snsmith

My Feedback: (5)

I know, I know, this has been discussed in various other threads and I've searched back through the board, but I never really found the answer I was looking for. But, I have the money and am ready to make the leap and just can't decide between the Futaba 9Z and JR 10X. I've been a Futaba guy since I started several years ago...I have a couple of their low end radios and have been using an 8U for the past few years, but switching to JR is certainly not out of the question. I simply want the best radio in terms of features, performance, quality, durability, ergonomics, feel, ease of use, etc...the whole package.

So, what should I buy and why? Help me decide!

Some notes before you vote:
- Already having Futaba gear isn't a gating item...I've been hedging by putting Hitec shift-selectable receivers in a number of my planes already. I only have two honest-to-goodness Futaba receivers now that I think about it...
- Being a professional geek, er...engineer, ease of programming isn't a strong motivator, although being tedious to program is a de-motivator.
- Flying helis and sailplanes is a non-factor...I only fly planes and don't have any interest in helis or gliders.
- No Multiplex or Hitec, please...I've narrowed my choices to these two. Thanks!

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide!

PHILLCO

My Feedback: (6)

THIS IS A TUFF QUESTION. THEY ARE BOTH GREAT RADIOS. BUT I WOULD RECOMMEND THE JR. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE FUTABA RECEIVER'S YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH FUTABA SO YOU CAN USE WHAT YOU HAVE.
I AM SURE THE REPLY'S YOU WILL GET WILL JUST MAKE THIS MORE DIFFICULT.
GO WITH YOUR GUT FEELINGS.

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

For all out functionality, the 9Z can't be touched by the JR. But it really depends upon what you're looking to do with the radio. If you're mostly flying sport planes, then the difference in features is a non-starter.

If, however, you're looking to fly complex models where the ability to have 8 nearly complete separate setups per model memory, and the ability to be flexible on where/how your programming is assigned to create unusual combinations, then the JR will not give you the flexibility you need.

I'd suggest downloading hte 'getting to know the 9Z guide' at http://www.futaba-rc.com/manuals/index.html. It will give you some good insight into the radio and its flexibility and power. This may help you decide if it is more than you need or just what you're looking for.

visioneer_one

My Feedback: (506)

I fly power planes, sailplanes and helis and have a TX dedicated to each type. 2 10Xs and 1 Stylus. If I'd not already had +10 different models set up with JR gear at the time that I was upgrading transmitters I'd have gone w/ a 9Z simply to cut down on the clutter!

That new MPX Royal Evo has my attention as a replacement for the above three. It's got one of the features I like about the 9Z - yuo can assign any function to any switch or rx channel.

Case in point. I have a GP PT-19 in the build queue. This will be a six-channel plane, as I'll be using dual elevator servos in it. (Throt/Ail1/Ail2/Elev1/Elev2/Rudd) With my 10X you have to use certain rx channels for certain functions. With dual elevator servos the left elevator servo has to be plugged into rx channel #8. This means that even though there will only be six servos in this bird I'll have to buy another 8+ channel receiver rather than using one of the many (!) JR 6-channel ones I have on hand.

Too bad the Evo is probably nine months away from being available in the US.

woodscra

My Feedback: (23)

I will chime in. I owned an 8103 and then went to a 9Z WC II which I currently own. I too have recently been dabating the change. This is MY OPINION ONLY.

10x GOOD
The 10x is lighter
more comfortable grip
the timer beep is louder (important to me). And the timer gives 3 beeps when 30 seconds are left.
Antenna can be easily replaced.
excellent manual
Programming is more straight-forward

BAD
its programming flexibility is limited, manageable, but limited.
numbered Menu system
No synthesizer offered for a $750 radio
Only planes - regardless that you don't want heli's, for $750 include the freaking software for it so those that do want it get their money's worth.

