grotto2

My Feedback: (2)

But F3a isn't IMAC. My experience has been that it seems FAI issues a description first and maybe a bit later a diagram (we're talking the beginning of the cycle). Frequently we get these through third party sources, too. I think the aresti diagram is meant to clarify the description, not override it.

I see what you're saying, though about IMAC if you are issued only a diagram. It sounds like you maybe don't get options like the snap P/N on an avalanche. Is that true?

And in your example of opposite snaps, I must admit to never having seen the diagram disagree with the description on the rolls reversing L/R. But I have seen opposite snap rolls not described as P/N but appear to be specified in the aresti. I don't believe it. By the same token, if the aresti showed a left point roll followed by a right point roll I wouldn't feel obligated to do it that way if not specified by the description as anything but reversing.

Healthy discussion here, Jeff. Thanks.

-Ron

Jeff Boyd 2

Re: 1 1/2 spin, 1/2 roll opposite (as per Aresti) . . The description didn't actually disagree, just didn't fully explain / describe it.

Hey . . found this. Refer to Fig.8 for explanation. Interesting . . http://www.scaleaeros.com.au/Downloa...ade-Simple.pdf

Cheers, JB

Jeff Boyd 2

Ron, I believe if you had an option of how to perform the manouevre, the Arresti diagram would show the option(s) bracketed off to one side in the diagram. e.g. the snaps in P09 do not mention positive OR negative in the "description", however the Arresti diagram clearly indicates it can be flown positive OR negative (bracketed to one side).

Cheers, JB

grotto2

My Feedback: (2)

Right you are, Jeff. Now that I review the 2008 FAI document it's apparent there are numerous examples of such options. One of the situations I encountered was in late 2007, though, and documentation was questionable. We tend to like to get the jump on the new patterns here and fly them in contests as soon as we think we know what they are.

Rendegade

Okay gents, go easy on me with this one.

I'm having a little trouble with the old figure M, now if I read what I've been given, it states that the half loop with an integrated half roll, I assume to mean that at the start of the half loop, I being the half roll as well, and come through the bottom apex at knife edge and finish the roll as I finish the loop.

I've been spending some time during the week on a simulator to get my head around the schedule and it's pretty difficult to get around the bottom of the figure M in this fashion.

Am I doing it right or am I making the proverbial dogs breakfast of it?

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

You're doing it correct... just keep on practicing it

Rendegade

JAs, cheers for the help. I guess my biggest problem is running out of lift sideways! I end up dropping very low once I get to the knife edge portion of the maneuvre and overflying the radius.

I'm thinking I need to power up sooner to get the side area working, that said I'm still flying a long and low old school type, maybe it's time to upgrade...

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

Yes, power should be added as you start the loop/roll. Maybe it's time for some fins and a T on the old bird. I've only flown P/F with my Eon so it's not the best plane to be doing practice with (yet), but it keeps on trucking. It's more of a power lag issue than anything else.

DaveL322

Ren,

Even with some of the newer 2M birds, adding power as the 1/2 loop and 1/2 roll are initiated helps......I actually reduce throttle after establishing the upline of the 2nd vertical.

Regards,

Dave

Rendegade

Okay guys, I'll try going in with power earlier, and see how that goes.

And maybe, just maybe, the old girl may end up bristling with fins all over!

Ooh, that reminds me, time for another thread.....

Jeff Boyd 2

Hi Renegade . .

You're flying it on a sim, right ? Just dial the model weight down to about 1/2 a pound . . should 'float' through the KE

Here's P-11 on a sim . . the integrated roll starts WAY late, and finishes early . . but you get the idea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY68PwjLyD0

OR . . Hatta flying P-11 with a Seba Wind S Pro, although, don't think he has many flights with it . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w-qOmxiJcA&feature=fvw

Cheers, JB

Rendegade

JB, the first one is the way I've been getting around it, condensing the roll part of the maneuvre to "cheat" and not need so much KE time, but I figure hatta's way is the correct way.

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

Hatta's is correct. The Sim version would have a pretty big downgrade. The roll started more than 30 degrees late and ended about 30 degrees early. I'd say that would be a 4 point downgrade (not counting the downgrade for the flat portion at the bottom when the roll is occurring), correct? The roll needs to start as soon as the nose begins to pitch for the loop segment and the roll ends as the loop segment ends.

ytell

Hi Jeff,

Can you please provide a few details on the sim you're using (1st vid) and its setup.

