2Sunny

EDIT: Showing my absolute ignorance I started with a title of "Gassers vs. Electric", and now have changed the title to "Glow vs. Electric".




So having been raised purely on electric I am mystified everytime I see or hear a gasser. Honestly, truely, and with no malice intended why don't gassers convert to electric? Am I missing out on a serious advantage? Has anyone laid out the pros and cons of both in a clear and concise fashion?

No flaming and no anger just honest discussion please . . .



Joe

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I just want to make sure you actually mean a gasoline engine, and not a glow engine. Most pattern planes (like almost all) run on electric motors or glow engines. Some 'gassers' may exist but they are rare.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

If you mean Electric vs. Glow...then its pretty simple. Up until the last 2 years or so, the electrics were limited in power and performance on larger aircraft. People made it work, but it was more expensive and was still in the learning stages. They are virtually identical now. You will hear some argue both ways, but they both have advantages.

Electrics have no vibration and the costs are coming down. The weight of the plane is identical through the entire flight. However there is still a learning curve and if you do "puff" a pack..you are out quite a bit. There is no smoke trail, but I'm not sure that is a big deal either way. And I don't want to hear the arguments that electrics are just plug and play..there is still a learning curve involved. Also, I don't know that anyone TRULY knows how long a pack will last. I know guys that have used them for multiple years, but I have heard from several of the "top" electric flyers and they all say they'd never run a pack more than a year. You really have to own 3-4 sets of packs to go out and just be able to practice without waiting around.

Glow motors have been around forever and people know how to run them. Even if you totally burn up a glow motor, you are probably going to spend less than the cost of a set of packs. Yes, you have fuel costs and the prices are going up so the costs are virtually equal now. I personally run glow as I know the setup, and I like fact of being able to fly longer. I can get through 2 masters sequences on a 20oz tank with my CDI setup. I know of guys getting through 2 FAI sequences, but I doubt you will find anyone getting through 2 masters sequences on a pack. I can comfortably go to the field and fly 3 flights in an hour and go back home when I fly alone. To do the same thing, you would have to have 3 sets of packs with electric. I also like the smell of glow fuel. I grew up on glow and still prefer it. I'm also setup for it and don't want to start over with motors, packs, chargers and such.

From a cost stand point, the OS 1.60 with 15% nitro setup is hard to beat. It doesn't have quite the power of the top electric and YS setups, but it will get you through Masters. I know you will see guys argue it is TRULY a competitive setup, but i would be willing to bet, there wont be anyone in the top at the worlds or in the finals of FAI at the NATS later this month with that setup. The top guys in the world can fly any setup they want, and you wont find any running that setup. It does have its limitations compared to the top electric or YS setups.

The true "gas" setups still have a ways to go in the smaller setups. There are some guys playing with some setups, but they are still very early in the learning stages as they just don't produce the power in the same displacement. They are hard to be for 50cc and above as they produce good power and are cost effective, but in the 2 meter pattern world they are still evolving.

I have seen some of the newer electric setups and they have TONS of power, but they are still limited to around 8-9 minutes of actual flight time.

It is personal preference. They are both competitive and they both work. QQ won the last worlds with a YS, but has switched to electric. However, none of the Japanese or CPLR have made the jump to electric and if they truly thought they were at a disadvantage I am sure they would. The top 10 in the world could fly either and be just as competitive.

I think as electrics keep evolving over the next 5 - 10 years eventually the costs and such will make it hard to resist, but even though it has gotten better, it is still not quite there yet.

Just my .02

Arch

JCINTEXAS

I love the smell of glow engine exhaust fumes in the morning.
The smell, you know that nitro and castor smell...
It smells like........Victory!

(With appologies to Lt. Colonel Bill Kilgore)

FASST FLIER

tIANci

Generally for flying I now lean towards EP. Why? Cleaner, planes last longer, you can have tons of power without the weight penalty (compared with GP that is). With EP you can configure what sort of power & prop options you like (just adjust the gear ratios, number of cells, motor KV). However, the downside is ... the initial investment is higher than glow dues to the batteries and chargers. Like what RCPATTERN says, as a newbie you may bloat your pack and that is a painful experience, its like pouring glow fuel down the drain. At the moment with HobbyCity packs that are reliable, the cost is just dropping. I am using the Rhino 20C 5S 4,900 and they cost $70 each, only $70 now. Its cheap for sure.