9Z GOOD
The 9Z I can put what I want on whatever switch I want
I like the TX synthesizer so I can turn on the TX without transmitting and change frequency.
I like push buttons as opposed to screen smudges (not a big deal really).
I like the menu system rather than memorizing numbers as in the 10x
Programming is flexible

BAD
The manual is junk, I have not referenced it since it confuses you rather than helps.
Programming can be very confusing sometimes
Heavy
less comfortable grip
Antenna cannot be replaced by yourself, entire TX must be sent in
The timer beep at each minute is nearly inaudible.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Just one little correction.

The above statement about the antenna is incorrect, it can be removed by removing the hex screw from inside the battery case. This will allow removal of the antenna without disassembly. You must however be ultra careful that the cap screw does not fall into the TX while doing this or you will have to take it apart. Its not hard to do you just need to be a little carefull.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I have both the 9Z and the 10X. I'll be getting rid of the 9Z as soon as I crash or sell the plane that it's in, because I prefer the 10X.

The 9Z is certainly a very capable radio - it's just not for me. There's nothing hugely wrong with it - just a whole load of little "nigglies" that combined to convince me (and a couple of my friends) to ditch the 9Z and move on to JR or Graupner. Conversely, some of my flying buddies love the 9Z so much that I could swear they sleep with their TX by their side.

You will find some people who love the 10X and hate the 9Z, some who love the 9Z and hate the 10X, and others who are equally happy with both. My suggestion would be to listed to all input whilst acknowledging that it may be biased (due to personal agendas, reps etc.), and then make your OWN decision, rather than just listening to whichever camp is loudest. ;-)
That goes for my input too - take it all with a pinch of salt.

Once upon a time I had a doc that I put together comparing the radios, but I'm not sure what I did with it. I'll post some stuff here from memory, but it won't be complete... these points are based on 2+ year old radios, so there's a chance that some of these points are no longer accurate. I need to break this into multiple pages, since RCU limits the size of individual pages, so please bear with me here...

Feel. Both radios have a fairly ergonomic design in terms of the overall case. The 9Z is noticeably heavier than the 10X, though that's not a problem if you use a neckstrap / tray. For the various switches, I prefer the way that the 10X uses a variety of switch shapes (some round, some flat) so that by feel alone you have better discrimination of which switch you just grabbed. However, I like the 9Z's mounting of the switches better than JR's - on the 9Z the switches are mounted on a small angled section so as to kick the switches outward a bit. I don't like the ends of the sticks on the 9Z. My guess is that they are designed primarily to suit people who fly just with their thumbs; I fly with thumb and forefinger on the sticks, and to me these sticks feel less comfortable than the JR ones. I also prefer the on-off switch on the 10X... the 9Z one just feels really heavy and clunky - that's probably because they don't have "protection" around the switch like the 10X has, to prevent it getting bumped on - so instead they just make it much harder to move.

Trims. The Futaba is all-digital; the JR is 3 digital plus one analogue. Some folk prefer the 4 digitals, especially since it lends itself to "cross-trims" (which are the default on the 9Z). Plenty other folk prefer the one analog trim though, so it's up to your preference. Just think about how you use that trim, whether you need/want tactile feedback about its position or not, whether you care about the speed at which you move the trim, and whether you want cross-trims - then choose whichever you are most comfortable with.

Display. I found that the 10X's display was very clear no matter where I viewed it. With the 9Z, I couldn't get as much contrast as I would have liked (ran out of adjustment). Also the readability of the 9z's screen seemed to vary more depending on whether I was viewing it in sunlight or in the shop.

User input. Although AMC (Futaba) frequenty comments about one instance pf a JR radio's touch screen stopping being sensitive to touch, I have been using touch screens on various JR radios for more years than I care to remember, continualy playing with changes in settings, and have never once had a problem with the touch screen. That's not to say that a touch-screen can't fail - but it certainly isn't typical, as it might sometimes sound. The 9Z uses a series of buttons around the screen instead of using a touch screen. One thing to note here is that the non-trivial offset between the buttons and the screen (combined with the way stuff is rendered on the screen) means that you may have parallax errors... an entry on the display may seem to line up with different physical buttons depending on exactly how you hold the TX. Take a look at Futaba's web page http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futj9000.html and look at the buttons on the right-hand-side of the screen in this shot... there are 3 selection son the screen, and 4 buttons, and the selections don't line up with the buttons. By tilting the TX this way or that, I could make the each selection line up with 2 different buttons. Again, this is not a major issue - just a "niggle", and over time you will learn exactly which way to hold the TX to get things to line up the way they need to, so that you don't press the wrong button.

