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Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

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Old 04-29-2004, 12:52 AM
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Silent-AV8R
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Default Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that only the person actually licensed as a ham operator can fly an RC plane on a ham band frequency.

Does anyone recall a link to that information??


As I remeber it third-party operations cover only two-way communications and that the idea of third-party traffic does not apply to remote control of models (as the FCC calls it).

I have searched the FCC and ARRL websites without any real luck. As I recall you have to piece together three differnt parts of the Part 97 regs covering ham radio operation to get to the bottom of it all.

Anyone have any help??

Thanks

Bill
WH6QB
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Old 04-29-2004, 06:11 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I don't recall any reg like that, and in fact, I think the reg that applies is the one where a non-Ham can operate a Ham radio but ONLY if a Ham is with him. Since that's the exact situation you would have if you use a buddy box with your TX, or even if you hand your TX to your buddy, I don't think you'd have a problem if some kind of insurance claim arose any different than if a 72mhz flyer got in the same trouble.
What you CAN'T do, according to the same reg, is to borrow your Ham TX to someone else who isn't a Ham and let him use it while you aren't there.

Highflight
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:15 AM
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Dsegal
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

If my memory serves correctly a columnist for a modeling magazine, who is an electronics professional, has written that it is not legal for him to hand his ham-band TX to another person even if he is standing by. He then bought a 72mhz system just to allow bystanders to have a chance to try RC flying. Sorry, but I cannot find the documentation for this, but perhaps someone else can.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:17 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Dave is right. The FCC did determine that the third party rule is for two way communications only. You can allow a non-licensed person to talk, or even send morse code if they know how, use RTTY or a PC, as long as the licensed operator is there to monitor the communication. When you hand off an RC transmitter to someone else you, the licenesed operator, are not in control.

Rich
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:42 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Well, that sure does add one MORE reason that even though I got my Ham ticket 15 years ago, I never did feel the need to go to any Ham band R/C equipment.

That's a stupid rule, not because of the rule itself, but because it is in direct contradiction to accepted R/C operations on 72mhz by non-Ham users.
If you read this correctly, you can have two identical accidents under the same circumstances (radio hand-over to another pilot), but you will be insured by the AMA on the 72mhz accident but denied insurance coverage on the Ham band accident because of a rule "violation".

Did I mention that this was a stupid rule?

Highflight
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:35 AM
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Silent-AV8R
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I more or less knew the answer to this when I posted. I was hoping some one had a link to a site I recall seeing a couple of years ago that cited the interpretation of the regs.

However, I did ask the AMA for a clarification and they responded that a licensed Ham operator is NOT allowed to let another, unlicensed pilot, fly the licensed person's plane. To do so violates both the FCC regulations and the AMA Safety Code and jeopardizes your insurance coverage. That is directly from Steve Kaluf, AMA Technical Director.

The comment above about two-way communication versus one-way telecommand is right on the money. Third-party rules only apply to two-way communications and NOT to one-way telecommand (like RC planes.)

Bill Malvey
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:40 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

OK, here is where the head scratching may come in. What about with a buddy box setup? The actual radiating transmitter is still physically in control of the HAM, and he has total override capability of the non-ham through the radio's trainer function. True, the non-ham is flying the aircraft, but the non-ham is NOT in control of the actual transmitter . . . . aor even holding one, for that matter . . . .

??????

- Tim
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:28 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

The intrupretation was related to one-way versus two-way communications. It did not matter if a buddy box was in use or not. A non licensed person cannot operate an RC device controlled by a Ham band transmitter.

Rich
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Old 04-29-2004, 01:32 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I would let him fly via my buddy box. I am also sure no one at my field would mind if he was licensed or not as long as I had my license. I would be more concerned when you go over the posted speed limit by 5 MPH. That would be something to worry about

WB6JET
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Old 04-29-2004, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

ORIGINAL: Bob_Wilcox

I would let him fly via my buddy box. I am also sure no one at my field would mind if he was licensed or not as long as I had my license. I would be more concerned when you go over the posted speed limit by 5 MPH. That would be something to worry about

WB6JET
And here's the problem. If there is an accident while you are doing this you will likely not be covered by the AMA insurance. Nor will your club or the property owner. So while you may get away with it and it does not pose a significant and immediate risk, it still has potential problems. Why risk that and your ticket??

Bill
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Old 04-29-2004, 04:51 PM
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The PIPE
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Default The "Ain't I a STINKER rule"...

Dear Highflight-RCU:

The PIPE Here yet AGAIN...and YEP, that's the old "Ain't I A Stinker" rule the FCC placed in effect a LONG time (20+ YEARS) ago!!!

What I've done to allow MYSELF to eventually do buddy box flying...with my two (one completed, one to be started this Summer) NEW, built-by-MYSELF MicroStar single stick "knobby" radios, which ARE on the 50 MHz band, is to set them up with DUAL RF decks...one EACH on 50 AND 72 MHz per transmitter!

