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  1. #51
    eddieC's Avatar
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    72 Mhz isn't going anywhere for quite a while. There have been articles written about this on the AMA website. I have too many 72mhz planes to switch, even considering many low-cost 2.4 receivrs are in the $9-$24 range. 

    One thing 2.4 has caused is less frequency congestion at the field. I can remember waiting nearly an hour to fly because 3 of us were on the same freq.  Now, 72 is rare. 
    I might not be very good, but I am fun to watch!

  2. #52

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey
    2.4 also eliminates most of the glitching/interference issues associated with 72mhz such as rubbing metal, gas ignition nosie etc.(though the downside of this is that some have become lazy in regards to installation practices)
    Does it really eliminate glitching/interference issues or does it just mask the problems because of better discrimination? I know from my 72 MHz days that if you did not address the glitching/interference issues they only got worse with time. Could it be that these same issues left uncorrected eventually overwhelm the 2.4 receiver? Could this possibly be a reason for some of the so called brown outs or rebooting of the systems that we hear about? I know quite a few pilots who went to 2.4 because they always seemed to have radio problems. They have not gotten any better at installing the radio gear in fact because they have 2.4 gear it’s no longer a concern in their mind.

    The only two issues I know of with the 72 MHz radios are events that restrict all radios to 2.4 technology and will not allow 72 MHz radio equipment and the second is when clubs are close enough a frequency sharing agreement may regulate that both clubs use 2.4 only.

  3. #53
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    A badly grounded ignition can kill just about any rf signal- -I just covers a lot of the spectrum
    But minor stuf which bothered 72 MHZ doesn't usually bother 2.4 Gig.
    Guys who don't ever learn how to do a radio installation -will likely screw up 2.4.
    Trying to get some people to learn proper setups is simply impossible .
    Libby is still watching you

  4. #54

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Yep it just never sinks in to some. One long time modeler in our club bought his first gasser and put it in a large arf biplane. Range check without engine running was perfect. Once the engine was running it didn't mater where he was the darn thing had St Vitas disease. The control surfaces were flapping badly enough it looked like it was trying to take flight and the engine was all over the place. Next time he brought it out he told us he had solved the problem by installing a new 2.4 radio. The hobby shop owner recommended it as it would solve all his interference problems. A month goes by and it locks up and goes in hard. Total write off. He blames the radio because of what he has read on the internet about the supposed problems with that brand of radio. He was convinced it was not in any way his fault. He had changed nothing except the receiver in the plane. Same location (6 inches from the throttle servo, ignition battery and ignition module, the original 4 cell receiver pack 700 mA, steel rigging wire close enough at the intersection to rub against each other and the antennas and servo leads unsecured and free to flop around inside the structure.

  5. #55
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

    If it does what you need, and you're willing to accept the risk that goes with the pin/channel system, there's no reason to upgrade.

    OTOH, if you attend lots of events, or demand the most from your equipment in terms of system response speed, or want features such as servo synch or model match then you may want to upgrade. Many larger events are moving to 2.4 only so as not to have to deal with the manpower and logistics of transmitter impound. That and I just dont trust people not to turn a radio on at a swap meet/fly in where a bunch of people I know nothing about are running around. Heck I've seen shoot downs by experienced modelers, everyone can make a mistake.

    2.4 also eliminates most of the glitching/interference issues associated with 72mhz such as rubbing metal, gas ignition nosie etc.(though the downside of this is that some have become lazy in regards to installation practices)
    A good explanation of 2.4 vs. 72Mhz. Thanks.
    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  6. #56
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    deleted duplicate post.
    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  7. #57
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

    If it does what you need, and you're willing to accept the risk that goes with the pin/channel system, there's no reason to upgrade.

    OTOH, if you attend lots of events, or demand the most from your equipment in terms of system response speed, or want features such as servo synch or model match then you may want to upgrade. Many larger events are moving to 2.4 only so as not to have to deal with the manpower and logistics of transmitter impound. That and I just dont trust people not to turn a radio on at a swap meet/fly in where a bunch of people I know nothing about are running around. Heck I've seen shoot downs by experienced modelers, everyone can make a mistake.

