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Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

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Old 01-20-2004, 09:52 PM
  #126  
mr_matt
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

I don't get it, the rules says not to change any of the internal parts. To get to the crystal you pry off a panel, thereby GAINING ACCESS TO THE INTERNAL PARTS and then change the crystal. This is most defintiely against the regulations.

Most people (like 99.999%) like to avoid breaking laws and try to understand them, they do not go out and decide to make test cases out of themselves. I think threads like these do a disservice to the newbies in the hobby by trying to confuse what is a very simple issue.

I have already said there may be NO CASES ON RECORD. Granted. There may be hundreds of FCC regulations being broken EVERY DAY. Granted. That DOES NOT make these rules and regulations null and void.
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Old 01-20-2004, 10:58 PM
  #127  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

I don't get it, the rules says not to change any of the internal parts. To get to the crystal you pry off a panel, thereby GAINING ACCESS TO THE INTERNAL PARTS and then change the crystal. This is most defintiely against the regulations.
The crystal on my old transmitters are protected by a plastic dust cover. The obvious purpose of the cover to a reasonable person is that it protects the crystal from dirt and allows the "end-user" to change it WITHOUT removing screws and going inside the transmitters internal components. In fact, I have an old Cirrus Tx, circa 1976 (I believe OME from Futuba), where you must in fact, open up the back of the transmitter to get to the crystal. The original Futuba design must have been improved to allow easier access to this user component.

It is on the front of the transmitter where all the other "user" switches, buttons and other user access points exist. It is not glued in and doesn't require any special "prying" equipment to remove. It comes off with your fingers (you don't even need to use your finger nails most of the time) and takes a little less force to remove than holding back the training switch and the other user definable features of the radio. Underneath this front dust protector, you gain access to the crystal only....NO OTHER internal components or RF circuitary is accessible. The crystal can be pulled out with your finger tips. A new crystal can be inserted and the crystal cover clips back on in the exact same fashion.

Now, if the cover was metal and had screws and required a screwdriver to remove....then maybe your would have a point. The cost of Futuba to make the cover out of metal and manufacture it at the same time and fashion screws would be nearly equivalent to the special injection molding process required to make this special plastic cover. So the only obvious reason to make this out of plastic is to make it even easier to get to this crystal without even so much as a screwdriver.
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:27 PM
  #128  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

So since Futaba does not do a better job of keeping you from breaking the law, then you are not repsonsible for your actions??
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Old 01-21-2004, 07:49 AM
  #129  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Civil recourse and ILLEGALITY are TWO DIFFERENT things
Only when the courts haven't ruled. The courts have ruled time and time again that selling a product to an end user that is illegal for the end user to use, even when not written in criminal code, is illegal and the seller bears liability.
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:09 AM
  #130  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The courts have ruled time and time again that selling a product to an end user that is illegal for the end user to use, even when not written in criminal code, is illegal and the seller bears liability.

So let me get this straight. Someone sells you pot, you smoke it.....


You did not break the law??
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:38 AM
  #131  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Mr. Matt. I am argueing that selling the crystals may be illegal. You are trying to make the opposite argument? What you say doesn't seem to have anything to do with the arguement.
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:51 AM
  #132  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

The original point I made was that swapping crystals is not legal. At first, some would say "there is no law" or "it is not illegal".

Now the arguements against my point have turrned into variations of "the devil made me do it"

My point is, even if "the devil made you do it" it is still not legal.

People sell TONS of illegal transmition equipment on ebay all of the time...video transmitters, amplifiers, stuff that basically has no legal use, strictly designed to violate FCC regulations.

That does NOT make it OK to use the stuff.

I am not condoning anything Futaba does. Maybe the rest of them do the same thing or soemthing different. I really could care less.

The point is, the end user must not go into the radio and change the crystal. That is against the Code of Federal Regualations. If you want to break the law, just admit you are breaking the law, but don't try to convince newbies that it is NOT breaking the law.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:12 AM
  #133  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

You know, while I don't think its against the law, its obviously no biggie since there doesn't seem to be any real complaints that we are interfering on the adjacent bands. I think the arguement was that Futaba wouldn't take the libility of selling the crystals if they truely thought it was against the law and a problem. They have another supply chain for the radio service technicians, so there is no need to sell crystals to the hobby store for their use. Individuals sell illegal stuff all the time, no one is going to sue them for billions of dollars.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:22 AM
  #134  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

It is not illegal by the regs you cite....thats for sure. I've laid out quite a few arguments that you and the entire FCC office would have one hell've time defeating....and I guarantee you in front of a Jury....YOU WILL Loose. Because I will have the Tx in front of the Jury for them to see.

