mups53

My Feedback: (41)

My 2 cents.
First off I'm lucky to have the AMA site so close to my house in Chicago. I do feel bad for the far away competitors and I'd support a different venue to attract new blood.
I remember going to many combined nats as a kid and I learned a lot about traveling and experiencing different parts of the country attending the changing location Nats.
I think the location issue for the rotating nats had similar issues as the Muncie all the time argumant has. How many would attend a west coast nats is hard to tell butI believe it would be lower than now onlydue to thelogistics involved. Doesn't the population centerof the US lie somewhere in Ohio?
All that said I can tell you that attending the nats the last 3 years has been a total blast for me. I personally do not believe pattern is broken as we have a mini growth spurt gaining momentum here in the Midwest and I know the Virginia area is experiencing the same new found interest. In both casses there has been a strongeffort to get newbies involved.
Someof the things I see positive about patterns future is the carry over from indoor pattern type foamies to the 2 meter planes. I also think the current trend inpattern with really sexy looking planes and many many viable electric options that are getting cheaper all the time help. I've seen a lot of guys quit pattern due toconstant engine problems.
Pattern is not an easy sport to participate in. It's somewhat expensive, it takes a dedicated, time consuming, family splitting (sometimes)effort to be good at. It'll never appeal to the masses but we can still enjoy what we do.
I think growing the sport and making it long term viable takesagrassroot effort. Think were we could be if everyone could get just one newbie aboutevery other yearto give it a try.
Good debate, thanks Tony for starting it. Mike Mueller

Mike Wiz

My Feedback: (2)

I wonder... Way back in pattern's hay day, were all those pilots as hard core as they are today? Did some of the fun go away and become more like work when a large portion of the competitors became really serious?

It's just a thought....

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

We currently fly the Nats in 3 days of preliminaries and then a day of finals for Masters and F3A. There were 29 in Intermediate and Advanced this year. You could run all 6 rounds in the first two days. Intermediate judges Advanced and Advanced judges Intermediate. You could then run two lines of F3A in the morning and then two lines of Masters in the afternoon. (After all, real men fly in the afternoon!) There were 61 that flew in Masters and F3A this year. That's 5.5 hours of Masters and 4.5 hours of F3A. 11 hour days are no problem. Start at 8, finish at 7. On Finals day do the same thing. F3A in the morning, Masters in the afternoon. Or fly the Masters finals on one day and then the F3A finals the last day. Could be easily done with this years amount of entrants in 6 to 7 days. And if we did move it west there probably would be less entrants making it even easier to do.

We have to start running the Nats efficiently. The amount of wasted time, at least at the last two Nats I have attended, is extreme. We have to quit thinking we're going to have 150 entrants and start running it with the actual number of pilots that fly in it.

Here's another thing. Why are we requiring the pre-registration deadline and then the extreme penalty for a late entry? All that is doing is making anyone who thinks they might go pre-register, and then we have 25 no-shows. I know of a couple of people who may have entered except for the late penalty. And then the judges matrix and flight order were never re-done and posted for the actual people who showed up. How hard would it have been to re-print the flight order and do the rotation based on who was actually there?

We need to think out of the box, as the current box is causing a decline in interest.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

As long as I have been in pattern there have always been the serious, dedicated competitors and the ones doing it for "fun". It is, after all, a competition. And there will always be some who place more value on winning then just participating.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

In my opinion the pattern fliers of today are far less cut throat than they were back in the hey day. Ifind the guys today to bemostly helpful and gracious. Now there were plenty ofgreat guys in the past like Dave Brown, RonChidgey and many manyothersbut we had some real buttheads to deal with. Pattern guys are no worse and probably no better thananyone else in society. Remeber that it is a competition and brings out people who are competitive by nature. That comes with strings attachedand has some issues. Heck I've said and done things in the heat of a competition that I fullyregret. Still it happens at times because were human.
Also the reason that pattern suffers from a smaller number of participants is very much like that of watchers of network television. The choices today for RC is far more vast than it was in the 60's and 70's just as there are more than 3 networks to watch. I'm amazed at times that we get the participants that we do.
Mike