However, speaking to some good F3A flyers its really divided, some love GP stating the power curve the feel etc etc ... some say EP saying the same things too. to each their own I guess. For me, its EP ...

2Sunny

Smell . . . now that's something I can latch onto. Plus sound, that I get but adding my minimal novice 2 cents as a Sportsman I would say my pros for electric are:

1) No idle adjustment.

2) No clean up.

3) Quiet.

4) Instant on; instant off.

5) No smell.

6) Ease of changing power systems.

7) No pulling glow plugs from a 7000 RPM motor.

8) No need for a starter.

9) Ease of installation. No pipes, plumbing, or reinforced firewalls.

10) No change in CG.

11) Zippy Rhino packs or TrueRC packs are now REALLY cheap.

12) Neu, Pletty, AXI, and Hacker have all broken the code and come up with numerous options.



And that's all I can think of at the moment.

ArchNemesis

I'll assume you mean glow...

I think it has more to do with legacy. I've been flying glow for 31 years. I have all the support equipment for glow (engines, props, parts, fuel pumps, starters, glow drivers, exhaust systems, couplers, engine maintenance tools (bearing pullers, etc) and so on) and I know how to make them work...well, most of the time. It's a significant investment, not to mention I have at least 20+ glow planes from over the years. Glow won't go away for me for a long time. And...it works. I fly 14 min per flight...twice through my pattern (or one P and one F as is usually the case). That's tough to do with electric, and trust me, I need the practice.

All that said, if I was starting new...I'd go electric. But the cost to convert is high. New airplanes, new motors, new support equipment (chargers, transformers, generator, etc) and a reasonable learning curve. Not to mention that I've got 84 gallons of 30% in my garage.

I think straight cost per flight is about equal at this point.

I will likely eventually make the plunge, but for now I'm all glow.

JCINTEXAS

Quote: "I've got 84 gallons of 30% in my garage."
___________________________________________

84 gallons?
84 GALLONS???
Holy Smoke.....(sure hope not)

tIANci

Arch ... wanna try a small F3A EP plane first?

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

I prefere glow for the propulsion of the plane and electric for the servo's to move the "doors". Why?

It seems me to be too complicated all these glow engines in the servo's.
Maybe you even have to use two glow engines with "clutches" in each servo because it is nearly impossible the reverse the direction of rotation.
Also all the smoke in the fuselage when there is a bad exhaust connection on one of the servo's.
Other point is, each servo his own fueltank ore "cline" controllers , when you mount the servo's in wing and tail?

I normally write my posts in the "Classic Pattern Flying", and of course there it is "No point of dicussion!"
All that modern stuff, I become tired of it, so, do not change, let's do it the old way.


Joe, because you did ask :"No flaming and no anger just honest discussion please . . . ".
There rest only one reason for me, I like internal combustion engines, and especially the "Classic Pattern Flying".
Look at the picture! 30 years old ENYA 60 4C engine in a plane, basicly designed in 1960 I fly with, how to convert that to electrical?



Cees, Taurus Flyer

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Electric is really appealing to me, however I just can't do the startup costs right now. For me, I have an easier time trying to afford a couple of cases of fuel at a time. That being said, trying to get to the store often enough to support my habit (uh, I mean hobby) is a bit of an effort, although it seems to be working out OK.

Glow engines are really cool (especially YS) and I can't imagine ever not having one again. They have their problems but I like them enough that I'd rather have a backup than give up on them.

tIANci

Taurus ... you and one of my pals can start a club ... he says batts are for torchlights only. Hehehehehee ...

garfield ... yeah the start up for anything above 40 sized is painful ... 10S very very painful.

Taurus Flyer

2Sunny,

Only the first point to start and keep it simple.
Do you remember you did start the thread : Downline vs. Upline speed?
This was the first post you did receive.