[to be continued ... ]

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

[continued from page 1...]

TX antenna In the 9Z, the antenna retracts all the way into the TX; on the 10X you are supposed to unscrew the antenna and store it in an appropriate hole in the TX. Personally, I hate that idea. The integrity of the electrical connection between the antenna and the rest if the radio is paramount. I'm concerned that over time that connection will degrade due to dirt getting into the threads, or the thread wearing, etc. I've personally resolved this for my 10X by redoing the foam layout in the TX case such that I can permanently leave the antenna attached and still store the TX in the box.

Manual Neither manual is perfect, but I found the 9Z manual to be worse than the 10X one. The lack of an index was an issue for me. Also, the 10X manual guided me from step 1, whereas the Futaba manual seemed to often assume that you knew how to do step 1 already, so it was okay to start at step 2... so I had to do more jumping through the manual to find out how to accomplish the task in hand. That was more of an issue initially, and ceased to be a problem once I started to understand the radio (so in some ways the manual was of more use as a reference to someone who knew the radio than as a primer to a novice who didn't know how to accomplish the first thing with the radio). Also, JR has a fully searchable on-line manual so that you can do a keyword seach for anything that is not easily found by any other means. When I asked Futaba if they had such an online manual, they proudly pointed to a series of scanned-in images of their manual. Since you can't do a word-search in a scanned image, this was singularly unhelpful. Who knows though - maybe by now there is a proper online manual available.

Programming. The 9Z has a way to go to catch up, IMO. The primary user interface is like something I'd expect IBM to have done in the 1960's - everything is done via a series of totally meaningless TLM's, and you need to memorize the mapping of these odd TLMs to real words or terms. If terms like CNA, CDC, CSL are intuitively obvious to you, you'll do fine. Also, it takes a lot more work to set some things up in the 9Z than the 10X (e.g. rates & expo), but I'm sure there are also some things that are easier to do with the 9Z than the 10X.

Synth. The synthesized capability that Futaba has is definitely a plus that the JR is lacking. I use the synthesized RX with my WC2, but use a series of non-synthesized TX modules. That's just because of some unverified concerns about reduced range with the synthesized TX module that came up a while ago when I was heavily into the giant-scale racing scene.

Model memory etc The 9Z has the Campac module to let you store more models or more backup copies of model info. The 10X has the datastore which allows you to off-line storage of your model info on a PC.

Heli & Aircraft Although it is possible to use a JR heli radio for a fixed wing aircraft (& vice versa), you miss out on a lot of the programming features that are specific to either heli or fixed wing because of the fact that JR tailors the radio so heavily towards one or the other. The 9Z is much closer to being a "one radio does it all" than the 10X, but is still NOT 100% there in my opinion - e.g. (1) they still sell separate heli & aircraft versions of the radio, with different switches etc on them; (2) If you buy an aircraft radio and want to use it for heli use, then you pretty much have to send the radio back to Futaba for conversion, because every heli pilot I've ever known (myself included) uses friction on the left stick, not a ratchet... and whereas JR will happily tell you how to convert your own radio from ratchet to friction mode, Futaba says you have to send the radio back to the factory for conversion - otherwise your warranty will be voided due to you trying to make your "heli+airplane" radio heli-compatile. But - in spite of that annoyance, the Futaba is definitely still closer to an all-in-one radio than the JR is.