Mike Wiz

My Feedback: (2)

Of course, the really serious guy was always really serious. I just wonder, where did all the less serious guys go? Just so you don't misunderstand me; I remember reading about guys like you and Chip for as long as I remember reading RC magazines and I have the utmost respect for you and your ability.

maynardrupp

I am a newbe to pattern flying but I can sure comment on the old Nats format. I flew 4 Nats in the 50s. Yes, there was life then. We flew mostly all free flight classes and indoor microfilm and paper stick. We even had classes for Jetex powered planes, (solid fuel), and PAA payload which was sponsored by Pan American Airlines. It was great to watch all the different venues in one place. I even flew "B" speed one year. I still have the plane and its Dooling 29 engine. I believe I hit 152 mph. The Navy food and quarters were great. Myself and some of the other juniors from the Detroit area travelled to those Nats by Greyhound bus, airplanes and all. We had large "C" class freeflight planes and long wing nordic towline planes. All that plus your large indoor box. Greyhound and its drivers bent over backwards to help us. I wonder if a 15 year old kid whose parents wern't into model flying could afford to attend a Nats today? Would their parents even let them go by themselves in our seemingly scary society today? Yup, times have changed but I will never forget the great times us kids had by ourselves at the Nave sponsored Nats back in the 50s. I still have the trophies I won there.

protectedpilot

Maybe I'm missing something here, Tony, but are you trying to get MORE or LESS contestants? Methinks your numbers for Int/Adv are off, I was there. We had 19 in Adv alone. Nearly that in Int. And the concept of using Int to judge Adv is off, too. One of the attractions of flying Adv in Muncie is getting better judges than we do at local contests, generally. FAI and Adv are similar in a thing, at local contests they are primarily judged by pilots with less skill than themselves. Lower class judges simply do not understand what they are looking at in some cases. They have great intentions and do their best, but we all know this is true. This problem doesn't get MUCH better for FAI, but for Adv, at least, it does get better in Muncie.

Some of the issues with registration/late registration are done in an attempt to make things happen seamlessly. BUT, it seems to me you have ample ideas to volunteer your help! It is easy to take shots, but better to pony up and help if you perceive a problem. In all fairness, Tony, you did not make it a point to help out the CD this year (And I am being kind, here). Dave is always looking for help, as will Rusty next year, I am sure. Personally, I would rather they plan for 150 and get 90 pilots than the reverse. And I would LOUDLY resist rearranging things with the intent to get a lower number of pilots. Mainly, though, I would like to encourage MORE contestants to let the CD know that they CAN and WILL help. Any CD can tell you that it is sometimes a scramble to keep judges in the chair. Things always change, no matter how prepared we were. BTW, YES, I do judge extra rounds over and above my obligatory rounds. (Have for the past several NATS, and have not accepted their offered monetary incentives.) Not many do, and they should. Bottom line is, if you see a problem with running a contest, jump in and help. Complain if your help is refused and the running still sucks, but offer to help first. Help, BTW, consists of doing it THEIR WAY, unless you are the CD.

Move the NATS? Sure, great idea. Jim Thompson did a great job of submitting a proposal to move the NATS to Crowley, Louisiana. Did all of the logistical work, everything. Jim has run MANY contests and is an excellent contest director. He and Jon Martin put on a heck of a contest twice a year in Crowley.The NSRCA just wasn't ready to move the NATS yet. If they were, I'd love the idea of Colorado/Oklahoma/Kansas. Louisiana is a bit hot for me, and I live here. But Jim and Jon Martin could easily make it happen and did everything they could to MAKE it happen. The Board just didn't see it that way at the time.