It is, however, illegal if you operate a R/C transmitter that deviates by I think .001 or .002 (can't remember now the exact number) from its assigned frequency. Changing the crystal creates band broadening so it may do that or it may not....
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Old 01-21-2004, 12:31 PM
  #135  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Look IMO the bottom line is this. If Futaba, Hitec or etc sells the crystals it is the same as purposely thwarting the law, in order I suppose to make money. Also IMO if the FCC wanted to stop this they would have put a stop to it when the radios changed in 1991. I didn't enter the hobby till 1988 but all the radios I bought back then had removable crystals. Seems to me the FCC doesn't really care to stop this HUGE problem.[:-] So if they don't care why should we!
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Old 01-21-2004, 03:12 PM
  #136  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Hmm, I'm thinking they don't care...because Futuba found that all they had to do is cut the Frequency range in half and create a low and high band, then middle tune their TX for each band and they could successfully meet the FCC's tolerance ranges and the output power was not severly affected enough to effect radio performance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:15 PM
  #137  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The courts have ruled time and time again that selling a product to an end user that is illegal for the end user to use, even when not written in criminal code, is illegal and the seller bears liability.
Now it's your turn to prove your seemingly false statement (I'll bet you don't). In many states (and provinces) it is legal to sell a radar detector, but illegal to use it. If caught using it (in those states / provinces), it is the USER who is breaking the law, and as such, it is the user who faces the fine.

The issue of selling Tx crystals is the same way. It is legal to sell them, but ILLEGAL for the end user to swap them (unless they are appropriately certified / certificated).
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:22 PM
  #138  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: 2MuchThrow
It is, however, illegal if you operate a R/C transmitter that deviates by I think .001 or .002 (can't remember now the exact number) from its assigned frequency. Changing the crystal creates band broadening so it may do that or it may not....
You've hit the nail on the head here... The average user does not have the equipment to verify that their radio is still within specifications, so the law was written to reduce the possibilty. When a certified / certificated service person changes the crystal, they check to ensure it is sufficiantly in tune, and if it isn't, they re-tune it (preffered), or they try again with another crystal.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:04 PM
  #139  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

[quote]ORIGINAL: strato911

The issue of selling Tx crystals is the same way. It is legal to sell them, but ILLEGAL for the end user to swap them (unless they are appropriately certified / certificated).
Nope, the regs via section § 95.645 are a lot clearer on the issue that manufactures MUST control accessibility to the frequency determining components of a TX and must NOT make Plug-in crystals accessible to the user.

People often use that section, which is specific to manufacturers, and reinterpret that to end-users to say they are not allowed to remove plug-in crystals.

It all boils down to whether removing the crystal from the front where all the buttons are without the use of special tools is an internal modification!

And no jury in the world is going to convict someone for removing a plastic dust hatch with their finger tips when it is located in an easily accessible location on the front of a TX with all the other buttons and knobs. Its just a fact Jack. A judge and jury will determine that an internal modification is one that requires a screwdriver or other "mechanical" device that differentiates what is ordinary and expected from an end-user from a person demonstrating technical proficiency. People on juries know what "internal" is....its where all the wires, dodads, and solder stuff is.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:22 PM
  #140  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

For God's sake!
Ferrari sells a car that can travel in excess of 200 miles an hour.Obviously that means that the speed limit CANNOT be anything les than 200 miles an hour.Any reasonable person can clearly see that,if you simply push the gas pedal down the car goes faster.The manufacturer must have meant for you to push it farther.And,it Can't possibly be illegal to drive at 200 miles an hour.

The people who posted the speed limit signs are wrong! They just don't understand the issue!!
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:27 PM
  #141  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

And the cop that gives you a speeding ticket is an idiot.Any judge and jury can clearly see that,if just pushing a little harder make it go faster,it can't be illegal.It's not like you needed a screwdriver or something "Mechanical"!
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:36 PM
  #142  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

And no jury in the world is going to convict someone for pushing a gas pedal with their foot when it is located in an easily accessible location right under your foot with all the other pedals. Its just a fact Jack.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:48 PM
  #143  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Just for the record:

The regulations do NOT state that you cannot remove the crystal from a transmitter!Nor do they state that you cannot put a different crystal in it's place!