The date of that answer was: 6/6/2009!
Did you forget this already? (Did you forget to response?)
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_88...tm.htm#8829550

I do use airspeed control/cruise control and a data logger in my Taurus.
The trottle servo in the plane is controlled for that by the airspeedcontroller, so need no any adjustment. With my "trottle stick" I adjust setpoint speed.

For me it isn’t important how to generate speed or brake-power, electrical of glow, only how to keep the airspeed of the plane constant, on the value I want, because that is most important to fly pattern and model airplanes also in "bad weather conditions". Downline vs. Upline isn't a problem for me either, I only hear the engine does makes some more RPM Upline so it cost some more money (Dutch!).

Picture of the Taurus, white circle the ::Prandtl tube of the airspeed control.
Second picture detail of the Prandtl tube.

To have a powerfull linear output of the glowengine, also in any position of the plane and on any moment, I use two extra fuelpressure controllers one on the carb and one on the tank, so the output is the same as electric, only not limited in time.

Cees

randy10926

My Feedback: (19)

Was glow and liked it. Mainly because I had been flying glow for many years. Converting to electric because I am no longer able to get down to start the thing. I am converting because I am tooooo olde to get down and play with glow engines any more per doctors orders.

BUT I am keeping some 15% around to put a drop under my nose before I start flying for the day.

Taurus Flyer

Randy109,

Electric propulsion we cannot compare and I know what you mean.
It's funny but how about a sound generator in the plane so we not only smel the fuel put also hear the engine.
And of course the selectionswitch on the transmitter Webra - OS Max - OPS.
For a lot of the modelers the electrical propulsion is a good solution and has a lot of possibilities, fitting with your wallet.

Cees

edit: O sorry: VECO - K & B

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I won't get into an argument about which is better but I will say electric power has
put the fun back into flying for me. It's easier, quieter, cleaner, no vibration, no starters
or starter batteries, glow plugs etc, etc. Electric power obviously is not trouble free, you can
always have a controller, motor, or battery failure but if you listen to others who have been
successful with e-power you will keep your problems to a minimum. Use what works for other
people. With the price of batteries coming down it's easier to have enough sets to get enough
flying time. I was lucky, I had Earl Haury, Nat Penton, Eddie Batchelor and a few others around
to give me advice as to what worked for them so my first electric airplane was, and still is a
success. I sold all my glow equipment, motors etc and all my airplanes are now electric and I
don't want to change back.

tommy s

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Starter for glow = Generator or one big battery for charging

Fuel and fuel pump = Batteries

Glow plugs and Glow driver= Charger

Throttle servo = ESC

Exhaust system = well nothing

YS/OS= That spark making thingy

Lean run = Puffed battery

Paper towels and Cleaner = well again, nothing

Flame out = Puffed battery

Fuel soaked air frame= not gonna happen

No more cracked chin cowls from a backfire [:@]= priceless

Wife not nagging about the fuel smell in the house = Priceless

Seems I need to start looking for an electric plane.

AAbdu

My Feedback: (18)

For me, I LOVE pattern planes. They are the most beautiful things flying if you ask me. It hasn't been a problem for me of late, but a lot of guys get a lot of flights on their pattern planes, it just breaks my heart to see what the vibration and prolonged exposure to oil does to a pattern plane. Of course Hyde mounts and nose rings have decreased the damage, but a hard kicking YS DZ can still do some serious carnage to an airframe. Not having to clean oil out of my rudder hinge line is nice added benefit.

I love that the low vibration no oil electrics will keep your hard work looking better longer. Now I just need to eliminate the damage that the ground does to my airframes

The cost though an issue is not huge as we are already spending way too much for our "toys". To see guys paying what they do for Oxai planes and 14MZs it is only a little more to convert to electric. As it turned out, it was just a good time for me to make the switch as I didn't have nearly as much glow equipment as some of the other guys on RCU. It would have been a much harder decision if I had a lot of YS equipment around.

Anthony

tIANci

Mastertech ... care to join the Dark Side? May we assist you?

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Planning on it.

I just hope I find the time to practice and get to some contests this fall. The spring has been a disaster for me.

Taurus Flyer

AAbdu and others,

Second point of my post 13 I read: No clean up!

