DX9 - are glitches possible?
12-17-2017, 05:55 PM
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DX9 - are glitches possible?
Hi,
I'm pretty new to the hobby and am wondering if I may have a radio problem, and have had a number of unexplained crashes.
A bit of background:
Radio, new Spektrum DX9 purchased june 201
Receivers - all Orange - mostly 9 channel models early on I was flying a radian and had no issues.
I then bought a number of other planes to advance.
The first was an Angel F3A (from Hobbyking) It was built, the setup checked by and a maiden arranged with a super experienced club member (ex airforce crash investigator)
He took it up all was going well for the first 60 seconds when he suddenly said he had no control and the plane dived straight down and was written off,
2 weeks later the same thing happened with another plane (Durafly Bravado) - same pilot
In each case the plane was flying new receivers, new batteries.
Everything went Ok for a while, then the same thing happened whilst I was flying a Waco - no control, spiral in to the ground - this time me flying - I had successfully flown it quite a few times....
At this time I completely lost confidence and gave up flying for 8 months or so.
I bought a new Radian, and this has flown perfectly every time - new model with pre fitted Spektrum RX.
A couple of weeks ago I bought a Night Walrus. First few flights were great, the one day complete loss of control for maybe 7 or 8 seconds. Got it down as control came back - height saved me.
Rechecked everything, moved antennas just in case. Flew for another week or so all great. This morning, Up I went, got some altitude and flew around, then a loss of control. Saved it, decided to bring it down, another loss of control, came back, saved it, then about 20 feet off the ground another loss of control &^*^^*^^*. Came back 3 feet of and I just managed to put it down without damage in some very long grass at end of the runway.
I always check the batteries, I always range test before a flight, and I always check controls are going the right way.
At this point I'm just about ready to give up and get a new hobby. I'm a retired pensioner and can't afford to have every plane crash on me. Yes I know they do for everyone, but not without explanation. I have some fabulous mentors who are stumped (crash investigator, ex national pylon racing champion etc.) These crashes are just going in to the too hard basket!!
Interestingly a friend who started flying using an old DX6 with which he never had a problem, has also lost 3 planes without explanation since he changed to a DX9.
I don't want to start a flame war - I'm just after answers/suggestions. Could there be some issue with the DX9, or with the Orange receivers?
cheers
Gary
I'm pretty new to the hobby and am wondering if I may have a radio problem, and have had a number of unexplained crashes.
A bit of background:
Radio, new Spektrum DX9 purchased june 201
Receivers - all Orange - mostly 9 channel models early on I was flying a radian and had no issues.
I then bought a number of other planes to advance.
The first was an Angel F3A (from Hobbyking) It was built, the setup checked by and a maiden arranged with a super experienced club member (ex airforce crash investigator)
He took it up all was going well for the first 60 seconds when he suddenly said he had no control and the plane dived straight down and was written off,
2 weeks later the same thing happened with another plane (Durafly Bravado) - same pilot
In each case the plane was flying new receivers, new batteries.
Everything went Ok for a while, then the same thing happened whilst I was flying a Waco - no control, spiral in to the ground - this time me flying - I had successfully flown it quite a few times....
At this time I completely lost confidence and gave up flying for 8 months or so.
I bought a new Radian, and this has flown perfectly every time - new model with pre fitted Spektrum RX.
A couple of weeks ago I bought a Night Walrus. First few flights were great, the one day complete loss of control for maybe 7 or 8 seconds. Got it down as control came back - height saved me.
Rechecked everything, moved antennas just in case. Flew for another week or so all great. This morning, Up I went, got some altitude and flew around, then a loss of control. Saved it, decided to bring it down, another loss of control, came back, saved it, then about 20 feet off the ground another loss of control &^*^^*^^*. Came back 3 feet of and I just managed to put it down without damage in some very long grass at end of the runway.
I always check the batteries, I always range test before a flight, and I always check controls are going the right way.
At this point I'm just about ready to give up and get a new hobby. I'm a retired pensioner and can't afford to have every plane crash on me. Yes I know they do for everyone, but not without explanation. I have some fabulous mentors who are stumped (crash investigator, ex national pylon racing champion etc.) These crashes are just going in to the too hard basket!!