    2.4 also eliminates most of the glitching/interference issues associated with 72mhz such as rubbing metal, gas ignition nosie etc.(though the downside of this is that some have become lazy in regards to installation practices)
    I plan on building my first turbine-powered jet this spring. Can anybody explain why I should use 2.4 with my first jet instead 72Mhz? Does the Jets Over Kentucky require 2.4? Not saying I would be ready to fly there - just curious what they require in the way of radio's.


    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  8. #58

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


    ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

    If it does what you need, and you're willing to accept the risk that goes with the pin/channel system, there's no reason to upgrade.

    OTOH, if you attend lots of events, or demand the most from your equipment in terms of system response speed, or want features such as servo synch or model match then you may want to upgrade. Many larger events are moving to 2.4 only so as not to have to deal with the manpower and logistics of transmitter impound. That and I just dont trust people not to turn a radio on at a swap meet/fly in where a bunch of people I know nothing about are running around. Heck I've seen shoot downs by experienced modelers, everyone can make a mistake.

    2.4 also eliminates most of the glitching/interference issues associated with 72mhz such as rubbing metal, gas ignition nosie etc.(though the downside of this is that some have become lazy in regards to installation practices)
    I plan on building my first turbine-powered jet this spring. Can anybody explain why I should use 2.4 with my first jet instead 72Mhz? Does the Jets Over Kentucky require 2.4? Not saying I would be ready to fly there - just curious what they require in the way of radio's.


    I have flown Turbine jets with 72Mhz and 2.4. I personally would never fly anything expensive on 72Mhz ever again. After over 30 years of flying on 72Mhz it has been so relaxing not to have to Debug each new model for sources of RF Noise, Wait for the Frequency Pin, Hope no one shows up at the field while you are flying and shoots you down because they did not remember to get the Frequency Pin.

    Twice this summer, we have had perhaps 4 or 5 pilots at our flying field and two show up on the same 72Mhz channel. One shoots down the other because neither knew the other was on his channel and only one thought to get the pin. Some pilots are even forgetting to extend the Silver Sword because they are so used to flying on 2.4. Add to that, people with ground vehicles buying cheap, high end 72Mhz Tx's and driving their boats or cars near a flying field.

    When all we had was 72Mhz, I survived with a very small number of lost aircraft. Flying always has a certain element of Risk. We control what we can. In this case, 72Mhz is a risk I am no longer willing to take. Your situation may be different. I feel much more secure with 2.4. I have not had in incident since I began using 2.4 in 2007.
    Rich
    byronf16@gmail.com

  9. #59

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    It's getting even worse at our field........250 members or so......The 72MH (I was on)(GAS) until last week) guys don't bother to go to the board because their attitude is.....no one is on their FREQ anymore...............The things you over hear people say .......like everyone is on 2.4 so why bother to pull a pin......Sheeeeeeesh!! I just switched to 2.4 after hearing several of these type comments from these less than, sharp tools in the box.

    Not only is the plane I fly costly, its the 100 hours of detail work I do............ just to loose it to an idiot. Sorry as I get older my time is more valuable as the clock ticks down!!!!!!!!!! I would rather spend it flying not fixing what some Jack A_S tears up.

  10. #60

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Its really quite simple, 2.4 has quite a few advantages over 72 MHz. Sooner or later you will probably convert. Your 72 MHz equipment is still viable and will be for some time. Some fields or events are 2.4 only. Jumping into a new system is expensive especially if you have quite a few models and choose to retrofit all of them. You haven’t been flying for a while so I hope you intend to ease into it again starting with the easiest model to fly that you own. This will give you a chance to observe what 2.4 systems are popular at your field and ask a lot of questions so when you are ready to make the plunge you will be able to make an informed decision. Several people I know started this way. Flew their older planes and radios but anything new they built with their 2.4 systems. As money allowed they slowly converted over the rest of their fleet. This way they never missed a second of flying time.

