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  1. #1
    MTK's Avatar
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    SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Okay Pattern afficionados, here's the real deal. Ed Alt and I visited Todd Syssa at his shop Saturday to do some bench running of the engine. John Pavlick showed up later also.

    Todd and his dad Al worked with us all day to run several pattern sized props as follows: 17x12 std blade, 18.1x10 std blade, 17x10 std blade, 15.75x11 3 bld, 19.1x11 std blade. We also ran Todd's standard Vess woodie 18x6 for comparison.

    All of the pattern props were turned with authority significantly better than the 140RX can turn the same props. The engine was brand new out of the box so we were breaking it in at the same time as we ran these props. After a couple gallons, we'd expect another 100-200 rpm out of the top end. I brought the ES 40G pipe, which is intended to be used on up to a 40 cc gasoline engine. This pipe is highly recommended....the difference between it and a regular glow pipe is considerable although I've run a glow pipe on ZDZ40 with good results. The glow set-up gets very long, longer than our pattern models can accommodate in most cases. The gas pipe simply drops in place and it's tuned length is practically preset. The header was a standard Macs for an OS140RX, 2" rise, full length. The main baffle on the gas pipes is 27 1/8" straight line to the spark plug.

    The day was cool, around 52F, sunny, a little breezy, with fairly high barometric pressure, with RH probably around 40%. The fuel was regular 87 octane gasoline mixed with Amsoil pro at around 80:1 mix ratio (1 pouch of oil per gallon)

    Ed is compiling the data for a KFactor article. Let me tell you however that the engine ran stronger than the RX's and Webra 145's we've been running, across the board. Even the 19.1x11 was turned but that prop is too much load.

    For the sport fliers, the engine made scary power with the 18x6 Vess prop. The boost on the pipe was about 1000 RPM over the stock muffler; about 9300-9400 rpm and 26 pounds of thrust. These were the strongest numbers we got which speak to the engine's potential. Pattern props would unload in the air to produce similar thrust. You could easily tell the engine was very happy running at this rpm

    The sound of the engine on the gas pipe is very similar to a standard glow engine on pipe. We measured around 89 dBA at around 10 feet. An enclosed set-up as we normally run would produce lower noise

    Todd and Al Syssa are great guys and are modelers just like us. It looks to me that Todd would support his products better than we normally see in this hobby. They are not in Italy, China, Check Republic or Japan. Recently for example, I bought the Mintor 37 cc gas engine to take a closer look. The engine will not work in pattern applications because the carb is located in a goofy manner protruding from the crankcase at an od angle. I tried for two weeks to send the thing back at a reasonable re-stocking fee and only managed to talk those guys down to 35$, down from 100$. That's not service

    Back to the Syssa engine. This is an excellent way to go for models that are no more than about 10 3/4 lbs. Output is better than an RX or webra 145 or YS 140/160. The engine is built to last. Todd shared some of his design philosophy and I will tell you as an engineer myself for 30+ years, Todd has thought through many sticky issues in such an engine. Oh one other thing....we designed a way to build in an added support for the nose ring that would not interfere with the Hall sensor. So this will be offered as an accessory soon. Weightwise, the engine is on par with the 2 strokes mentioned, plus around 4ozs for the ignition module.

    A great way to spend a Saturday afternoon. We learned an awful lot. One last thing...the engine was extremely smooth running through all rpm. We did not detect any resonance nodes but we still would soft mount these engine

    Thank you Todd and Al Syssa for a great session

    Matt Kebabjian
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  2. #2

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Here's us outside with the 2005 Dodge test stand.
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    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    That sure looks like an 18.1x10 with the L9 ES pipe.

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Matt,

    Very interesting. I would like to read the flying report when ready. What is the weight of the engine including ignition system?

    Vicente "Vince" Bortone
    Vicente \"Vince\" Bortone

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    I'm also curious to know how fast you got that Caravan.
    After 5PM slip brains through slot in door.