Interestingly a friend who started flying using an old DX6 with which he never had a problem, has also lost 3 planes without explanation since he changed to a DX9.
I don't want to start a flame war - I'm just after answers/suggestions. Could there be some issue with the DX9, or with the Orange receivers?
cheers
Gary
Last edited by garymck; 12-17-2017 at 06:46 PM.
12-18-2017, 08:00 AM
#2
Gary, We all crash at one time or another and it's always hard to deal with.If you want to stick with the hobby I would like to advise you to upgrade your radio to something more reliable. I don't mean to start a radio war here so I will state a fact not an opinion. The guys I fly with and myself who have had the most success are using Futaba and that includes the servos. Dan.
12-18-2017, 09:08 AM
#3
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I have seen it explained that a boosted WiFi will blanket all of the 2.4 channels. This should effect all airplanes flying on 2.4 at the time. Many will tell you that the orange receivers are not as reliable as the Spektrum receivers. Also, make sure that you are using full range receivers, not the park flyer versions. If you are using park flyer receivers and there is a hot WiFi nearby, you wouldn't have much of a chance.
Last edited by jrf; 12-18-2017 at 03:55 PM.
12-18-2017, 10:35 AM
#4
It's possible someone near your field has a drone jammer. Have all these events occurred at the same field? Your club, if you have one, might want to invest in an RF detector.
12-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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Hi,
the incidents have occurred at 3 different fields, there seems to be no commonality. All receivers were new - never crashed/reused. in a couple of cases an expert pilot, new or near new batteries, no transmitters near by. I can accept a crash that is my fault, but loss of response to the radio killing planes is pretty hard to bare!!
I'm going out with the Walrus today, have changed receiver. So we'll see if it happens again.......
cheers
Gary
the incidents have occurred at 3 different fields, there seems to be no commonality. All receivers were new - never crashed/reused. in a couple of cases an expert pilot, new or near new batteries, no transmitters near by. I can accept a crash that is my fault, but loss of response to the radio killing planes is pretty hard to bare!!
I'm going out with the Walrus today, have changed receiver. So we'll see if it happens again.......
cheers
Gary
12-18-2017, 12:55 PM
#7
A common thread from what I'm reading might be the Orange receivers. I've never been a fan of them. Lemon is said to be much better, although I've only used Spektrum equipment myself. Never had as much as a glitch.. but this is using my DX7. I've now moved to the DX18, and have recently realized the benefits of telemetry.... and a benefit to you would be, you would possibly know where the culprit is that's creating your crashes.
There's a few devices I know of in the Spektrum world that would give you real time telemetry with your DX9, I doubt they're compatible with anything other then Spektrum equipment though. The first device would be a Spektrum brand telemetry receiver, which would give you data that will tell you how well your signal is being received.. in the context of "fades, holds, and frame losses".. for each satellite receiver in the plane. Another device is a Spektrum TM1000 that will equip most current non-telemetry Spektrum rx's for telemetry data.. and reads the same real time stats and data, and sends it back to the transmitter...as that's what telemetry is all about. There's a "flight-log" device too that stores data, and it runs soley through the receiver and can be left onboard the plane, or just plugged into the receiver to get data... which is again fades/holds/losses... only you have to have that flight-log device to retreive it after a flight.. it's not real-time data.. its more after the fact, but still could tell you how your system is performing.
I think there's even a screen within your transmitter that you can glean some data as far as signal performance as well...although I'm not familiar with the DX9 first hand, I believe there are many similarities in most modern Spektrum radios.. I'm just not sure exactly what they all are.. but they are formatted in much of the same way.
The fact that your Radian performed well would tell me right there where that problem might be originating. Satellite rx placement is ever important as well... and the antenna's must be placed in array, as many different directions as you can... but I'm not familiar with Orange enough to comment further.. nor did you mention anything about satellite rx's at all.
After loosing so many planes to what might be a signal loss though... I would change something for sure... and if you think the DX9 is a culprit send it in.. Since it flew the Radian fine though.. that would make me suspicious of the Orange rx's. Honestly I would start over with all Spektrum rx's, and use that telemetry you already have in the DX9... as that sounds cheaper at this point then loosing more planes. Good luck with it.