    Dennis

  11. #61

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Welcome back!!! I personally have 3 radios, 1 Futaba 6EXA FM 72Mhz I use with a few  smaller electric airplanes (I use corona synthesized rx's for these to keep the weight down). 1 6ch 2.4Ghz that came with an RTF Airplane, And my favorite, a Turnigy 9x, that I added a smartieparts circuit board to for $45.00. This is my favorite radio! Less than $100 shipped. With the additional circuit board, I can download new firmware as it becomes available, since the firmware is considered "Open Source". The current firmware I'm running has increased my model memories from the original 8 to 16, and it has virtually unlimited mixing, all switches and pots (knobs) are assignable to whatever mix or channel I desire. I can use tx modules, should I decide I want to bind to Assan, Futaba, JR, or Hitec. Since my rx's cost is so low, I don't see why I would want to. Average price for a 6ch rx is $9.00, 8ch is about $13.00. I have flown 8 different airplanes, both electric and glow, and have had no problems due to radio failure.
     I know, I know, a lot of the guys on here would never be so crazy as to fly with one of these radios, but I have, and the amount of money I've saved has bought me a few airplanes. Some one a the public field that I frequent said "Well, I wouldn't trust that radio with a $3000.00 airplane". I politely told him that $3000.00 to him is the same as $200.00 to me. And I will trust any of my airplanes to my Turnigy 9x.

    P.S. My screen splash when I first turn my radio on says "Warning my radio will make you jealous- I can do it better, and cheaper"
     

  12. #62

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Some interesting comments about the deterioration of frequency control on 72 mhz. We've had one near shoot down from a dual user forgetting to get a pin but the plane losses have been from dual users failing to pull the stick on their 72 mhz.

    We've had a few inexplicable - unexplainable 2.4 losses. One 2.4 user finally gave up on a transmitter that had been returned twice and decommissioned it.

    We still have I'll guess 25% 72mhz activity. I've twenty or so planes all on 72mz and have a buddy that flies 72mhz exclusively yet. I do have my first 2.4 rig on the way.

  13. #63

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: AA5BY


    We've had a few inexplicable - unexplainable 2.4 losses.
    This is what worries me. The only model I ever lost to radio issues was a shoot-down by a derp who forgot to get the pin. So I bought a cheap ARF to "try out" my new 2.4 system.

    The more I look into it, the more I realize my concerns are mainly fear of the unknown. This stuff isn't nuclear physics; I'm now confident I won't have any trouble.

    But I'm keeping my old 9Z and its receivers...


    .

  14. #64
    rmh's Avatar
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    ORIGINAL: LSP972


    ORIGINAL: AA5BY


    We've had a few inexplicable - unexplainable 2.4 losses.
    This is what worries me. The only model I ever lost to radio issues was a shoot-down by a derp who forgot to get the pin. So I bought a cheap ARF to ''try out'' my new 2.4 system.

    The more I look into it, the more I realize my concerns are mainly fear of the unknown. This stuff isn't nuclear physics; I'm now confident I won't have any trouble.

    But I'm keeping my old 9Z and its receivers...


    .
    There is no black magic - all of these digital devices have SOME reason for quitting - far les than the old stuff on 72.xx which could be tested to a far thee well on the ground then simpy start glitching in th e air .
    The reasons WHY? are simply different .
    The usual suspect is simply put ; loss of power and THAT covers a mulitude of reasons - some of which are mysteries because after the crash- the batteries, when read, show they have charge remaining and poor connections only show up under load /time tests they can and will overheat and power drops.
    .
    This kind of testing is confusing UNLESS you have test device which will show load and voltage and you know how to read it.
    Rx don't just stop for no reason.
    They can fail but rx failure is typically a permanent thing unless it is heat sensitive. Those types are pretty much out of service now -
    Incorrect antenna placement and poor choice of antenna TYPE fool some users . ALL brands - all prices - seen it- .
    Votage regs are naughty little things - they heat up and quit yet return to normal operation quickly when temps drop.

    These fool a number of users as they really are over rated by some mfgrs. when in doubt - double the specs .
    If all this seems too much for you - study up - it isn't difficult.

    Libby is still watching you

  15. #65

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Hello you said you like futaba. take a look at the T8FG supper gives you up to fourteen chanels with a s bus system if you want it very good radio.