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Vince, IIRC it is 40.2 oz including standoffs (mount), ignition, all hardware, and muffler. Bare engine with muffler is 33 oz. Remove the muffler from the front of the plane and exchange it for a pipe mounted mid-ship, and cut the fuel tank down to 10 or 12 oz, and this just might be a workable solution as the wet-weight will be similar to a nitro-fueled plane. Overall price is going to be similar to a YS or an OS 1.40 with pipe, and fuel costs will be cut by ~80%. (Probably will cost less than a 1.70, but the power may not be on that level)

    The website claims 96 db on the stock "Pitts" muffler, or 91 db with "tone inserts" which cost 200-250 rpm on the top. On a carbon pipe (and considering the rear-mount carburetor) the sound level should be acceptable.

    Great work testing this Matt. I look forward to the K-Factor article. I plan to buy the engine next summer.

    One last thing. Todd Syssa has stated on another forum that he is open to cutting cylinders with custom timing. It may be possible to wring a fair amount more power from the engine with a bump in the timing to match a pipe (this may or may not be necessary, but is interesting nonetheless and shows a commitment to customer support).

    p.s. I have absolutely no commercial interest in this engine or company, I am just very supportive of small businesses in our hobby, particularly those who manufacture their own wares in-house.

  7. #7
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: vbortone

    Matt,

    Very interesting. I would like to read the flying report when ready. What is the weight of the engine including ignition system?

    Vicente ''Vince'' Bortone
    Vince,

    Engine weight alone, including the plug, prop washer and nut, plus the 2 5mm header bolts, is 32.2 ozs. The ignition sensor is factory mounted. Engine typically comes with a stock rear mounted muffler and I don't have that weight.

    Stand offs weigh about 1.0 to 1.6 oz depending on length. Ignition is 3.6 ozs. The engine ignition will need a 3.5 to 6.0 V source plus a switch, or other means of power supply

    Compares reasonably to the Webra 145 AR which comes in at 28.8 ozs, ready for header.

    Compares reasonably to the OS160, which comes in at 32.9 ozs. I guess I never weighed the stock muffler and adapter for the 160 before....a wopping 12 ozs for those who are interested. Pipes and headers beat that weight by a wide margin.

    Flying report will have to wait a bit. Ed has a test bed he can use but I don't have anything ready yet. If Ed gets his in the air before the snow flies, I'm sure you will read it in the KFactor

    regards

    Matt
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Matt,

    Please keep us informed. I would like to see your flying report.

    Thanks,

    VB
    Vicente \"Vince\" Bortone

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Matt, et al, I'm just thinking aloud here... Todd seems willing to make some modifications to this engine in order to maximize it's performance (for our use in pattern applications anyway...SAP 180-F3A???). I've only seen photos but at first glance, I'd like to ask if it's feasible to do a bit more machining around the crankcase and possibily loose an ounce or two. I think that if he could incorporate some threaded tabs near the front for nose ring install, cool. Lastly, since the liner is chromed (is it Nikasil or some other process?). porting jobs could get a bit hairy so it would be cool if the engines could be ported at the factory to maximize power when using a pipe. Wouldn't hurt to bump up the compression just a bit to pick up some low-end (but only up to say a 91 octane level). Are these engines being run on gas that includes the 10% ethanol mixed in that many cities mandate?

  10. #10
    MTK's Avatar
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: MarkGrabowski

    Matt, et al, I'm just thinking aloud here... Todd seems willing to make some modifications to this engine in order to maximize it's performance (for our use in pattern applications anyway...SAP 180-F3A???). I've only seen photos but at first glance, I'd like to ask if it's feasible to do a bit more machining around the crankcase and possibily loose an ounce or two. I think that if he could incorporate some threaded tabs near the front for nose ring install, cool. Lastly, since the liner is chromed (is it Nikasil or some other process?). porting jobs could get a bit hairy so it would be cool if the engines could be ported at the factory to maximize power when using a pipe. Wouldn't hurt to bump up the compression just a bit to pick up some low-end (but only up to say a 91 octane level). Are these engines being run on gas that includes the 10% ethanol mixed in that many cities mandate?
    Mark,

    Engines don't have liners as do glow engines. It's aluminum alloy casting that does have some extra material for additional bore. That's the easy part. I don't recall discussing with Tod what the plating is. Maybe Ed did and could chime in. A small amount of weight saving could be had by machining the fins and such on the outside, however, the current finish aids heat dissipation. Smooth finish will not help here. It would make the engine very pretty, almost too pretty considering what the rest looks like, but it would probably hurt heat removal. It's a positive compromise and believe me Todd has thought of that. Designing a new piston diameter the fit the new bore is a small obstacle