I am not certain that the AMA has it's heart in the NATS. Years ago, the NSRCA took the bull by the horns and put on an 'alternate' NATS. THAT made the AMA get off its high horse and address our concerns. Maybe it IS time to do something similar, again. We got $2 trophies with a $100 entry fee in Muncie this year. It was an embarrassment. Fantastic mementos for a NATIONALS; not. Mine was 5" X 7" plaque which the AMA etch-a-sketched in-house. Also, the AMA left the grass at site 4 long enough to rip landing gear out on takeoff, for one contestant who had legitimate aspirations of winning Adv this year. He finished 6th with a backup plane that had motor trouble. He, for one, deserved better. I asked both my AMA District VP and NSRCA District VP to look into these issues first, BTW. Haven't gotten any substantative responses yet, but they were asked before going public. To make matters worse, this is a young man who was at his first NATS. Not a great way to get him back, although I am certain he is far above dropping out because of one bad experience. Maybe someone else would have.

Again, maybe it IS time to move the NATS. But let's do it with the intent to increase participation, not just to better the experience for 10 pilots in FAI and 10 pilots in Masters. Let's move it to an area which is accessable to a larger number of pilots. Might take some homework to figure out, but it is precisely this reason for which the NSRCA was formed.

My 2 cents, fire away.

Brian

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

I just went again to the Nats Scores and there were 12 contestants who flew in Intermediate and 17 who flew in Advanced. So I believe my numbers are correct.

If you are referring to what I think you are referring to regarding me and the ED, you are way off base. Dave made a big mistake and he never made a proper attempt to correct it the entire week. I don't know what you heard but I would be more then happy to tell you the details personally if you would be willing to listen.

After last years Nats I was asked to write up my suggestions for improving the Nats. I did that and it was largely ignored. As to helping at the Nats, I offered at the last Nats to judge more then one round. I was not used more then once, so I didn't bother to offer this year. This year the NSRCA board did not even let it be known that they were looking for another ED to run the Nats. They appointed the 2011 ED with practically no one even being able to volunteer.

Moving the Nats around will not always get higher numbers at the different location. What it will do is allow some who would not normally get to attend a Nats be able to do so. That might just get some fired up and then they will make the trip to Muncie when it is back there. You really can't move the Nats to an area MORE accessible then Muncie. That's why the AMA bought the Muncie field. But it would be the right thing to move it around and make the Nats accessible for many who would otherwise not attend.

highfly3D

Since IMAC has come in people are jumping for the big gas planes giant scale has become a madness F3A is a serous & challenging as compared to IMAC. JUNKY IMAC...

mjfrederick

Personally, I would like to see an accounting of the Pattern Nats. How much the AMA spends versus how much they take in in entry fees/concessions/whatever other cookie jars they have their hands in. Let's just say they had 125 contestants paid this year (doesn't matter how many showed). At $100 a pop that's $12,500. So, just working with that $12,500, let's see what kind of expenses they have. Hmmm... trophies? Well, at a probable average (based on what I saw this year) of $2.50 per trophy, times 5 trophies per class, times 4 classes, thats $50. OK, they have $12,450 left to play with. From what I understand the event director is compensated (not sure why, but OK, seems to me that if the NSRCA ran it themselves it would probably be a 100% volunteer effort). Let's say they pay the event director's travel and expenses for the week plus a stipend of $500, and let's assume that event director had to fly in from, I don't know, Italy. OK, now the AMA is down to $10,000. What else do they have to pay for? Grass cutting? Gimme a break, they're gonna cut the grass anyway (or not as the case may be). AMA staff? The Nats are held during the week so they're getting paid anyway, and there shouldn't be any overtime involved. Concessions? I hear that the AMA allows outside vendors to come in and sell concessions in exchange for a cut of the sales. Pilots' dinner? That's an NSRCA function that is handled using NSRCA funds/ticket sales (not even sure if there was one held this year, haven't heard it mentioned). Should we be compensating judges? No. It's been understood in pattern since the early to mid nineties that contestants are required to judge. It's just as much part of competing as going out and practicing before a contest. It doesn't matter how many judging assignments you end up with, you don't deserve anything extra if you are asked to take an extra assignment or two. As long as it doesn't conflict with your flying time, you should do it, and be honored with the priveledge. OK, so based on my extremely rough, and extremely uninformed analysis the AMA profits $10,000 from the Pattern Nationals, plus whatever cut they take from the concession vendors. Not a bad week's work for a non-profit organization for giving us the priveledge of flying at a facility that is open to all AMA members. I would have said it's open to all members year-round, but they had the genius idea of locating the facility in Indiana, which means it's pretty much useless for outdoor flying 1/3 of the year.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I have had to drive at least 5 hours to every contest I've ever been to. I've been gearing up for the 15ish hour drive to Muncie at some point in the near future, when my flying skills get sharp enough to fly intermediate, and when I can afford the time off (school or work).