Thanks in advance

Yoav

Jeff Boyd 2

Yoav . . It's not my Sim, and it's not me flying. I actually have "Reflex XTR" and downloaded a ZN Line Integral for practice, if it's any interest.

You would know my Figure 'M' . . it has a 1/2 snap at the bottom of the 1/2 loop

Cheers, JB

ytell

Is this Reflex XTR on the first video?

I'm just curios since it looks so real, especially with its realistic background. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out if it's real or not.

Thanks again

Yoav

amram

In the sporting code it is specifically say: “A Half outside loop with a fully-integrated half roll"
So Roll need to be integrated through the entire half loop 180 degrees.
If I am the judge I would score sever downgrade to such execution as demonstrated on the sim.

Think about the Rolling Circle on the F11 schedule. Four opposite rolls needs to be integrated inside the circle, each roll inside a quarter of the circle.
It has to be integrated throughout the entire quarter of the circle. Try not to do it in WC and you get a cold shower form the judges line....

Amram

Jeff Boyd 2

No it's not Reflex. I think it's Realflight G4 ??

Reflex looks real too. It uses actual photographs of real fields as the panorama. Uses real pics of planes too.

This give a bit of an indication of how the Reflex looks . . Of course, you can select from many different scenery and models . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWdt-dvaSPA&feature=fvw

Cheers, JB

Magne

Quarter loop
3/4 pt. roll
stall turn
1/4 roll
half loop/half roll
1/4 roll
stall turn
3/4 roll
quarter loop.

The half loop/half roll bit was just a very small part of all that.
Plenty of other places to loose points too.
How quickly can you count from 10 to zero?

Yeah....

Magne []

amram

Dear Magne
I agree with you. This M maneuver is to me the most tricky maneuver in the P11. If I am happen to manage it well, with the rest I will be fine.
Believe me I can count 10 to 0 very quickly... As quickly as the Pilots sobbing will be heard after seeing my scorrings.... :-)
Amram

matt13

Ok, I have been doing a bit of practice on the figure M, I fly in the "expert" class in Australia, which means no tricky half roll in the centre
However, at my skill level, and the fact that I have so far not mastered cross wind corrects that well, the M is giving me trouble with the wind blowing in towards me. i know the answer is more practice, but I find that once the model slows right down for the stall turn, I'm drifting in badly, if I lay off correction, the nose of the model pointing forwards into the wind, the piviot of the stall turn requires lots of down elevator to reverse the drift lay off, and it just looks all wrong! I like the challange of this manoeuvre, but the wind corrections are frustating, any extra advice? Is there a youtube of this maneuvre yet? Matt[&o]

Jeff Boyd 2

Hi Matt . .

The links in the 'quote' below are for the full P11, but the "M" is first, so you won't have to wait long

Cheers, JB

matt13

Thanks Jeff,
I have stopped flying the old schedule now as I will be away for the State Champ's again [:@], so I have been getting out late in the evening a few times a week with the Angle 50. Mostly just flying the M over and over, some good ones, but they are the minority at the moment. I will keep at it, like the new schedule though Matt

amram

Hi Matt,
Maybe it will help you to do what I doing.
I am using my son who is top F3A Judge. He takes the car and positioning himself on the 150m line well out of the 60 degrees outside the flying box. Now he can see my model flying away from him and towards him on the 150m flying line. We keep the mobile phone open while I fly I use a earphone and He gives me drifting information and corrections to keep the model on the 150 line. It will also help on performing the integrated half roll inside the half loop. I have not yet done it with him on the M and P11 but we used practice this way several times on the F09 and I found it very helpful.
Good luck
Amram

Thinn

Was out for the first time in months today and tried the P-11 for the first time using my Ys170-powered Oxalys..
...

What the h....
..

My first thoughts;
- I should have tested the program using my sim WAY many times prior to attemting this..
- The M got far too streched out giving me no space at all for the next manouvre
- I kept pushing wrong rudder throughout the program, someting that gave the whole experience sort of a "twist", specially in those low manouvers!

I MIGHT have to practice a bit more.

Thank you Henning for not laughing yor head off (He probably did on the way home instead!)