MTK

I am not into IMAC or 3D so I decided to post in the pattern forum

Just took delivery of the 78" X 77" extra 300 from EF. Intent is to put the SAP 30 cc gasoline engine up front and ES30G pipe in the pipe tunnel that this plane comes with already built in. With careful building this ARFie can be brought in at 11 pounds or less.

Wing panels are just under 15 ozs each which is reasonably light for 550 sq inch panels. Each stab half is around 3 1/2 ozs which is a bit heavy but usable.

The kit is very complete with good hardware package. The tail wheel set-up is a little heavy too but I'll use it stock at first. The landing gear that comes standard is aluminum with a pair of large pants and typical axles. I am going to try to build it as stock as practical to get a good idea where it ends up weight wise.

There are a few places where weight could be saved. I'll save that for later after I fly the crate.

I'll post some pics soon

MattK

1bwana1

The 78" EF Extra is a really great flying airplane.  One was recently flown in Masters out here in D-7.  It was the guy's first Pattern contest and he finished mid pack.  You will have to work really hard to get it under 11 pounds.  One of the first things you can do is get the optional CF main gear.  They are about 1/2 the weight of the stock aluminum gear, and are very well made.

vbortone

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Check this web site:

http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48954

I had a chance to fly this plane in San Diego. It is the best scale plane in that size that I ever flown. I agree that is going to be difficult to get it below 11 lbs for the electric model. I am not sure about the gas engine. It will be interesting to know. I suspect that it is easier to get it below 11 lb. I am planing to use it for IMAC not for pattern.

VB

vbortone

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You can easily guess what is *****. It that big stuff that fly.

VB

vbortone

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Here one picture of the one I flew in San Diego (blue one). These are electric using the same power equipment we use in electric pattern. A lot of good information on the FG web site if you want to read more details.

Regards,

VB

MTK

Thanks Vince,

I don't have any interest in e-pattern right now but some folks may. It's good info.

My power plant will be the SAP 30cc gasoline engine on ES pipe, soft mounted on one of my mounts. About the only thing unique will be the prop I will be using...it is not available commercially. I make these myself. I will try to build everything else as stock as I can, at least at first, until I get a final weight.

If it's 11 pounds or under, I'll leave it alone. If not, I'll modify some things to get it under but that won't help anyone else I don't think. we'll see

MattK

vbortone

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Matt,

You are welcome. I think you will be able to get it very close to 11 lbs with no fuel of course. It is just a guess because IC power is around 0.5-1 lb lighter than electric. For gasoline engine is probably around 0.5 lbs lighter. I am sure that you are going to like it. Keep us informed in this list.

Thanks,

Vince

MTK

Here are some weights (grams):

Stab Assy with tube_______________________________223.3
Right wing________________________________________412.6
Left wing_________________________________________419.2
Canopy__________________________________________26 1.3
Fuselage_________________________________________1 061.6
Rudder___________________________________________7 9.7
Cowl_____________________________________________1 37.2
Wing tube________________________________________115.1
Yaw enhancers (aka sfg)____________________________73.3
Aluminum LG_______________________________________169.2
Pants____________________________________________5 5.0
Wheels __________________________________________41.1
Axles____________________________________________1 6.2
Fairings with tube skirt_____________________________18.5
Tail Wheel Assembly_______________________________19.2
Hardware package_________________________________124.3
Gas tank Assembly_________________________________109.1

SubTotal (plane)__________________________________3280.6

Engine, header and coupler_________________________1036.4
Pipe____________________________________________10 1.6
CDI_____________________________________________11 2.0
Soft mount with stand offs_________________________106.5

SubTotal (power assy)____________________________1356.5

Misc. hardware, Fuel dots, spinner, prop, etc__________270 (updated weight based on actuals)

Radio eq_________________________________________520 (Updated weight based on actuals)

Total ()__________________________________________5427 (Not bad)


11# 15.5 ozs..... That is the weight my SAP 30 cc test bed flew at. Pretty much unlimited vertical. Very kool

vbortone

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Matt,

I will weight mine (electric) to compare. It will be interesting. I need to start working on mine.

Vince

MTK

Vince,

Now that I have a projected total, I know I can build it under 5 kilos. I thought the projected total might have been around 12 1/2 - 13 # and there would have been no chance.

There are several places that weight can be shaved off that I see right off. The carbon tube is heavy (typical pattern tube weighs half as much); the stock landing gear is heavy (the gear I build is half the weight); ditto tail wheels assy and tank (this gas engine only needs a 12 oz tank not a 20). The canopy is about 25% the weight of the fuse, wow, surprising. Certainly can make a glass part that will save 100 grams, but that will be last resort.

My immediate objective is to get the crate flying

Matt

MTK

Started to work on the beastie tonight by fitting the engine. Had to cut the firewal out and reposition it 1 1/4" back. The weight is high on this small firewall.

I changed my mind... I am not goingto build this thing stock after all. The new firewall is a carbon balsa laminate which weighs 2 1/3 ozs less than the stock firewall. I'll post pics tomorrow

Matt

baddley

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Hi

I was looking to buy this plane to be my first gasser to get me started. It looks like it is a very stable and fun to fly plane.


What do you guys think of the Syssa 180 or the Zenoha G35 as a powerplant for this plane ?

Also anybody using nano phosphate batteries for their ign or receiver in place of lipos ?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks
Scott

MTK

I have a different thread on my experiences with the SAP 30 cc (Syssa) with an ES 30G pipe. This is a very powerful set-up, more so than the Zen, at a very low weight. We are continuing to be surprised and impressed by how much prop the engine is capable of turning. I will be trying the 20x10 soon...it turns a 19x10 and 18x12 at over 8K on pipe. But to be fair, these are special props that I make by first thinning the standard blades and then laminating with carbon cloth for stiffness and strength. Possibly beyond the scope of the average modeler but doable.