I've got three FMA-made retrofit FM RF decks already for my MicroStars, with two of them on 50 MHz (Ch.03 and Ch.07) for my OWN flying needs, and one on 72 MHz Ch.47 to go into my currently usable FIRST one to prepare to avoid the "Stinker" rule in the future. I'm ALSO planning to get a Jensen RF deck (they're really the FMA units, but NOW available through Marv Jensen) later this year on Ch.49 to set up the SECOND MicroStar "knobby box" with a 72 MHz RF deck of ITS own! The eventual setup will have BOTH MicroStar radios set up with two bands each, and with two receivers on each 50 and 72 MHz frequency that will give me a total of EIGHT receivers to use with my current (and also restorable 1980s vintage) planes, AND with those I'll be building in the coming years.

Just to keep things from being "TOO questionable" with contest directors concerning my MicroStars, ALL the RF decks will be "gold-sticker" checked for narrowband operation, as the Ch.03 has been already on my first MicroStar, and I'll use ONLY the 50 MHz decks in my MicroStars at fly-ins and events AWAY from my home field...the 72 MHz decks are best used for "home field operations" during regular sport flying sessions, along with normal home field 50 MHz flying.

I AM hoping that SOMEDAY the "Stinker" rule WILL be repealed [IMG]http://smilies.********.org/contrib/tweetz/nod.gif[/IMG] for Hams, as long as the Ham operator IS operating the "Teacher" transmitter as the "Primary Control Operator"...but UNTIL then, the pair of 72 MHz decks (ONE in each transmitter) that will be in my first two MicroStars will be ready and able, if it's ever needed, to show newcomers to RC flying how NICE flying "knobby" single stick transmitters can be with a bit of "buddy-boxing" with those two new knobby radios of mine, when I'm ready to do it at events like my club's open house some year in the future...I've STILL got to build up the second one!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:02 PM
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Bob_Wilcox
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Default RE: The "Ain't I a STINKER rule"...

I totally agree with you Pipe!!! I am impressed the extent you went to to side step that rule

I also think if there was an accident with a buddy box, it would be very easy to prove that it had nothing to do with this rule. For the AMA to prove it was negligence because of it being on 6 meters with a non-license operator on the buddy box, GOOD LUCK!!! Do you think if there was an accident and you did not have your name in the plane, you would not be insured? Come on! I am not advocating breaking every ticky-tack rule but this one of the FCC's is ridiculous when applied to R/C modeling!


WB6JET
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:36 PM
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The PIPE
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Default BY THE WAY...

Dear Bob Wilcox:

The PIPE here again BRIEFLY before "hitting the hay"...

...since I had been a Tech class Ham licensee since 1978, and HAD THE MORSE CODE and General class Ham license written test credits from that LONG ago era, I headed to the most recent VE exam session of the ham club you can spot at http://www.norwood-arc.org/ ...on the evening of TAX DAY 2004...and got a "paper UPGRADE" at LAST to a General class Ham license!

The paper license arrived in the mail last week...I've GOT to SCAN it into my hard disk Friday night this week...and get laser copies made up and LAMINATED in clear plastic (of the smaller 'wallet sized license') to stick INSIDE the rear cover of ALL my upcoming MicroStar knobby radios!

Then NO ONE can say "that I left MY Ham license at home again"...and now as a GENERAL Class Ham !!!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:41 PM
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iflyj3
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

ORIGINAL: aresti2004

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that only the person actually licensed as a ham operator can fly an RC plane on a ham band frequency.

Does anyone recall a link to that information??

BIG SNIP

Thanks

Bill
WH6QB
Here you are .................................................. .......

Subject: Re: 50 MHz Radios???
From: Terry Lee <Leeterrym@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:14:23 -0500

Hi Mark,

Here is a copy of the information I received from the ARRL on this matter:

"Here is the discussion on this topic taken from the latest edition of the
ARRL's FCC Rule Book:

"Telecommand of Model Craft
Amateurs are also permitted to use radio links to control "model craft,"
such as model airplanes and boats. Certain restrictions apply [97.215] on
this kind of operation:
o Station identification is not required for transmission directed only to
the model craft. The control transmitter must bear a label indicating the
station's call sign and the licensee's name and address [97.215(a)].
o Control signals are not considered codes and ciphers [97.215(b)].
o Transmitter power cannot exceed 1 W [97.215(c)].
o Only licensed amateurs may operate telecommand transmitters using amateur
frequencies.
While unlicensed persons may participate as "third parties" in most amateur
operations, they may not participate in telecommand operation. This is true
even when a licensed amateur is closely supervising the operation. The FCC
has said that the one-way transmissions involved in telecommand do not
constitute third-party messages exchanged between control operators.
Nonamateurs must use equipment and frequencies in the Radio Control Service.
If licensed amateurs wish to use amateur equipment and frequencies for model
telecommand, it is their responsibility to be sure that they can safely
operate the equipment while observing the FCC's Rules."