There's a few devices I know of in the Spektrum world that would give you real time telemetry with your DX9, I doubt they're compatible with anything other then Spektrum equipment though. The first device would be a Spektrum brand telemetry receiver, which would give you data that will tell you how well your signal is being received.. in the context of "fades, holds, and frame losses".. for each satellite receiver in the plane. Another device is a Spektrum TM1000 that will equip most current non-telemetry Spektrum rx's for telemetry data.. and reads the same real time stats and data, and sends it back to the transmitter...as that's what telemetry is all about. There's a "flight-log" device too that stores data, and it runs soley through the receiver and can be left onboard the plane, or just plugged into the receiver to get data... which is again fades/holds/losses... only you have to have that flight-log device to retreive it after a flight.. it's not real-time data.. its more after the fact, but still could tell you how your system is performing.
I think there's even a screen within your transmitter that you can glean some data as far as signal performance as well...although I'm not familiar with the DX9 first hand, I believe there are many similarities in most modern Spektrum radios.. I'm just not sure exactly what they all are.. but they are formatted in much of the same way.
The fact that your Radian performed well would tell me right there where that problem might be originating. Satellite rx placement is ever important as well... and the antenna's must be placed in array, as many different directions as you can... but I'm not familiar with Orange enough to comment further.. nor did you mention anything about satellite rx's at all.
After loosing so many planes to what might be a signal loss though... I would change something for sure... and if you think the DX9 is a culprit send it in.. Since it flew the Radian fine though.. that would make me suspicious of the Orange rx's. Honestly I would start over with all Spektrum rx's, and use that telemetry you already have in the DX9... as that sounds cheaper at this point then loosing more planes. Good luck with it.
Last edited by DGrant; 12-18-2017 at 12:58 PM.
12-18-2017, 01:02 PM
#8
In looking for some common factors, I see that all of your rx's appear to be knock off's of the Spektrum gear?
It would appear to me that all of the models in question are electric powered and most come with the electronics installed from primarily Hobby King?
You say that you're "pretty new to the hobby"?
Rather than jump on Dan's bandwagon of blaming the radio with nothing other than his own beliefs is not something you should just seize upon as the "fact" that he states he is relating due to his anecdotal "evidence" of what he's seen.
For new guys, and this was really exposed as a problem when the Spektrum radios came out for use with all models, not just Park Flyers. The issue was inadequate power systems shutting down the computerized rx's and it taking up to five seconds or so for the tx/rx to re-link. This problem was not and never has been a "lost bind" issue as lots of guys would say. Spektrum made some changes where the tx/rx would re-link in less than 1/2 second if the rx shut down due to a power issue. On landing, the lights on the rx would blink indicating a power loss rx shut down. Lots of people got surprised because what they'd been using all along with the 72MHz radios wasn't working. It didn't work in the 72MHz radios either, but after the rx shut down and the power came back on, the radios re-connected almost instantly. Most of the "I GOT HIT" shouts from the pilots' station were not in fact radio interference but power system issues.
Don't know if you're really interested, but that's some back ground on Spektrum and the reason for lots of folks popping off about it being unreliable. Spektrum now uses a DSMX RF format which fixed some actual RF issues, but eliminated the loss of power indication on the rx's.
So what's the point of all this? It is very easy to get, shall we say "lost in the woods" with this electrical stuff even if you are not new to the hobby. That is the common point I see in all the incidents. Component failures are not very common, but more frequent with off brand hardware. Battery issues can be very difficult to diagnose at times and if you're having these kinds of issues, just pulling an unloaded voltage check on the batteries may not be sufficient to see a problem. Next big issue is inexpensive ESC's will normally use linear regulators which reduce the LiPo voltage to something in the 5 VDC range. Linear means they use resistance to cut the voltage. This creates heat, heat and electronics do not get along well. The more cells (higher voltage) your flight packs have, the more heat generated reducing that power. Thus the warning that the number of servos you can use goes down as the voltage of the flight pack goes up. You get the BEC circuit of the ESC too hot and the resistance goes up, the output voltage goes down and the rx shuts off. ESC's with switching BEC's do not have this problem but they cost more.