I would not travel across the country to go to a contest, but I would drive to the middle of it.

That being said, I'm moving to a place 2.5 hours from Muncie, so regardless of time and flying skills, I will be there for at least a spectating weekend next year (hopefully flying though .

It makes sense to me to keep it in the middle of the country, where almost everyone is within a one or two day car ride away.

As for all the cost stuff, all I can say is Thank You to the guys who have put on the great contests I've been to in D1. I'm sure I can say for everyone that we appreciate all the work of the CD's and the support teams at the local contests.

Columbus Ron

Tony and Brian are you both concerned about the shrinking intermediate and advanced pilot attendance at the NATS or everyone? I don't think the popularity of the NATS for the master and FAI pilots could be any higher. My concern is that once the masters and FAI pilots retire who are going to fill their ranks. I believe the real problem is the popularity of pattern with the younger crowd. Most younger pilots are gravitating toward IMAC and helicopters. Not sure you can fix that. IMAC and helicopters just have more of a wow factor that is appealing to the younger pilots that like to show off. It's like comparing baseball and football. The younger crowd like the fast paced game of football while the older crowd like the more cerebral game of baseball. Maybe you should ask Mark Leseburg why he decided to give pattern a try or why Andrew Jesky and Brett Wickizer find pattern more appealing than IMAC or why some of the younger up and commers are flying pattern rather than IMAC. I know D4 has recently lost a few hardcore pattern flyers to IMAC.

protectedpilot

Ron, I agree that some other forms of RC obsession possess a greater wow factor. But that is not what pattern is all about. Pattern is about controlling the aircraft. Almost anybody can do an inside loop; but can you do it EXACTLY in front of yourself, EXACTLY round, at EXACTLY 150 meters distance, and after performing a turnaround within a 60deg box at the same 150 meter distance from the flight line? Gary Courtney said it best; people watch those events for the thrill of anticipation, waiting for a spectacular crash. So, it boils down to the sex appeal between control and demolition.

The way to entice younger pilots is to spend time with them, encouraging the sense of building something, not just abusing equipment to the point of failure. We show them the sense of satisfaction in learning to control the aircraft by bringing our own skills under control. The skills of flying, trimming, motor operation, building, radio programming and yes, teaching them the value of honest hard work in practise. There are so many avenues of RC expression these days, perhaps that has diluted the pool somewhat. But I do not anticipate the demise of pattern, because I prefer building to demolition or anticipation of the same.

Brian

protectedpilot

Matt, the NSRCA does do an accounting of the NATS, as does the AMA. It's a simple matter to obtain. Perhaps one of the Board members here could oblige? I do not believe it is any great secret.....