  16. #66
    Moderator BarracudaHockey's Avatar
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    ORIGINAL: Propworn


    ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey
    2.4 also eliminates most of the glitching/interference issues associated with 72mhz such as rubbing metal, gas ignition nosie etc.(though the downside of this is that some have become lazy in regards to installation practices)
    Does it really eliminate glitching/interference issues or does it just mask the problems because of better discrimination? I know from my 72 MHz days that if you did not address the glitching/interference issues they only got worse with time. Could it be that these same issues left uncorrected eventually overwhelm the 2.4 receiver? Could this possibly be a reason for some of the so called brown outs or rebooting of the systems that we hear about? I know quite a few pilots who went to 2.4 because they always seemed to have radio problems. They have not gotten any better at installing the radio gear in fact because they have 2.4 gear it’s no longer a concern in their mind.

    The only two issues I know of with the 72 MHz radios are events that restrict all radios to 2.4 technology and will not allow 72 MHz radio equipment and the second is when clubs are close enough a frequency sharing agreement may regulate that both clubs use 2.4 only.
    There's a couple things that need to be understood.

    About the interference.....
    2.4ghz operates way above the frequency range of most common sources of interference.

    Brownouts and rebooting are another matter and not related to interference. They are caused by voltage drops under load. There's a couple of factors at work here.

    Drag the voltage down on any system, no matter the frequency range, and it will shut down. A momentary shut down on a 72mhz system may just appear as a "glitch" to the pilot on the ground. A 2.4 reciever has to reboot, how long that takes varies but systems now connect pretty quickly (yes the older Spektrum/JR systems had some issues requiring 3 seconds but thats been addressed). Now....if you have an adaquate power system for the model you're flying that takes in to account the number and type of servos, and the flying style, and you won't have "mysterious brown outs".

    The problem is exacerbated by the proliferation of digital servos. Guys get new systems, throw a bunch of digital servos on it, dont take mounting precautions, and then run the whole thing with a 600mah NiMH then crash and blame the radio.

    6 volt (5cell nickel or 2s A123) give you enough overhead that if you start loading up the system and dragging the voltage down you have enough to spare you a reboot.


    Edit: If you REALLY want to learn about 2.4 radios and don't mind investing a few bucks for peace of mind and education, Paul Naton did a very comprehensive DVD on 2.4 radio systems that I highly recommend. Though he's a glider guy, 90 percent of the info pertains to all of us.
    http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...rticle_id=1437
    Andy - Helicopter Forum Moderator
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    www.JaxRC.com

  17. #67

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Just did that myself, took all my Futaba 72mhz radios and put them on ebay
    then turned around and put the money towards the newer 2.4 stuff
    glad I did it . also changed out ALL my Battery's to LiFe. good to go now
    for another 30 years
    Jeff
    ** CUB BROTHERHOOD ** #90

  18. #68
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    ORIGINAL: LSP972


    But I'm keeping my old 9Z and its receivers...
    I said the same thing even though I'd bought a new 2.4GHz radio due to nearly trashing a 33% size gasser from RF interference. There had been so much development near our field along with churches, schools and parks where the uninitiated could operate their newly aquired "toy" without any idea of what problems they could cause. When all those little toys started coming in 72MHz rather than the 27MHz which they had been using, it changed the whole game plan.

    Long story shorter; I started with foamies and worked into some bigger stuff to build my confidence in the new radio. Then I flew a .90 size glow model one day with the 9Z WCII and with the new 2.4GHz radio the next day. WOW! I could not believe the difference in the control response and how fast it was compared to the 72MHz radio.

    I put all the 72MHz stuff, including my 9Z, up for sale that day and never looked back...
    Zeeb

  19. #69
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Note those not wanting to sell off all their 72Mhz RX can upgrade to the Aurora 9 system which supports both 72Mhz (any channel, any shift) and 2.4Ghz so you can fly all your old stuff and more forward with the new technology that suports built in battery telemetry and the option to add more.