Channels. The 10X has one more channel. That's important to some folk (especially in the jet community where we are regularly running out of channels). There seems to have been some [hopefully unintentional] disinformation posted by Futaba about how the JR channels work. JR states that ALL 10 channels are 1024 bits, but channels 9 & 10 update every alternate frame.


[to be continued...]

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

[continued from page 2...]

Buddy box. JR used to have an incredibly dumb approach, in that their top of the line radios did not have the ability to act as the master in a buddy-box setup - only as slave. They have thankfully corrected that, but I still don't really care for the way that their "pilot link" (as their buddy-box capability is called) is done - either it's very limited, or I'm just totally misunderstanding it. IIRC, the 9Z has a fully functional buddy-box setup.

Misc The Futaba definitely seems to have more capabilty to support some of the less commonly used capabilities. Also, some of the capabilities that bot radios have, the Futaba is a bit more configurtable - e.g. "servo slow" - although servo slow doesn't exactly work the way the 9Z manual claims, IIRC the 9Z is more configurable in this respect than the 10X because e.g you can have separate delays for up than for down (I *think* - but my memory of this is fading).

Assignable switches. Forgot about this one - so I'm adding this as an edit. The Futaba has assignable switches, and the JR does not. This is another area in which individual preferences vary enormously. I like having fixed-position switches that have appropriate labels on them, but assignable switches are a very big plus for some people, so consider whether you want them. One annoying thing about the Futaba in this respect though, is that the default rate switches all have 3 positions but the Futaba has only dual rates, not triple rates. Just seems odd that they did not take advantage of the 3 position switches to have 3 position rates, as the JR has.

Hope some of that might be useful. My experiences with both radios have made me favor the JR, but that doesn't mean its the best radio for you - so try to ignore the bias and sort the wheat from the chaff in all the info you get.

Good luck, and I'm sure you'll be pretty happy no matter which of these radios you pick.

Gordon

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

A few minor clarifications...

There is now a 'getting to know the 9Z guide" which includes not only an index to the classic manual and pages upon pages of FAQs, but also a full glossary of terms and where those terms are used in the manual. The goal is to provide both types of documents to our users -- the reference guide the manual is intended to be, and the 'how do I do this" approach of the users guide. There are also pages upon pages of 9Z FAQs available to provide additional specific programming examples.

A fully searchable version of the 9Z manual will be on our site by the end of July. The original manual was produced at a time (1991) when PDF was "a what?" :-) and so it could not be created simply via conversion like most other manuals are. We are in the process of OCR scanning to pick up this missing searchability for this manual for this key product.

Otherwise Gordon has provided a superb side by side comparison, THANKS GORDON! and i just wanted to answer to these few minor changes.

Oh, PS -- it is significantly more complex to change the ratchet in a 9Z than in a 10X (having helped mike do both). The amount of boards, etc inside the 9Z make this a very sticky proposition and is the reason why we ask users to send the radio to make the change. Care to do it yourself? like changing the antenna, its a case of "if you have to ask how, we REALLY recommend sending it in for service instead".

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

That's good news.

It should make a huge difference because the most annoying aspect of the manual for me was finding WHERE in the manual the info was.

Gordon

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

Gordon,
Have you seen/used the full blown glossary for the 9Z, which has page references to the original manual?

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Actually - I don't know.

Until 2 weeks ago, my 9Z has been in storage (along with the model it's in) for a year or so because I decided to get more turbine experience in a more forgiving model before flying the screamer that the 9Z is in. So, its been a while since I tried to do anything with that radio...

I do know that I got a pre-release copy of another doc from you, but it was all about conditions and nothing else. I don't recall whether there was also a separate new glossary and/or index, but I will go look.

How many separate docs about the Wc2 are there now ?


Thanx,
Gordon

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

Gordon,
What you got was prerelease of the 9Z getting to know guide, but it was just that, pre-release. And it definitely covers a lot more than just conditions. it does have a chapter on only conditions as that's the #1 area of question from our customers, but it also covers a lot of other things. Please visit http://www.futaba-rc.com/manuals/index.html and download the free file off the 9Z page, Getting to Know the 9Z. You'll find a full blown glossary/index as one small portion of this document.