Should you not trust the radio itself, Horizon will check it out, as well as any other hardware made by Spektrum, for free. All you need to do is pay for the shipping to Horizon and they will usually pay the return shipping. They will not check hardware/components not provided by Horizon.
Last suggestion is that you wander over to www.rcgroups.com as they are primarily an electrical powered model forum. Lots of folks there can help you diagnose electrical issues if there is nothing wrong with the tx.
Oh, I fly both Spektrum and Futaba on everything from tiny indoor stuff to turbine jets so I'm not biased toward one or the other.
It would appear to me that all of the models in question are electric powered and most come with the electronics installed from primarily Hobby King?
You say that you're "pretty new to the hobby"?
Rather than jump on Dan's bandwagon of blaming the radio with nothing other than his own beliefs is not something you should just seize upon as the "fact" that he states he is relating due to his anecdotal "evidence" of what he's seen.
For new guys, and this was really exposed as a problem when the Spektrum radios came out for use with all models, not just Park Flyers. The issue was inadequate power systems shutting down the computerized rx's and it taking up to five seconds or so for the tx/rx to re-link. This problem was not and never has been a "lost bind" issue as lots of guys would say. Spektrum made some changes where the tx/rx would re-link in less than 1/2 second if the rx shut down due to a power issue. On landing, the lights on the rx would blink indicating a power loss rx shut down. Lots of people got surprised because what they'd been using all along with the 72MHz radios wasn't working. It didn't work in the 72MHz radios either, but after the rx shut down and the power came back on, the radios re-connected almost instantly. Most of the "I GOT HIT" shouts from the pilots' station were not in fact radio interference but power system issues.
Don't know if you're really interested, but that's some back ground on Spektrum and the reason for lots of folks popping off about it being unreliable. Spektrum now uses a DSMX RF format which fixed some actual RF issues, but eliminated the loss of power indication on the rx's.
So what's the point of all this? It is very easy to get, shall we say "lost in the woods" with this electrical stuff even if you are not new to the hobby. That is the common point I see in all the incidents. Component failures are not very common, but more frequent with off brand hardware. Battery issues can be very difficult to diagnose at times and if you're having these kinds of issues, just pulling an unloaded voltage check on the batteries may not be sufficient to see a problem. Next big issue is inexpensive ESC's will normally use linear regulators which reduce the LiPo voltage to something in the 5 VDC range. Linear means they use resistance to cut the voltage. This creates heat, heat and electronics do not get along well. The more cells (higher voltage) your flight packs have, the more heat generated reducing that power. Thus the warning that the number of servos you can use goes down as the voltage of the flight pack goes up. You get the BEC circuit of the ESC too hot and the resistance goes up, the output voltage goes down and the rx shuts off. ESC's with switching BEC's do not have this problem but they cost more.
Should you not trust the radio itself, Horizon will check it out, as well as any other hardware made by Spektrum, for free. All you need to do is pay for the shipping to Horizon and they will usually pay the return shipping. They will not check hardware/components not provided by Horizon.
Last suggestion is that you wander over to www.rcgroups.com as they are primarily an electrical powered model forum. Lots of folks there can help you diagnose electrical issues if there is nothing wrong with the tx.
Oh, I fly both Spektrum and Futaba on everything from tiny indoor stuff to turbine jets so I'm not biased toward one or the other.
Last edited by Zeeb; 12-18-2017 at 01:07 PM.
12-20-2017, 11:41 AM
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and I have just fitted my first Lemon rx to try.....If this works OK I'll get rid of my Orange stuff. If I still get loss of control I'll dump Spektrum and change systems to Frsky. I simply can't afford the cost of genuine Spektrum stuff. I'm in Australia, and we don't have the same level of service as you lucky people in the US.....
cheers
Gary
cheers
Gary
12-20-2017, 11:46 AM
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If so it is likely that my friend who bought one not long after me also got a bad one as he has had similar experiences to me - as recently as a week ago he had a plane dive in out of control, and another develop a mind of it's own. In all cases these were using Orange RX's.... He's going to try Lemons as well (I gave him one of a couple I bought)...