ArchNemesis

Ron,

I completely agree with you about focusing on the lower classes, BUT...I have to contradict you a little.  I've been observing just the opposite in D4.  We had 6 Sportsman and 5 Intermediates at a 20 person contest this weekend and I think 8 of those 11 traveled to get there (not just a big group of locals).  I've seen more new sportsman entries this year then in the past 10, again, with many of them traveling to their first contest.   I actually think entry level is on the rise at least around us.   As for the two we lost to IMAC, I think you'll see them both back as early as next year.  They've become VERY disillusioned with IMAC's lack of adherence to their own rulebook as far as judging and precision goes.   They've cited significant "Regional presentation bias" as a major source of frustration.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

I've thought about what I can do to influence people to come to pattern vs: IMAC. I've come to the conclusion that the best way is to be friendly and helpful to others be it newbies or just regular guys at your field. The thing that turns guys off more than anything is their perception ofour group as a whole.
At our local field pattern has ruled the roost for many years. That tide is turning and IMAC and 3D guys are taking over. A few of them are vocal about their dislike for pattern fliers. This is partly because of arrogance and aprima donna attituidethat happened long ago. I'm flat worn out with the indifference which I feel I had nothing to do with. We have guyssnipping at the pattern fliers at our field who don't even belong to our club but fly there and use up our facility without regard for the maintenance costs. It's a public park that we maintainbut common courtesy plays inhere.
So what am I getting at? This...... Resist attaching an opinion of a person based on what sport he participates in. Saying all IMAC guysare jerks or saying allpattern guys are rotten is nonsense. In some cases we are fighting a bad reputation issue that was caused a longtime ago.
It is my experience that the guys flying pattern today are mostly really nice and helpful. We need to continue to do things right and hopefully this will get more involved.
As far as making pattern seem sexy and getting to the younger guys I'll give you this. Indoor pattern with foamies has a lot of new talented younger guys who would like to do the same outdoors. Encourage them and we might have an answer for the 3D'in heli and big gassers. Plus these guys are already doing E. planes and they are used to what it entails.
The Nats plain and simple need a major overhaul. There's nothing besides flying that is appealing. It doesn't generate enough buzz to get a lot of people interested.
Mike

Columbus Ron

I've been in pattern since 2004. I got in the hobby at the urging of Ken Alexander, Bob Schofield and Dowayne Gould. I'm not sure whether I should thank them or curse them My first impression of numerous D4 members wan't so positive. It didn't take long for most in D4 to warm to me and I to them but it wasn't immediate. Perhaps that is the problem. Let me offer some examples and possible solutions. When a sportsman pilot offers to carry your plane or call for you don't blow him off. Show them the proper way to carry a plane and what to watch out for. Don't get all over someone because they call the wrong manuver at a contest. I'm sure they didn't mean it. Its supposed to be fun. I suggest the upper level pilots even invite a sportman or intermediate pilot to call for them on occassion. This makes them feel more like one of the gang. Judges should alway offer advice to sportsman and intermediate pilots after each round. Don't wait until they ask. I found the judges didn't start offering advice until they were sure I was hooked. That may be too late.

My 2 cents.

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Fix the Nats, attract people to lower classes? Really easy: have two NSRCA regional championships. One in the East and One in the West on the same weekend each fall. Run the contests like any other district contest, rotate it from district to district each year. Whatever, have a big (NSRCA) bash on each end of the country every year. Promote it and they will come!

Since I started flying pattern this year. I have noticed I have gotten a lot more intense and quite frankly tend to blow people off. After realizing this, I now make a special effort to talk to the people during my down time. Sometimes its nothing more than sitting/standing next to them in the pits making myself available for questions and I always make a point of initializing conversation. "Hey sorry I was kind of focused before; here's a sportsman call card, how about I help you give it a try"?

I've been putting in a lot of effort into getting pattern going in Boise, ID this year. Maybe you read my article in a recent K-Factor. After a season of learning, practicing, writing, promoting, traveling etc.. I ask my fellow NSRCA members this. "Do you knuckleheads understand most modelers have NO idea what the NSRCA is or what a pattern airplane can do"?

I had a guy tell me he doesn't want a pattern airplane because he wanted something with unlimited vertical. After standing my plane on end and showing him I had as much vertical as my old eyes can handle. He is showing more interest in pattern airplanes. In other words, contests will take care of themselves. The real under lying problem is "not enough people are flying pattern airplanes". The biggest difference I see between now and yesterday is that "back in the day" everybody flew a pattern airplane. Nowadays everybody flys a 3D plane or a Helicopter.