    Mike.
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    http://www.hitecrcd.com

  20. #70

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    I just upgraded this fall as my old high time 8UAF(pre super) finally failed. The gimbal wires were breaking @ a strain relief point from flexing.
    Replaced it with a 8FG super purchased used here.
    Sold all my 72MH stuff then utilized the $ to buy additional aftermarket receivers to reequip the fleet.
    Programming took a bit to relearn and getting one plane working was just a bit more frustrating than I felt it should have been but overall am very happy. The new unit has better stick feel and response that the old worn unit had so based on that alone the upgrade was worth it. I had attended a couple of events each year up until last season when two of the clubs hosting went 2.4 only so now can go and fly there again.
    My take is fly what you have now, with radios new in the box you have easily 10 years of trouble free use in each unit once new batteries are installed. "IF" you start getting the yearning to compete or just attend open fun fly's then look to upgrade. A 2.4 TX module is an easy low cost start and can be picked up used from the for sale form for a good price if you are patient.
    New 2.4 radios are better than their equivalent 72 parents but unless you are a really avid high time flyer there is no real reason to discard perfectly functional units just yet.

  21. #71

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    The cheapest 2.4 GHz radio made today with the basic servos will outperform any late 80's radio. Buy something that will support whatever flying style you were used to flying. It is really embarassing that bulk name brand $10 servos are better than premium pattern servos from the 80's. Now the for a few dollar clone servos don't seem to be very reliable. I have an old Proline radio that I get out and play with to remind me of the old days.

  22. #72

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    2.4 receivers seems to be more tough than its counterpart 72Mhz, it seems that they are less prone to get damaged if crashed.

  23. #73
    Moderator BarracudaHockey's Avatar
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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    They have no plug in crystal, everything is SMT, its also why they are less prone to vibration induced failures.

    HOWEVER, that doesnt mean they should be hard mounted, atleast a nice thick velcro and a tie down strap should be used.
    Andy - Helicopter Forum Moderator
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  24. #74

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!


    ORIGINAL: MikeMayberry

    Note those not wanting to sell off all their 72Mhz RX can upgrade to the Aurora 9 system which supports both 72Mhz (any channel, any shift) and 2.4Ghz so you can fly all your old stuff and more forward with the new technology that suports built in battery telemetry and the option to add more.

    Mike.
    I had two Hitec Eclipse radios on 72 MHz. I converted one over with a 2.4 Spectra module combo that came with two receivers. I had too many models on 72 to convert all at once. So I continued to convert them over as the budget would allow. Most only needed 6 channels and if I remember correctly even the 6 and 7 channel Optima receivers were relatively inexpensive. Now with the Minima receivers that have dual antennas and price out about $40 retrofitting became very economical. I had purchased a second Spectra Module combo with the two receivers for my second Eclipse but never got around to installing it as I still had a goodly number of models on 72. I purchased the first Hitec Aurora 9 channel that became available at the hobby shop and within a year purchased the second one. One I use for gas/alcohol models the second for electric and indoor. The easy copy model feature and buddy box set up convinced me to purchase the second one. Now I have complete redundancy if something were happen like dropping the radio. I have never had any problems with the Hitec 2.4 system. It has worked flawlessly. I have always run Hyperion LiFe receiver packs at 6 volts and no regulator. I use the same system when I fly for the University of Windsor Aerodesign Team where the receiver is in close proximity to 20 plus lbs. of steel or lead payload with out any problems. I eventually passed on the two Eclipse radios with the 2.4 modules to others and they are still in use today.

    My very first 2.4 radio was an Airtronics I won at a scale competition and it also worked flawlessly. That experience in fact was what convinced me to move to 2.4. Since I was a diehard Hitec flyer I decided to stay with Hitec.
    Serving as a very active flying instructor for my club I have instructed on and test flown a lot of different brands that are available. Just about all of the problems I have encountered have been directly related to less than ideal installation practices. Every one of them including the Hobby King knock offs have performed as expected when installed and cared for properly.

    I have not tried Hobby Kings version of the Hitec Minima receiver as its cost is about 28 dollars. Add shipping and I would sooner pay $40 for an OEM receiver which I can pick up immediately from my local hobby shop.

    I love my Hitec equipment but had to learn to place my receivers where they are easily accessible as I make sure all my equipment is upgraded as the newest version comes available.

    Dennis Pratt

  25. #75

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    RE: New Radio Technology ????? HELP!

    Right, also 2.4 receivers are usually smaller than 72 Mhz , consequently they have much less inertia, which is good if crashed. Some of my receivers had survived whenever everything else is gone, which in long term could be cheaper to keep.


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