73,
Tom Hogerty, KC1J
Field & Educational Services
Phone: 860-594-0323
FAX: 860-594-0259
E-Mail: kc1j@arrl.org"

Terry, N1OZJ
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:25 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Hmmm... and I've been contemplating switching to 50 mHz.

I do a lot of training/buddy-boxing. Guess I'll need to keep the 72 mHz TX module and a couple of 72 mHz RXs for the trainer, eh?[&o]


.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:34 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I (briefly) thought about going with Ham band equipment, however, I came up with lots of reasons NOT to and no really good reasons to do it.
Read through this short thread, and check out my post as well as others on the pros/cons of Ham R/C.
I'd be interested to know what YOU think is an advantage to Ham R/C after you've reviewed that thread.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_97.../tm.htm#979393

Highflight


ORIGINAL: Steve Campbell

Hmmm... and I've been contemplating switching to 50 mHz.

I do a lot of training/buddy-boxing. Guess I'll need to keep the 72 mHz TX module and a couple of 72 mHz RXs for the trainer, eh?[&o
.
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Old 04-30-2004, 09:37 AM
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Default RE: The "Ain't I a STINKER rule"...

ORIGINAL: Bob_Wilcox



I also think if there was an accident with a buddy box, it would be very easy to prove that it had nothing to do with this rule. For the AMA to prove it was negligence because of it being on 6 meters with a non-license operator on the buddy box, GOOD LUCK!!!
WB6JET
That is not the point. The point is that you were not in compliance with the Safety Code, not whether or not the use of 6-meters was a factor in the incident.

What amazes me is after working so hard to earn their ticket how willing people are to let others share the fruits of that labor while at the same time jeopardizing that very same ticket and their insurance coverage.

Interesting.

Bill WH6QB
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Old 04-30-2004, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

ORIGINAL: iflyj3


Here you are .................................................. .......

Subject: Re: 50 MHz Radios???
From: Terry Lee <Leeterrym@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:14:23 -0500

Hi Mark,

Here is a copy of the information I received from the ARRL on this matter:

"Here is the discussion on this topic taken from the latest edition of the
ARRL's FCC Rule Book:

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks.

Bill
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

HighFlight,

Interesting discussion. Can you expand on the assertion that ham transceiver operators are "free to operate on bands reserved for R/C"? I know that's a paraphrase; but I was told that the 50 MHZ channels 50.800 to 50.980 were reserved exclusively for R/C?

If not, then I agree that the conversion is pointless for me. The whole idea is to prevent getting shot down by some brainless moron. Getting shot down by someone in Peoria, while he was trying to talk to Alpha Centauri or wherever, would be equally annoying.

.
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Old 04-30-2004, 11:34 AM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

If you stay on the 50 mhz portion (channels 00-09) of the band you will not have a problem. In some areas of the country you can have a problem on the 53 mhz portion from repeaters. I have been flying on 50 mhz since 1957 and have never been hit by any interference.

Most Hams have their license for more than RC operation. It's just a plus for us to have use of 6 meters for RC also.

Rich
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

ORIGINAL: staggerwing

If you stay on the 50 mhz portion (channels 00-09) of the band you will not have a problem. In some areas of the country you can have a problem on the 53 mhz portion from repeaters. I have been flying on 50 mhz since 1957 and have never been hit by any interference.

Most Hams have their license for more than RC operation. It's just a plus for us to have use of 6 meters for RC also.

Rich
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I have been on 6 for years and have not had any problems with interference from other transmitters. I can't say the same about the ones on 72 MHz. The R/C frequencies on 6 meters are the ARRL band plan and yes others could use them. However, why would one want to call CQ on the R/C frequencies when he knows no other ham is going to be listening? His objective is to talk to someone!

I think that anyone that questions the 6 meter operation should not use it. Me, trying to convince anyone to fly on the ham bands is self defeating. Therefore, please stay on 72 MHz.
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Well, that's real helpful.

I don't need convincing, pal. I just have a few questions...

Thanks, staggerwing. That's useful info. This "ticket" will be strictly for R/C. I've spent the last 33 years (8 in the military, 25 in law enforcement) talking on one sort of radio or another. The thrill, as they say, is gone...

.
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Old 04-30-2004, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Kinda of like flying RC, for me--even after a number of years as a Marine operator on number of different kinds of vessels--I still love CW and DX. Both passtimes have stayed with me when others have faded.

I must admit that I miss my 100 watt ARC 5 on 6 meters that I started RC with. Guess it was a little overkill for rudder only

Rich
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Old 04-30-2004, 03:25 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

I fly on 6 meters and 72mHz. The only time I wouldn't fly on 6 meters is during the VHF contest. During the contest I have heard all sorts of activity on our flying frequencies on 6 meters. And some of these guys are not running QRP.

Pete
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Old 04-30-2004, 04:08 PM
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Default RE: Ham Band - OK to let others fly??

Okay; I assume the "VHF contest" is a ham thing? And what is QRP?

Enlighten me, please.

.
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