There is also a chapter on equipment selection questions such as modules, modulation, training equipment, cycling, etc.

Then a chapter on progrmaming, including model types, ATV/AFR/DR/expo/etc, mixes, conditions, and other programming examples.

The glossary/index includes not only a definition and page referral, but the keystrokes required to get to that particular feature and that feature's abbreviation. It also includes a lot of references to other segments, such as CX: see crystal.

example:

data transfer: see DTN


DTN: data transfer
Q B K
Copies between 9Zs through the trainer cord. Manual P. 30.


GL2: Model type, glider with 2 wing servos. See TYP, and P. 2-1.

TYP:
P2-1
P C H
Model Type: Select basic programming for the selected model: airplane, glider (2, 4, or 5 servos), or helicopter. All model settings are lost if the model type is changed. P. 2-1, Manual P. 49.

Scott G

I emailed the US distributer and they said November, which happens to be my birthday...

Scott.

Scott G

I emailed the US distributer and they said November, which happens to be my birthday...

Scott.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

The number method is only one option for the 10X ... and I don't use it.

Use the "list" method instead - much more user friendly than either the number method or the awful TLMs in the Futaba.

YMMV,
Gordon

snsmith

My Feedback: (5)

Thanks for the feedback, guys, particularly Gordon Mc. That's the most comprehensive third-party comparison I've seen and it is most helpful. Frankly, I'm leaning a bit toward the 10X, if no other reason than to see how the other half lives. I fly mostly sport and aerobatic planes and am thinking about some pattern flying although I'm really pretty bad at it right now...I presume that either radio is well-suited for this?

However, some things I've read about the 10X have grabbed my attention. One was the insistance on some servos going only on specific channels (the dual elevator was the example). Can't you use a programmable mix to move it to another channel or is it than inflexible?

Also, how far does the antenna collapse? Being an engineer in the telecom industry, constantly removing the antenna doesn't seem a good idea to me either.

As for the 9Z, the flexibility and power seem interesting, but the programming sounds like it might be pushing the tedious metric. My 8U I can program fine without a cheat sheet or manual but the 9Z sounds somewhat painful with all of the codes I noted in the online manual. I can only presume the improved 9C UI will be coming to their flagship radio at some point in the future.

Thanks again and keep the comments and feedback coming!

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

There are a number of freely programmable mixes that you could use to do dual elevator without using the built-in dual-elevator mix. The latter just makes it simpler, as well as not using up any of the programmable mixes. Same with flaperon , etc.

Re the antenna - it does not retract into the TX case, it just collapses into itself. Here's a pic of my TX in the case (with the reworked layout of foam etc to allow the antenna to remain on), and in this example the antenna is retracted as far as it will go.

Gordon

bpannier

Just a note you can not put the 9 all the way down if you have your frequency numbers and flag on the ant. both are great radios

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

SN - Just FYI -- yes, it does use codes for each feature to give you quick access from 3 separate logically grouped menus; however, the most common used ones are pretty easy to understand...like D/R is dual rate, ATV is, well, ATV, PMX is p-mix or programmable mix. The servo screen is SRV, the trainer function is TRN, Timer is TIM, throttle cut is CUT, model type is TYP, model name is MNA, swashplate type is SWH, INV is invert, PIT is pitch curve, and so on. Many abbreviations are identical to your 8U.

Some things that are easy on the 8U are harder on the 9Z, but they're also more flexible.... high rate and low rate are set up separately, and that's because the 9Z gives you a high rate for all controls, not just the primary 3. Expo is set up for the high rate within the high rate and the low rate within the low rate, so again you have expo available on all 8 channels not just the big 3. The dual rates can be assigned to any channel, and are not hard fixed to elevator, aileron and rudder. they're easy enough to use for that, but if you want to use them for something else, you can do that also.

