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10x or 9z???

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Old 07-11-2004, 12:21 PM
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vatechguy3
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Default 10x or 9z???

i'm currently flying a futaba 9c and looking to upgrade to high end when i get my carden this winter. here are the issues i have with each radio:

spring tension in the jr is much better (i like really tight springs)
i like the switch assignability of the futaba
i don't like the d/r switches forced onto certain switches in the jr
i like the battery consumption on the jr much better
programming is pretty much the same to me, so thats a non issue
the cost is pretty much the same

can those of you who made this choice please help me out?? what made you pick one over the other??

thanks
tony
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Old 07-11-2004, 12:48 PM
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GalenB
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Since you already have Futaba gear then I'd stay with Futaba. I did and have not regretted it for a minute! I got my 9Z last Christmas and am still learning all that it can do...

Here are some answers to your 9Z concerns and a couple things you didn't ask:

[ul][*] Spring tension -- the 9Z springs have a tensioner that you can access without opening the radio. If you want stronger springs call Radio South -- they sell stronger replacement springs for the 9Z.[*] Battery life -- I modified my battery cassette for quick charging so the shorter than JR battery life is not a problem. You can easily replace the 1100 mah cells in the battery cassette with higher capacity cells. There is a "how-to" article here on RCU that will walk you through the process...[*] Synthesis -- you didn't mention synthesis... JR currently lacks this very useful feature. I like being able to quickly and easily choose an open channel when things get crowded...[*] CAMPacs -- you also didn't mention CAMPacs. I prefer having all of my model memories in my transmitter case. With the JR you need a PC to hold the extra model memories... CAMPacs need no power to retain their memory so they also make great back up media!
[/ul]
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Old 07-11-2004, 01:41 PM
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vatechguy3
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

are the radio south springs any different than the HD futaba springs??

i have already put those into my 9c and run the tensioner all the way up.

tony
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:20 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

ORIGINAL: vatechguy3
are the radio south springs any different than the HD futaba springs??
Hi Tony,

I really don't know... I suggest that you call Radio South and ask them... I do recall someone telling me they were either just as strong as the JR springs, or that they are the JR springs... Either way they can tell you...
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Old 07-11-2004, 06:10 PM
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Default Yes!!

I have them both, and here is my too sense. I've had a 9ZAPS since 1993 when they first came out. It's a great radio. I also have a 10X that came with my first giant scale a couple of years ago. Also a great radio. They both fly my planes flawlessy. The Futaba let's you get more technical for sure. With my 9Z after awhile, I wound up making a binder because of all of the options and memories available. There is no way you can fly that radio with more than a couple of models without some sort of documentation.
No problem, I did that. My point is that with the 10X, less documentation is necessary because of the layout. On the Horizon site there is an articel on just that subject. It may not mean much to some of you, but there is something to be said for the fact that you can hand anyone your 10X and they pretty much know the deal!
It boils down to Ford, Chevy, Futaba, JR, DA, 3W - yada yada yada. Pick one, go fly and have fuunn...
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Old 07-11-2004, 07:59 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Neither...Look at Multiplex Royal Evo 9 or 12...
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Futaba 9Z ..........
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Old 07-13-2004, 02:47 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

I too had to make the same choice four years ago or so. Both are very fine radios. I ended up choosing the 9Z for three reasons, I already had Futaba gear, the 9Z supports some slick programming with conditions and all, and the 9Z inherently supports acro, heli and sailplane configurations. At the time, I mainly flew planes, but I also had a heli. Quite honestly, the 10X not having software for both planes and heli was the deal breaker for me. I know you can work around this on the 10X, but why? How much would it really cost them to include the heli software too? 5 cents? There are other features I like about the 9Z over the 10X, and visa versa, but they are minor and didn't carry much weight in my decision.

I too prefer tight springs as I fly with thumbs. I put in the super strong springs from radio south. Works great.

Hindsight is 20/20. Four years later, I can say I'm convinced the 9Z was the right radio for me. The key here is "for me." The "Chevy vs Ford" mentality doesn't help anyone, but anyone that says both these radios are identical, just pick one, is wrong. There are marked differences between the radios which may make one or the other a better choice depending upon what you need in a radio. For me, I would die without the conditions and switch assignability provided in the 9Z. I love the synth module and the ability to change freq, this is very helpful when buddy boxing with new pilots, i.e. I can Xmit to thier RX. I also probably wouldn't fly helis if I had a 10X.
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

If you have alot of futaba gear stay with Futaba, if not, go JR10X! I have one and love it, awesome feel, easy to use, looks great. The switch assing thing is a joke, why would you not want the same stuff on the same switches from model to model? Im just learning how to use the flight modes on my 10x, you wouldnt out grow it.