    The major obstacle is in stroking the engine which requires new crankcase, rod and shaft. More specifically, the case would require new programming to CNC the new dimensions. But as we discussed with Todd, we believe that some, perhaps many Pattern folks would not even blink an eye if the cost jumped to 500$ or more to get the reliability of gas power. That's the main reason I am looking at gas, the reliability they seem to have compared to glow. Power wise I believe the engine has the necessary beans. If we stroked it just a little, maybe 3mm, and bored it maybe another 1 mm, we'd pick up displacement which wouldn't hurt anything

    I've been very successful with my Webras. But even with that, there are features or characteristics I don't like such as downline brakes. Gas will give these in spades and also give the year after year with no maintenance what so ever that YS 4 strokes and all the 2 strokes simply can't compete with.

    Ed knows several former IMAC' ers that are ready to make the move to pattern but can't work with glow and can't stand electric. I think this is an excellent alternative. I've just purchased some woodies in the size this engine should turn and I will report in this forum. I found a test bed I am setting up also Vince, so if the weather holds over the next couple weeks, I should have a report for ya

    Matt
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Thanks for the update, Matt. Taking a look at boring/stroking this motor might yield some extra power there. BTW, what are the bore & stroke dimensions currently? If the crank is a two-piece design with separate crank pin, getting it stroked shouldn't require anything other than a 0.5mm offset crank pin...

  12. #12
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: MarkGrabowski

    Thanks for the update, Matt. Taking a look at boring/stroking this motor might yield some extra power there. BTW, what are the bore & stroke dimensions currently? If the crank is a two-piece design with separate crank pin, getting it stroked shouldn't require anything other than a 0.5mm offset crank pin...
    The engine is oversquare and IF I remember correctly, it has a 36mm bore and 30 mm stroke. If that's right, then it's a 30.5 cc engine. Two things....the oversquare allows the engine to make its more HP at higher revs. One of the reasons why we saw as much jump in trhust when turning the 18x6 Vess woodie. The rpm jump was about 1000 over stock muffler. Second the relatively short stroke means reduced or damped vibration at all rpm, which is exactly what we saw.

    Anyway, I am outfitting a test bed and hope to have it flying weekend b4 TG so if weather holds I can get a few flights on it. I'll post a couple photos soon

    Matt
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    With that over-bore design the engine would appear to be a good candiate for a porting job that maximizes the tuned pipe...

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    I"m very interesting in what you come up with matt.

    I've been flying a MVVS 160 ifs for some time (until I broke a wing bolt and pile drove it through a tree). I had made comments that a high capacity rear exhaust rear induction enigne would be more effective as a pattern powerplant and it seems Todd's done almost just that.


    I have to ask though, is it reed or rotor induction?


    Very interesting. Subscribed.
    Go knife edge your cub!

  15. #15
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: Rendegade

    I''m very interesting in what you come up with matt.

    I've been flying a MVVS 160 ifs for some time (until I broke a wing bolt and pile drove it through a tree). I had made comments that a high capacity rear exhaust rear induction enigne would be more effective as a pattern powerplant and it seems Todd's done almost just that.


    I have to ask though, is it reed or rotor induction?


    Very interesting. Subscribed.
    It's reed induction just like the old Cox engines. Reed induction has an upper rpm limit, no question about that. Beyond a certain rpm, reeds float. The material Todd uses has been carefully researched and is well engineered to allow excellent response to at least 14K rpm. Todd runs the engine on a racing model which turns around that in the air.

    In pattern we wouldn't run anywhere near that kind of rpm. We don't want anything higher than about 8500 or so since it gets noisy quickly.

    For all pattern people interested in this engine, please send an email to Todd Syssa. If he gets encouraged enough he will likely start working on a pattern version. He knows what we want....a little longer stroke and about 20 degrees lower exhaust duration. Both are straight forward but not trivial to actually do. The current 180 was in prototype state for about 2 years before he got the characteristics this engine displays. After all, he is in business to make money, not just to satisfy his curiosity. The more we show interest, the more he would consider it. And he gets the fact that our market is a fraction of the sport market

    BTW, I was impressed with the engine's starting....it seemed like he didn't flip the prop as much as he led it to a bump, then gently carried the prop through compression with a rubber stick; no kickback and no bite and it was fairly cold the day we were there.