They Do state that if you replace the crystal with a different one,you "void your authority to operate" the transmitter!
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:59 AM
  #144  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

lol..


KB9STD...is really Howard Dean's alias.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:10 PM
  #145  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Please understand, people, that this is currently a non-issue for the FCC. How about a closely related example of when the FCC does care? Back in 1997 when FRS radios started turning up, a few manufacturers included externally-removable antennas on their radios. It was determined that this was in conflict with the FCC regs and the manufacturers were forced to use only non-detachable antennas. (or no type acceptance!) Now you WILL NOT find newly manufactured FRS radios with detachable antennas. Or how about the Audiovox GPS/GMRS radio that came out a couple of years ago (not talking about the Garmin version here). A group of concerned GMRS users pointed out to the FCC that data transmission were not allowed on GMRS frequencies. Audiovox was promptly forced to discontinue sales of the radio.

When the FCC feels that something is not in compliance with their regulations, they withdraw their type acceptance, forcing the manufacturer comply. If they told futaba that their externally mounted xtal was jeopardizing their type acceptance I guarantee Futaba would find a way to comply. It wouldn't break their back to hard-mount the xtal on the PCB and cover it up with a tab.

The truth is that the FCC does not see user-changeable xtals as a violation of their regulations or they would have stopped granting type acceptances long ago.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:47 PM
  #146  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: quemazon

The truth is that the FCC does not see user-changeable xtals as a violation of their regulations or they would have stopped granting type acceptances long ago.
OMG...the voice of reason. Listening to Howard Dean freaking-out was more fun

Futuba needs to get the Frequency Synth out and obsolete these old Tx...so we can be done with this issue once and for all.
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Old 01-22-2004, 06:14 PM
  #147  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

ORIGINAL: 2MuchThrow
Futuba needs to get the Frequency Synth out and obsolete these old Tx...so we can be done with this issue once and for all.
I would love to see everything go synth, but I'm afraid xtals and modules are to Futaba/Hitech/etc. as inkjet cartridges are to HP/Epson. They help maintain the profits after the initial sale of equipment. $25 for an xtal pair? I doubt they cost even a couple of dollars to make. I bet they make more money off each xtal sale than from rf modules.

Why has Futaba been so reluctant go with PLL synthesis? They could have been doing it back in the 80's if they wanted. They just don't want to let go of their xtal market. Hitec has been selling synth modules for a while, but they don't sell dual conversion xtals to compete with.
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:08 PM
  #148  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Well not for profit sake. I'm sure the TX crystal retuning business is even better than the crystal sales... I was thing so they can put this stupid issue to bed....it really should be bad PR for them. And, I'm sure they lost sales to Hitec over it.

Heck I don't even know why we have to have crystals in our receivers. I've got a perfectly good receiver in my car that I can tune to any station I want. All I need on my airplane receivers is a knob and a place to plug in a black box with a signal strength meter for goodness sakes !!!
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Old 01-24-2004, 12:16 AM
  #149  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

I am not sure if it is illegal or not but I know it is not recomended. However, for two years I have been flying one module tuned for 45 on 54 as well. I have never had a problem, I have probobly swapped that crystal in and out 1000 times. But now that I am moving into more expensive planes I am buyig two new modules tuned to the channels I like to fly and will swipe modules not cyrstals.
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Old 01-24-2004, 01:57 AM
  #150  
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Default RE: Ever had a problem when swapping crystals?

Glen Merritt , thanks for finally getting to the punch line. For a second there I thought I was crazy after reading numerous times in all of my airplane manuals, IT IS ILLEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES TO CHANGE OR ALTER ANY COMPONENT IN A TRANSMITTER. .............but just one question ? why do hobby shops sell crystals to the end users if the end users cannot legally change the crystal. Why not just sell them to certified technicians that can tune them properly at the time of swapping them. Oh yea one more question , Whats with dual conversion crystals , I think I understand single conversion (swap the crystal on the receiver ) ? but dual involves both receiver and transmitter. Oh well and also if I change the crystal on a receiver to match my transmitter should it get tunned again ?
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