So call it personal preference for you. I went JR about 6 or 7 years ago and aint going back!
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:33 PM
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JohnW
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Side Bar: John VH, IMO, switch assignability is nice, but you got to think "outside the box" so to speak to see the power of assigning switches. Maybe if I explain why I like the assignability, you'll see why it is not a joke, at least for me. First, I don't want my switches all the same from model to model becaue every plane/heli I have is different. Granted, I generally want the switches similar (i.e. I always use the same switch for throttle cut on all my planes/helis), but each model has it's own unique programming needs. The obvious, switch assignability allows me to adjust the radio such that the switches do what I want them to do, not what the manufacturer tells me they do. The less obvious, but the more powerful benifit of switch assignability is the full freedom ability to combine functions, mixes and even conditions on any switch in any combination. For example, on the switch I assign for D/R whatever, I may have several programmable mixes or even a condition kick in depending upon the position of the switch. In addition, I can fully redefine and reassign every predefined mix, programable mix and switch acorss all eight conditions. Without full control on switch assignability, I might still get similar programming mixes entered, but I may be limited to only certain switches and/or I would need to flip more than one switch. The net result is not the same because if I forget to flip every swtich I need to flip when moving from one rate to another, I'd be flying is some weird setup I never want to be in. It seems silly to me to need to flip more than one switch when I always want certain mixes to kick in when I want to change my D/R whatever, etc. I'll admit the usefulness of linking functions on one switch is well beyond what the average pilot needs, and is a minor point for most when looking at radios. But like many things, once you start using the feature, it is difficult to live without.
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:27 PM
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RTK
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Good explaination JohnW! I could not have said it better. I do like my 9zII too.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:46 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Sounds to me all your talking about is flight modes on a JR, flip a switch and you can have what you want.. personal preference.. I love going to the field and seeing guys trying to remember what switch does what...
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:55 PM
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JohnW
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

No, I was not really talking about flight modes, but we can. Futaba has something similar to JR10X flight modes called conditions. However, a Futaba conditions give much more flexibility than a JR flight mode. Basically everything except servo reversing can be reconfigured in a condition. The 10X has many options in a flight mode, but you don't get a clean slate like in a Futaba condition. With the ZAP you are not limited to the number of condidtions you can set up, you are however limited to 8 live conditions per model. The 10X has 5 flight modes. Flight modes on the 10x are limited to certain switches. With the ZAP, conditions can be set to engage with any switch position or even multiple switch positions and even gimble positions.

Back to switches. What is cool about switch assignments is the flexibility in assigning mixes and conditions to the same switch or even a gimble. I can (and actually do on one plane) assign a condition to kick in when my elevator is near full deflection. There is absolutely no way to do anything like this on the 10x. But then again, most pilots could care less if thier radio can flip setups based on stick position. I realize this is in a 1% area, and most pilots just don't understand why you would want to do this in the first place. I too couldn't imagine why I'd want to do this until recently. I just thought I would try to express why I personally like switch assignability. I love my ZAP, but that doesn't mean it is the right radio for everyone. I was just trying to educate a little on the how and whys of switch assignability.

Cheers.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:58 PM
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JohnVH
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

so what, if this is your main radio, you will not care what switch its on, it will be normal to you because all your models will be on it.... the 10x, just like the 9z, will do everyting you need, its just personal perference.. I choose JR, you choose futaba. No biggie.
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:15 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

I think you are way off on this one John.

The switch assignability is huge, if you have a lot of functions to squeeze into a few channels.

My last jet with a 9 ZAP

Ailerons
Elevator
Rudder/Nose gear steering
Throttle
Aux control (cruise control)
Flaps
retracts
Extending nose strut
drop tank
wheel brakes
braking parachute

Notice that is 11 controls, with the Futaba 8+1. Have to have switch assignability for this.

My newest jet:

Ailerons
Elevator
Throttle
Rudder/Nose gear steering
Aux control (cruise control)
smoke
flaps
air brake
retracts
wheel brakes
drop tank
gyro gain


Now this is 12 controls, with 8+1 channels.

Without the assignability this would be murder, if not impossible
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:21 PM
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JohnVH
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Well, everyone has an opinion, majority of jet guys I see are using the 10x also, so again, personal preference.. Everyone has an opinion.
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:22 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Matt one question- How do you control all those functions with 9 channels?
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Old 07-15-2004, 06:53 AM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

JohnVH,

How much time have you got on a 9Z? Have you ever owned one???

Since you have a lot of experience with the 10X, please answer this; how do you alter servo travel on that radio without affecting ATVs? I'm not talking about dual rates; I'm talking about the ability to change the amount of movement on ANY channel (say, throttle), without affecting servo resolution by cutting back on the ATV.

.
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Old 07-15-2004, 09:43 AM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Never owned one, after playing with a couple at the field, and trying to help the owner try to figure it out I vowed to never buy one. Its just not a radio for me, my 10x is easy to figure out, that thing for me was much harder. My 10x does everything and more than I need so I am happy. Everyones needs differ, so if you think its better buy it.