If you learn to understand the logic of the 9Z, yes it is still harder to program than the 8U, but it is also so much more flexible. When you realize that the layout is as follows:

system menu affects every model and is for things like the user name, selecting a model, and frequency control;

the model menu affects the entire model setup and is for things like the model type, the model name, the swashplate type, the servo function screen (assigns each servo to whatever control you chose including letting you assign the 4 trims freely to any channel) and the failsafe settings;
the conditions menu is for features which can be changed from one condition to the next, such as ATV, dual rates, mixes, invert and gyro settings, flaperon/vtail/airbrake/elevon, etc.

The radio becomes far more logical and easier to use. It is rather like the old days of wordperfect vs word. Word was easier for the beginner, but wordperfect was SO much more powerful for the experienced high end user. The same is true of 10X vs 9Z. Yes, the programming IS more simplistic and laid out in a manner more condusive to a more basic user; however, the 9Z has far greater flexibility.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I frequently use an almost identical analogy - except that I use Word vs FrameMaker as an anlogy for 10x vs 9z. (Though I hear that the latest Frame versions are much better than they used to be)

The sad thing is that in both cases (Frame and 9Z), it is totally unnecessary to make the simplest functions more obscure and difficult to use just because there are some more complex advanced functions available, so the frequently rolled out excuse of "its harder to use because its more powerful" just doesn't cut it. That's like saying that because the new 2003 Dodge pickups have a more advanced sound system installed, it's necessary to make it harder to put your turn signal on !!

I've spent enough of my career as a software engineer designing user interfaces to know just how easy it is to make a good user interface if you care about usability.

The fact that the 9z gets so many devoted followers in spite of its poor programming interface speaks volumes for the power of the radio. Its a pity though, that Futaba doesn't realize just how much more market share they could clean up on if they put a decent interface in there...

Regards,
Gordon

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

Gordon,
I won't argue with you one bit that it could be more user friendly. Please do remember that the interface -- the basic 9Z -- is more than 10 years old. We've all learned VOLUMES since then about end user usability, layouts, functionality, etc....what version of windows were we all using in 1991? :-)

I hope that the 9C is a clear indication that Futaba really understands how much easier a user interface can be created, now that that is a focal point rather than the focus of the 9Z which was maximum flexibility and usability in a high-$-memory timeframe.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Just curious - given that the 9Z seems to be your flagship product ... why didn't the more recent versions of the 9Z (e.g. the Wc2 which is only 2 or 3 years old) benefit from all that Futaba has learned about user interface in the preceding years, instead of keeping the "top" radio "old" and instead putting the lessons learned into lower-end radios ?

Does this suggest that you intend phasing out the current high-end radio and making something like the 9C your primary focus instead ?

Gordon

amcross

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Gordon!
Sorry, what might be done in the future is handled thousands of miles away....and I honestly can't comment on whether the 9Z will see another upgrade another 5 years away, or a replacement, or.... I do know that Futaba is not one to 'doctor up' their flagship radio every few years, rather focusing on providing everything they feel they can in each generation and proudly standing behind that unit.

The 9Z would require a drastic overhaul to create a new interface that keeps all the same functionality, etc, and would require major reworking internally to support different processors, etc, to do so. As such, this incredibly popular, amazingly powerful system has remained the premier flagship it is, carrying software that was literally years ahead of its time at its release. I would not expect them to try to rework all of that internal to this case, rather starting fresh with a new radio would be more logical. However, the 9Z has seen two upgrades in the 10 years of its life, and i certainly wouldnt even pretend to imply that it will be replaced with something else rather than seeing an additional step forward.

The changes in programming logic, etc, at the 9C level, as i understand it, is designed to fit the needs of the more basic user who purchase these systems, while the 9Zs focus always has been and continues to be vast functionality.

I honestly can't say what the future generations will hold. What I can, and regularly do, try to do instead is to educate people on the 9Z's logic, the flexibility and power it offers, and provide easy access documents to help people learn to work with what it has to offer.