You better do.

After a day of flying I have to remove the grass of the LE of the wing (lawn mower), clean the wheels etc.
For that I always clean the whole plane with soap and check for “cracks”, 10 minutes work!

During this activity I discover the details to repair and keep the quality of the plane “on level”.
I also check frequent the radio battery’s!!

Picture, my Taurus after overhauling these weeks after a period of nearly 400 flights during the last 5 years.
The airframe of the plane doesn’t have to be the problem with the right construction, engine power level and maintenance.
The only thing you need is a little bit of luck on wrong moments.

Cees

jim woodward

Electric or Glow - its a R/C lifestyle question. For my dollar and time, glow and 4-cyce is better. I get more practice time on this setup. Instead of stating the differences, I'll state the similarities:

1. You need spare components on hand to compete with either
2. Electric is just as affected by the weather as glow - consider a humid or windy day - E-power just uses more battery (and you may run out!)
3. Small deviations in electric flight-to-flight changes affects throttle and power consistency to the same or greater affect as deviations you would see with a glow setup. Electric is not as "consistent" as one may think it is when you consider battery temps upon startup, age/time on system.
4. I'll take the increased airplane maintenace of a glow plane over the perpetual need to charge lipo batteries any day of the week. Large Lipos scare me. I'm OK with having glow fuel in the garage as I do not need to "watch" it while it sits in the box. I'm not OK with charging large lipo packs and not sitting there and watching them or being close by.
5. In my brush with electric, I spent more time in the charge-battery-cycle of preparation, than I ever did on airplane maintence.
Thanks,
Jim

1bwana1

For me, electric makes the most sense for my pattern planes. I started in RC flying electrics, I have only been flying a few years. There is a great electric only field that is only a couple of miles from my house, and right between my home and office. So, it was a natural progression as my flying interests developed. I look at the costs of flying across my entire hanger of planes. I have standardized on 5 cell battery setups. A single 5 cell for my smaller electrics, and two 5 cells in series for a 10 cell setup in my larger electrics. The costs of my collection of 14 of these batteries, and an optimized charging setup is shared between my fleet, so is very affordable. However, for my giant scale 30% to 40% IMAC planes, gas makes more sense to me. Electrics are just not there yet.

As far as performance, I find that my electrics perform very well. Probably better than what I see in the middle range of glow motors, and on par with the high end glow motors. At my last pattern contest the F3A, Masters, and Advanced classes were all won with electric powered planes. So, electric is certainly not a handicap at this point. Both electric and glow can be set up to work equally well by someone who understands the respective technologies.

Looking toward the future, it seems to me that the big advances are being made with electric technology. There are new batteries that are currently making the transition from the research stage, to the production stage, that will provide 10 times the capacity for the same weight. This means that in a few years, electric should offer at least the same flight times, more power, and at a lighter weight than glow. Hey, there are billions being poured into electric power research by both government, and industry. If they have their way, we may all be driving electric cars, and flying electric models in the future. LOL!

turbo.gst

My Feedback: (8)

I fly both. I still prefer glo. It seems that my bigger stuff is all glo. When I am going to spend a day at the field, I take glo. I use electric to grab a quick flight here and there. I also don't have to have three or four battery packs to fly this way. The electric is really good for the small ones.

I am currently trying a few larger electrics to see how I like them. The cost of electrics is coming down everyday. I can see being able to use both with very little conflict.

turbo

Jon Wold

Cost aside, electrics make the most sense in pattern. There are benefits to glow but it requires a bit more effort, the noise issue, soft mounts, pipes, vibrations etc. But that is part of what draws me to it. Having flown glow for so many years I have to repeat what people say that I cannot imagine not having one and the extreme satisfaction of being able to make them run right. And aaaah, the smoke, smell and noise. Love it, just love it! But I'm the first to admit that if I really wanted to get somewhere and get a lot of hassle-free practice and start climbing the scoreboards I should get electric. But I won't any time soon because glow engines are a hobby in it's own right. Many people feel that way about electrics and have always enjoyed soldering, measuring currents etc. Me, I can solder just fine but I'd rather be filing away at some piece of metal.