    MattK
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Hi MTK!
    Have not had a chance to test the wings we have been discussed, but it will come!
    Very interesting the Syssa engine. Is it possible that this engine can perform equally with any pattern engine despite it run on gas and not on alcohol mix. This without tuning it hard with pipes and GP porting etc. It dosent matter if the CC is larger than current Pattern engines if it is light enough to fit within the current weight rules and noise and is equally powerful. The fuel cost here in Norway will be approx 1/5 of alcohol mix.

    Best wishes for your testing

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Ed is compiling the data for a KFactor article. Let me tell you however that the engine ran stronger than the RX's and Webra 145's we've been running, across the board. Even the 19.1x11 was turned but that prop is too much load.
    So, the K Factor article has just been written and will show up on news stands everywhere eventually. Those curious in more detailed data will just have to wait a little longer to see it.
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

  18. #18
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: DagTheElder

    Hi MTK!
    Have not had a chance to test the wings we have been discussed, but it will come!
    Very interesting the Syssa engine. Is it possible that this engine can perform equally with any pattern engine despite it run on gas and not on alcohol mix. This without tuning it hard with pipes and GP porting etc. It dosent matter if the CC is larger than current Pattern engines if it is light enough to fit within the current weight rules and noise and is equally powerful. The fuel cost here in Norway will be approx 1/5 of alcohol mix.

    Best wishes for your testing
    Hi,

    I just came back from the flying field having test flown the engine. I am very impressed. The plane is an original design that is larger and heavier than the typical pattern models we fly currently. 11# 10 ozs, 1150 square inch wing, full 2X2.

    The prop was 18.1x10 std blade; pipe was ESC40G and fuel was regular 87 octane gasoline with 1% synthetic oil (100:1).

    Excellent, useful power is available from the engine as is, even with the long exhaust duration. The pipe produces a mellow, pattern like sound. I would put the noise level at around 88 dB. Not at all annoying or harsh as can sometimes happen running high nitro glow.

    To me, the engine is a keeper and I am planning to campaign it next year

    MattK
    Regards,
    MattK
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Matt,
    After leaving the field today , having witnessed how well the Syssa performed, I know that I want to use one in my next "wet "ship.

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Hi Matt,
    Can you please post some photos of your engine mount/installation. I'm very interested. I'm a longtime OS140 fan. I have not run a Webra, though I own a 160 and a 145. I have run Bully engines extensively both the 120 and the 145 and found them powerful, reliable and easy to run. I understand the Bully was basically a Webra with a few modifications including a 2-plug head. You mentioned there are issues running Webras, what are they? Is the Syssa pretty much a mount and fly type engine?
    Thanks,
    Will B.

  21. #21
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: flywilly

    Hi Matt,
    Can you please post some photos of your engine mount/installation. I'm very interested. I'm a longtime OS140 fan. I have not run a Webra, though I own a 160 and a 145. I have run Bully engines extensively both the 120 and the 145 and found them powerful, reliable and easy to run. I understand the Bully was basically a Webra with a few modifications including a 2-plug head. You mentioned there are issues running Webras, what are they? Is the Syssa pretty much a mount and fly type engine?
    Thanks,
    Will B.
    Will,

    The Webras are very strong engines but the main thing they tend to suffer from is that the low end needle quality control tends to vary from engine to engine. The 145 blackhead I ran originally (started my learning curve on) was an instant success from the start. Low end openend 1 1/2 turns and high speed needle opened I think 40 clicks. The engine started and ran exactly where it needed, fat, but took the throttle okay. It allowed me to get the necessary break in without burning the engine up as so many have done. After ever two flights, I leaned the high speed needle 1 click. After 10 flights or so, the engine was pretty much where it needed to be at 34 clicks open and 1 1/4 open on the low end.

    On the next 145, I tried to duplicate the settings and the engine just ran hot. I realized that it wasn't the high speed needle that caused the problem but rather the low speed. It was too lean

    I had similar issues with the 160 and have finally come to tame that beastie too. The key thing to remember with the engine is that when you first start it, from the very start, you got to make sure that both needles are rich enough. A couple of lean runs at the start and the bearing will be affected. Then you are chasing your tail. That's why so many fellas had trouble with the engine...the low end variability caused erratic, hot running, which in turn burned up the bearings prematurely and didn't know it.