People have preconceptions of us pattern pilots because of a lack of communication!

I rest my case...

protectedpilot

Tony, I stand corrected. My apologies if I caused anyone to infer any wrongdoing on your part. Volunteering for additional judge stints is commendable, and you have been a respected member of the pattern community for many years. Team member on occasion, if memory serves. I know the guys in Masters (including me next year) would love to see you move BACK up.

I WOULD like to take this opportunity to urge everyone to become involved; help the ED (CD for all intents) at the NATS next year, it will be his first NATS to run. Dave Guerin will be running the World Championships the week before, and it is simply too much to do a NATS right behind that. I'm planning on helping Dave at the WC's, and perhaps fly the next week as well. I'll probably judge extra rounds as usual, which makes for a fun week for me.

There will be a new class, with a new pattern for me next year, it all ought to be a blast. Gonna continue to campaign my two Shindens (Shindii?) with YS motivation. Glow engines and me are kinda like a light case of arthritis; an old friend I know quite well that gives me a little ache here and there! In all fairness, though, we had two flameouts at the Advanced line in Muncie; both were electrics! Maybe I'm not Team material, but it has been a heck of a good ride since that first control line model in 1961. It made 2 rounds before returning destructively to earth. Things are a bit better, now.

Brian

tobytorkn

My Feedback: (1)

from the perspective of a guy who has flown both imac and pattern (and who eats and breaths both), I see it as pattern has no bling event like imac does. take for instance, we started having the TOC, then the JR challenge, then the Tucson Shootout, Now the Clover Creek event. Young guys gravitate towards these big events, they love watching the videos, seeing the top pilots compete, etc. We do not have that in pattern. yes, i know we have the f3a worlds, the nats, etc; but we don't have anything compared to these above events. just look at the etoc that started a few years ago, now look at how many young kids compete in it. plaster it on the internet, show vids, make it popular and people will take interest. to be honest, some of the nicest people i've ever flown with was at pattern contests. until we publicize the events, they will not be popular. the gentleman who talked about an east coast/west coast competition is a start, now run with it. toby silhavy

bwick

I don't think pattern is ever going to be as popular or enticing as the big IMAC/freestyle contests. These events have BIG airplanes flying slow and close to the ground, music pumping, cash prizes for the winners... pattern can't compete with that. But I say who cares? For me, and I think for most top competitors, pattern is about the pursuit of perfection. Nothing else in the RC world requires so much attention to detail, dedication, experience, and understanding to be great at. I don't think we should look to the Tuscon Shootout or Clover Creek or what-have-you for inspiration, those events are filling a different purpose. The only reason they get attendance from the top echelon of pilots is because of the cash prizes. Every pattern flier, intermediate or F3A, competes out of his own pocket. So, why then does pattern still attract the best pilots in the world? Because it's the most competitive, most legitimate, and most cutting edge place to be... and I think THATS what we need to sell.

Passport1

My Feedback: (8)

Could not agree more.

C

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Most seem to forget the TOC was a pattern event in the begining. Then they added a 10% bonus for scale airplanes. Then the size started to encrease and IMHO IMAC was born from the TOC. So logic follows that IMAC was born from Pattern. If one looks back at the pilots they were, for the most part, the cream of the worlds pattern fliers at the time.

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Brett

All excellent points.

I got back into pattern after 10 years of Jets, Big Bird, and owning & flying 3 full scale aircraft. I choose to go back at the FAI level because of the "Challenge" of not only the flying, but the "challenge" of the dealing with the most sophisticated aircraft and equipment in any sport. At almost 65 years of age I have no dillusions of being able to compete with the younger crowd! It's all about the pursit of "perfection" which is rarely, if ever, obtained. I did this thinking I would not compete in contests, but I guess if you are born with a competive spirit, it's always there!

Are you going to Dallas? Your welcome to share my Valiant if you need to as I know Bryan won"t be there. Ron & I are planning on driving up very early Saturday AM.

Dick