Without the pipe the engine is still strong, just won't turn as much prop.

The supplied gas tank is 19-20 ozs (550 cc). That much fuel will allow flying for 20 minutes which is too much in my opinion. I run mine with an 11 oz tank, which allows around 11-12 minutes of flight. Plenty and keeps my flying buds from getting on my case for being an air hog.

For ignition, we are using the Syssa Ignition Battery Eliminator circuit (IBEC). This device has excellent features such as simple plug into an available port on RX, such as the gear port. It has an LED light that tells you when it's on or off. Activation is simple...just flip the gear switch. It has a built in regulator that drives the CDI at a specific voltage of around 5 volts. The signal is optically isolated there's virtually no feedback possible from the CDI back to the RX. The airborne battery we use is around 1500-2000 ma lipo, regulated down to around 6 Volts. Allows at least 5 flights and probably more. Total draw per flight for ignition is around 100-150 ma.

Matt K

1bwana1

Be aware that the stopper on the included fuel tank is for glow fuel not gas.  We don't want any ugly fuel accidents.

MTK

Here' are a few photos

MTK

Started to work on this thing. First is setting the horns per the instructions. The kit is fairly well pre-fabricated so there isn't a whole lot for the buyer to build really. Mostly assembly.

Stab is factory aligned and so are the wing panels. I will check these to see how close they got. Hopefully I won't have to adjust anything....There is always something off alignment in ARFies in general and if this one is precise from the factory it would be a first.

The wing pins are aluminum and the fit is good....a plastic bolt hold each panel in place. Stab fit is good also. Stab is secured using a set of tabs on each half, which are screwed through to the fuse

MTK

The stab mounting tabs are protected as can be seen in the snap. A nice touch. Forgot to mention that the wing panels and stab panels come bagged. Will be used for transport to field.

MTK

I epoxied a strip of carbon cloth around the cowl as shown. I intend to use a nose ring on the soft mounted engine; the cowl will support the ring. It will require doubling up on the mounting bolts, from 4 to 8. The cowl could take some abuse from the engine so a little extra safety is a good idea

MTK

Forgot to post these photos of the firewall work. The new firewall, an end grained balsa/carbon composite weighs around 25 grams with mounting hardware already installed. It is in a vacuum bag and under a press to keep it flat so no snap until tommorrow. It will be about a 2- 2 1/2 oz weight saving over the plywood original

vbortone

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I am copying and pasting your idea to mount the electric motor. It is good that you are ahead of me building the plane.

Thanks,

Vince

MTK

Vince,

Installed the carbon balsa firewall this morning. The sides of the box are 1/16" and 1/8" lite ply which I felt is a little weak. I added carbon cloth to the outside of the box to lock the structure together better. I'll post photos later.

I was examining the structure where the landing gear mounts. This appears to be well done with some aluminum angle installed to take the landing loads, typical of IMAC type planes.

Another very nice touch is the carbon tubing stringers installed on the bottom of the fuse. If anyone has ever built different extras such as the Midwest, the bottom stringers were wood and tended to break easily. Not a chance with this structure. Well done!!

I also built a new set of gear and pants. I'll post photos of this set-up later. My gear legs stand 50% wider than the stock gear and a little taller. The weight savings is 5 ozs over stock for the whole assembly, without wheels, or 140 grams versus 280 grams for the stock assembly. It isn't often you can save 50% of the original's weight. Worth the effort to me.

Note that Extreme Flight offers a carbon gear set for 50$.

Matt

MTK

The landing gear bolt holes on the aluminum angle are perfectly sized for an 8-32 tap. A quick run through with the tap has simplified installation of the landing gear.

The stock parts will work well enough though. You would have to fish the locking nuts onto the bolts inside the fuse and that might be tricky. A magnetic socket would simplify it of course.

Anyway, in my installation a set of 8-32s will be less hassle. Both the stock gear and the new carbon gear I built are shown. The carbon gear is intended for pattern models which mount a couple inches up on the fuse. Since it will mount on the plane's belly, it is much taller than needed

MTK

Completed the installation of the firewall. Installed the soft mount and engine for cowl fitting, throttle servo, choke, pipe set-up, etc. The cutout for the pipe is shown. There is generous room, that is width, depth and most importantly, length, for the 2" diameter ES30G pipe. I only intend to open the aft section of the tunnel as shown, but one could open the whole belly.....it's just plastic covering. I slit the covering and will iron the slit edges down inside the tunnel and finish with black paint

MTK

Completed landing gear with pants, axles and wheels weighs in at just over 5 ozs. That's less than the original aluminum gear by itself. The weight savings on the gear was almost 6 ozs, which is a little over 50%. Add gram for paint.

Designed for pattern models which sport landing gear a couple inches up on the side of the fuse, my own gear is wider and taller than the stock part. The pants shown are smaller than the original part

MTK

I decided to fully clothe the engine box in carbon cloth. The type of firewall employed, a balsa-carbon laminated sandwich, needs to be supported on both sides to be strong enough. Installed in front of box only the rear could be adequately supported hence the additional cloth all around to secure the front. It added about 10 grams to the fireall installation. That represents a savings of around 50 grams over the stock firewall, 1.8 ozs. Is it worththe trouble and expense? Not to most modelers, but it is worth it to me....I am driving to build the model at less than 11 lbs to make it pattern legal.