    Here's a simple cook book formula: low end open 2 turns (should be too rich and that's the point) and hi end open 40 clicks (also rich). The settings should be too rich to fly and you should need to have the igniter on to make it transition. Pipe set with main reflector at 24" from exhaust flange to baffle, straight line (don't follow the header curve). If your exhaust header is straight, add another 3/4" to the length. I used to use OS type F plug but have found that KB 1L plugs work just as well and transition slightly better. It's nice that a 1 dozen card of plugs costs only about 30$ but that's of no consequence. The plug simply works. Anyway, run one tank out with the rich settings, on the ground. Then low end in 1/8 turn at a time and high end in 1 click at a time until the engine takes the throttle and it should stumble but don't fret it. You want the first 10 flights as rich as possible but lean enough to allow the engine to run in the air. Be prepared for dead sticks

    After 10 flights you should be no leaner than about 1 1/8 (but on your carb, it may be slightly more) on the low end and around 34 clicks on the hi end. I ran mine there for years. Sure they need a bit of a tweek with changing weather; they all do. And be patient, you don't want to burn it up prematurely. The main bearing should last over 400 flights as long as you run it out completely after every session and lubricate the bearing between sessions. I have used castor oil for after run for ever and recommend this method.

    The Syssa 30 cc is extremely good engine, better than most. The Webra 160 and the YS 170 are stronger but the Syssa offers simplicity of operation (after the initial learning curve of the CDI, batteries, choke arrangement and rear carb) low purchase and operation cost, and maintenance should be practically nil as most gas engines are. Vibration is almost nothing...the smoothest running 2 stroke I have ever seen. Mine is soft mounted on a mount similar to the Hyde that I built. No nose ring in mine and I don't think it will be needed

    I may reconsider on how strong the engine is after break in is complete but as of right now, that's what I know. And how it operates in summer needs to be experienced. But I don't hesitate to recommend it right now. I have my new design set-up for the ZDZ 40 cc engine and I intend to convert it to the Syssa to save about 10 to 12 ozs. The plane should be around 10 pounds instead of pushing 11. Will try to have the plane done for the Nats

    Hope that helps. I will post photos soon. Ed took a bunch of photos today so he may forward them to me and I will post them. He will probably write a follow up article in the KFactor

    Matt

    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Here's a couple of pictures of the SAP 180 in Matt's Enigma:
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    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    I ran a webra 160 XP for some time. It is a real powerhouse much stronger than OS140 or OS160. Being a two stroke engine it lacks the grunt in the low end compared to the YS. The biggest problem I faced is that it would load up around 1/4 to 1/2 throttle and would flood and die. I tried everything including removing the pump and adding an external perry pump. The only solution was to close the low end needle almost shut but then no idle. Trade off was reliable idle and load up or no idle and good transition. Motor went back to the box and was replaced by much heavier OS160 in the plane. Now webra is up for future experimentation (I am toying the idea of an RCEXL ignition on glow fuel)

  24. #24
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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


    ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

    Here's a couple of pictures of the SAP 180 in Matt's Enigma:
    Thanks Ed,

    The photo on the left shows the soft mount. The ignition module is mounted using the Syssa supplied hardware...simple, effective, clean. The spark plug wire has a plug with a wire retainer spring ring to keep it snug in place. We had to remove the ring to pull the socket off the spark plug.

    The yellow nyrod on top of the picture is the choke rod. The carb factory settings were too lean which caused us some trouble in getting the engine to start, but once we richened it up, we had no problem starting it.

    Matt
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  25. #25

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    RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

    Todd and I talked about stroking the engine and I suggested doing it like we do with a Harley: New crankshaft, piston and cylinder. This allows you to use the same crankcase and connecting rod as the "short stroke" engine and it also makes it easy to update in the field. The crankshaft is one piece (the pin is not removable) so you need to replace the entire thing. I think this engine would respond well to a stroker kit - just like an old Harley does.

    John Pavlick
    Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs, Fly RC Magazine


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