I'll report back my experiences.
cheers
Gary
12-21-2017, 06:08 PM
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OK, had the first flight with a Lemon Rx in the Walrus that had previously had glitches. Flight went perfectly out as far as I could see. Happy with it so far. Then had a new Fun Cub fitted with a brand new Orange 9 Channel Rx. Di did a range test and experienced 30 holds at 20 meters. Did not fly it and am going to pull the orange Rx's out of the other planes I own.
cheers
Gary
cheers
Gary
12-21-2017, 08:46 PM
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Its showing up on the DX9's screen when I do the range test with dsmx rx's. I went home and range tested all my planes with Orange DSMX Rx's - some hadn't flown for over a year. 2 other RX's showed poor performance at 20 meters one had 130 f's and the other 433. There were no holds. 2 other planes were tested with Orange Rx's, and they showed zero f's
Looks like I copped a couple of dud Rx's... No more Oranges for me - unless I'm misinterpreting things here - possible as I'm not experienced...
cheers
Gary
Looks like I copped a couple of dud Rx's... No more Oranges for me - unless I'm misinterpreting things here - possible as I'm not experienced...
cheers
Gary
12-22-2017, 12:57 AM
#18
You're on the right track... I think the problem might have been the Orange receivers... Lemon is said to be much better. A fellow club member swears by them... and he flies expensive EDF jets. I've never seen him crash a plane in many years... I might try one someday too. They look affordable. We'll see.
Good luck with it.
Good luck with it.
01-05-2018, 02:38 PM
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further to this issue:
The same failures have now occurred using the Lemon rx's, and my one Spektrum genuine rx has now started to fail range tests. So now I have failures with 3 different brands of RX. The failures used to occur randomly, but now occur nearly every flight. After nearly losing a glider with me on the controls, and then the most experienced member of my club nearly losing it on the next flight with total loss of control, I'm convinced it is the Tx, so I'm going to bin it. I could not on sell it with a clear conscience. I rang the Australian distributors to enquire about testing and repair, gave them the full story, that it appeared faulty from new, but was 6 months out of warranty. It would have cost me $50 freight both ways, $35 for them to test the radio, and up to $160-$180 for the repair. This is approaching half what I paid for the radio, and more than it would cost to buy another brand (FRSky) new Tx. I think you can guess which option I'm taking. Will be a pricey process replacing all my Rx's, but I no longer trust the Spektrum line of equipment. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
My one real regret is that since I started flying 18 months ago, I always assumed I was a crap pilot and was crashing planes due to my poor skills (despite 2 planes being lost on their maidens with someone else being at the controls). I should have suspected the Tx earlier and gotten it fixed whilst still under warranty. I have a tendency to always assume I ****** up :-) rather than having equipment problems.
cheers
Gary
The same failures have now occurred using the Lemon rx's, and my one Spektrum genuine rx has now started to fail range tests. So now I have failures with 3 different brands of RX. The failures used to occur randomly, but now occur nearly every flight. After nearly losing a glider with me on the controls, and then the most experienced member of my club nearly losing it on the next flight with total loss of control, I'm convinced it is the Tx, so I'm going to bin it. I could not on sell it with a clear conscience. I rang the Australian distributors to enquire about testing and repair, gave them the full story, that it appeared faulty from new, but was 6 months out of warranty. It would have cost me $50 freight both ways, $35 for them to test the radio, and up to $160-$180 for the repair. This is approaching half what I paid for the radio, and more than it would cost to buy another brand (FRSky) new Tx. I think you can guess which option I'm taking. Will be a pricey process replacing all my Rx's, but I no longer trust the Spektrum line of equipment. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.
My one real regret is that since I started flying 18 months ago, I always assumed I was a crap pilot and was crashing planes due to my poor skills (despite 2 planes being lost on their maidens with someone else being at the controls). I should have suspected the Tx earlier and gotten it fixed whilst still under warranty. I have a tendency to always assume I ****** up :-) rather than having equipment problems.
cheers
Gary
01-08-2018, 06:37 AM
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01-15-2018, 12:06 PM
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Is there really that much saving from using one of these cloned receivers (Lemon, Orange) that you would be willing to risk your whole model? Besides the cost of the model, what about all the time spent putting it together (if an ARF), setting up and tuning to get it flying just right? I don't think I could put a price on the time I spend doing that. Perhaps for a foamy type model it makes sense.
