vs the Crazy stick flyers.

Was fun to talk to Ivan years ago about flying the correct way, glad to see Chad flys the correct way.

The bottom line is what ever you can make work is good. Brain for you up north it may not be to bad. See you at the contest this spring.

Radios Today I fly the 12 X with a cross mix . My 10 has been moded by JR.

Have fun:



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Old 02-05-2009, 01:54 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

I've flown mode 1 for almost 25 years. I taught myself mode 2 about 8 years ago. I can also fly the other modes. Interestingly enough, when at fly-ins I regularly switch back and forth all day between mode 1 and 2 (flying my own birds and others). I still have to 'think' through everything on mode 2, but can still fly fine.

On a side note, I tried to learn to fly helicopters in mode 2. Even though I had never flown them before, I could not fly them successfully in mode 2. I tried however in mode 1 and was flying inverted on the third flight........

Flying both regularly, I've found that there are some specific maneuvers which are easier with one mode or the other, however neither holds an overall advantage. As was said above, fly what you know!
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:20 PM
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Default RE: Rudder on the Right Stick

How nice it is to hear about others in the same situation!!
I learnt to fly in Singapore, and "down" there it was Mode 1. When I came back to the snow(..), I kept on flying mode 1 because... well, why not! (Nobody can ever borrow my planes though... Oh well... [&:] )
In the military, I flew target drones, and sort of had to learn to fly Mode 2 due to the 99,99% flying this mode in Norway. We did not want to rebuild a system solely for me.
Since then, I'm flying both modes, teaching in mode 2, flying my own birds on Mode 1. I also find the rolling manouvers to be much easier with mode 1, but that might be because this is my "main mode".. I've tried competing in mode 2 (got the joy of borrowing a friends plane), and no rolls were "on the spot", rather like barrel-rolls. I felt like I accidently touched the elevator throughout the rolls!

But still, I don't know any other Norwegian pilot flying Mode 1, so I'm a bit "alone" with this theory here...
I've heard some Germans fly mode 1 (possibly mode 3/4) in pattern to improve rolling, but these are non-confirmed rumors.

My flight sim is set on mode 1, so I'm a bit concerned about my sons' future flying, if any... As for now, the biggest joy is the ratteling of the throttle stick...
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