I just adjust the travel of that servo, never had an issue of not being able to get the needed throw out of a servo yet.
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Old 07-15-2004, 09:51 AM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Switch assignments must be a wanted option. Jr has gone to it in their 9X and the 6102. I believe the new Hitec 6 also has it. It must matter to a lot of people or the manufactures wouldn't be adding it.
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Old 07-15-2004, 09:59 AM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

I have the 9z and a friend has the 10x , I like both, They both are good radios like john vh said if you aready have a lot of jr get jr if you have futaba get futaba. I got futaba because all but one at our club used futaba,
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Old 07-15-2004, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

<<...never had an issue of not being able to get the needed throw...>>

That wasn't the question. And the answer is, you cannot.

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, but you made the statement that "...the 10X, like the 9Z, will do everything you need...>>

That is an inaccurate statement. Perhaps either version of the 10X will do everything YOU need. But the simple fact is that the 9Z is a more capable radio, with more features. No matter which way you cut the pie, cling to the "personal preference" theory, scoff at switch assignability, etc., etc., the truth remains.

Again, nothing personal, but your self-admitted minimum exposure to the 9Z means that you really have no idea just what it can do, and how easy it is to make it happen. Some of us, OTOH, used the PCM-10 series interface for quite some time (five years, in my case, up to the 10 SX II and 10X), and therefore are very familiar with it and can make an honest comparison between the two. Like most JR PCM-10 users, I wallowed in my ignorance of the 9Z and decried it as too complicated, etc. Then I got one, and the light dawned.

Please understand that I am NOT dissing the PCM-10 series radio by JR. They are all excellent products. They are simply not as versatile as the 9Z. Their one big advantage is two extra proportional channels, which is why most big-time scale and jet guys use the 10X. Talk to me in a couple of years, after the new Futaba twelve channel has gotten its feet on the ground, and let's see who is using what...

You're right; one should buy what one thinks is the best for him. But don't allude that the 10x is equal in capability to the 9Z. That, quite simply, is not true.

Equal quality? Certainly. Equal capability? No way.

.
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Old 07-15-2004, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

ORIGINAL: RTK

Matt one question- How do you control all those functions with 9 channels?
First you have to focus on the non proportional (on-off) functions. And then you have to look at non proportional functions that are related (i.e. the functions that are somewhat "state" dependent).

The easiest example to think about is a braking parachute. You only want that chute coming out if the gear are already down. So these 2 function's "states" are related. You do not need independent control of one or the other. Once you have this relationship established, it is easy to set up the gear and the parachute on one channel. But on your radio, they could be 2 seperate switches to control each, if you have the flexibility on assigning switches (it might be possible to do on a JR, but once you have 2 or 3 of these dual function set ups to do I think you would run out of tricks)

Another good example is the gear and the wheel brakes (I do this with a couple of electronic air valves, very easy to set up). Or the tank drop and air/speed brake (they are in the way of each other so you have to drop the tank before you lower the air brake), or the smoke and the landing gear, etc.

It used to be that you had to be creative to set up stuff like this (it used to be called "modeling"). The new channel expander from JR makes this a lot easier to do now. In any case you really need to be able to make switches control anything you want to be able to make these very complicated set ups. Of course it would be nice to just have more channels, but these same strategies apply to any radio, so you could make a 10 or 12 channel control even more functions.

And with PCM, there is a pretty firm limit on how many channels you can send on a normal RC timeline anyway. Futaba cheats by making 1 channel non proportional; JR cheats by having a couple of channels update at a slower than the others (I think).

To me the main reason I got the 9 ZAP was to have the frequency synthesizer. Then I learned about programmable switches. As someone said JR is adding programmable switches so they must be valuable to a lot of people or they would not bother. It is just a matter of software anyway.
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Old 07-15-2004, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

Whatever steve.... think what you want. you think that thing is best, good for you. Like I said, the 10x is working for more people than I see with a 9z. Just my personal observation. Not saying the 9z is bad, its not, neither is the 10x, I just like the jr better.
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Old 07-15-2004, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: 10x or 9z???

JohnVH: Radios, especially higher end radios, become a very personal item as they are the primary interface between pilot and plane. I fully respect your preference for the 10X. I have some close flying buddies that love their 10X and would never want a 9ZAP. That's cool. Then again, I know just as many people using 9ZAPs that would be unhappy with the 10X because it does not support certain features found on the ZAP. That's also fine by me. My intention was never to belittle the 10X or persons who use the 10X. But your comment that switch assignments is non issue caught my attention because for me it is not a non issue and this is one area that clearly seperates the ZAP and 10x. Its not the only area and probably isn't the most important area, but there is a diff here between the two radios that may or may not be importnat to those reading this thread who are in the process of looking for a new radio.

Switch assign ability and Conditions are high end features that don't always have obvious benefits until you see some examples and start using them. You yourself stated you just started playing with JRs Flight Modes. This is normal IMO. It took me a year to start using conditions on my ZAP. Four years later, I now have a good grasp of ZAP conditions and clever switch assignments. I use these features all the time, even on my simple models. I think you'd be surprised as to how useful these features are if you had the opportunity to use them.

In the end I suppose it doesn't really matter... a 4ch analog radio will fly most planes just fine. But I like additional features because it increases my flying enjoyment. I can fly and enjoy a plane with one condition and fixed switches, but prefer the option to move switches and setup multiple conditions.
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