Futaba 9Z programing trouble
07-29-2002, 04:14 PM
#1
Futaba 9Z programing trouble
I have a 9Z that im trying to ptogram for a heli, the Jetcopter SX (turbine powered)
In the default set up for the heli mods, the pitch and throtle are coupled to one stick. Since the turbine runs at a constant RPM, i need to move the throtle off of the left stick, and to a turn knob. I reasigned the throtle to the turn knob on functions menu, but that also moved the pitch to the turn knob also (though in the functions menu the pitch is still on the left stick)
Is there anything i am doing wrong ? I should be able to decouple the throtle only and leave the pitch on the stick ? right ??
the only other thing i can think of is setting up a flat throttle curve, and using a knob to bump the curve up or down (but that would only wirkin the mid stick position, so i guess that idea might be out too )
please help !
Wojtek
In the default set up for the heli mods, the pitch and throtle are coupled to one stick. Since the turbine runs at a constant RPM, i need to move the throtle off of the left stick, and to a turn knob. I reasigned the throtle to the turn knob on functions menu, but that also moved the pitch to the turn knob also (though in the functions menu the pitch is still on the left stick)
Is there anything i am doing wrong ? I should be able to decouple the throtle only and leave the pitch on the stick ? right ??
the only other thing i can think of is setting up a flat throttle curve, and using a knob to bump the curve up or down (but that would only wirkin the mid stick position, so i guess that idea might be out too )
please help !
Wojtek
07-29-2002, 04:58 PM
#2
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Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Been there done that!
I have asked this question in the past and got no answer.
In the end I figured there were two possiblilities
1. Set an almost flat curve in normal mode, ramping steeply up from bottom pitch
to full throttle in maybe a quarter of the travel, so you get to full throttle while
the pitch is still a bit negative. In idle up set a completely flat curve.
You would spool up in normal, being gentle with the stick. (the ECU limits the
rotor acceleration anyway), then switch to idle up to fly.
2. Use Aux 1 (ch 7) for throttle and assign it to the know. The throttle channel is
ignored. With the 9Z and four-servo CCPM this means you will have to use
single channel control mode and forego the auto shutdown. I just pause at
about half-throttle for a few seconds then shut down using the knob. Even
if you shut down from full RPM it won't be too hot if you keep the blades near
zero pitch so the engine isn't heavily loaded. The local Jetcat rep told me he
just uses single channel control and does the shutdown procedure manually so
it's no great loss to use the aux. control channel unless you want the smoke or
speed control functions.
I ended up using #2. The only issues I have are that you have to put the collective somewhere near, but below zero as you spool up to avoid squishing the landing gear into the ground, and that you can't trigger the timer from a knob, only a switch or a stick. Starting the timer from the collective will work if you remember to move the collective from the bottom as you spool up.
I used the RD knob. I set the zero-throttle, full-trim position (engine idle) at 9 o'clock on the knob. Others set this to the 12 o'clock position. There are plenty of detents so it doesn't matter where you put this.
There was one other thing that I don't understand. I created a pmix so the throttle-cut switch would set ch7 to 0% (engine off). I used an offset-mix and a knob-disable mix (mix ch7->ch7 at -100%). This was not enough. I needed two
offset mixes to get ch7 to 0%, using a total of three mixes.
Th. hold only took two mixes (disable the knob and one offset mix) to get ch7 to the idle position.
None of this mixing stuff would be necessary if we could assign ch3 to a knob and not the stick. I tried for quite a while. Disabling the throttle curve just resulted in a straight line throttle curve, but the stick still had control. I was able to get collective and throttle on the knob together at one stage, I think. Just had a thought - do this, set a flat pitch curve, then use the stick to offset the pitch somehow.
Anyway, I can fly it just fine using the aux channel for throttle, so I'll probably leave it that way.
I have a friend who has some electric helis with governed brushless motor controllers. The controller uses its throttle input to set the RPM. He uses the steep slope up to a flat curve thr. curve and seems to do OK. The controllers generally are very gentle with RPM changes (makes aborting autos a worry!), but some are not and you have to be very gentle with the stick on spool-up.
Hope this helps,
Phil
I have asked this question in the past and got no answer.
In the end I figured there were two possiblilities
1. Set an almost flat curve in normal mode, ramping steeply up from bottom pitch
to full throttle in maybe a quarter of the travel, so you get to full throttle while
the pitch is still a bit negative. In idle up set a completely flat curve.
You would spool up in normal, being gentle with the stick. (the ECU limits the
rotor acceleration anyway), then switch to idle up to fly.
2. Use Aux 1 (ch 7) for throttle and assign it to the know. The throttle channel is
ignored. With the 9Z and four-servo CCPM this means you will have to use
single channel control mode and forego the auto shutdown. I just pause at
about half-throttle for a few seconds then shut down using the knob. Even
if you shut down from full RPM it won't be too hot if you keep the blades near
zero pitch so the engine isn't heavily loaded. The local Jetcat rep told me he
just uses single channel control and does the shutdown procedure manually so
it's no great loss to use the aux. control channel unless you want the smoke or
speed control functions.
I ended up using #2. The only issues I have are that you have to put the collective somewhere near, but below zero as you spool up to avoid squishing the landing gear into the ground, and that you can't trigger the timer from a knob, only a switch or a stick. Starting the timer from the collective will work if you remember to move the collective from the bottom as you spool up.
I used the RD knob. I set the zero-throttle, full-trim position (engine idle) at 9 o'clock on the knob. Others set this to the 12 o'clock position. There are plenty of detents so it doesn't matter where you put this.
There was one other thing that I don't understand. I created a pmix so the throttle-cut switch would set ch7 to 0% (engine off). I used an offset-mix and a knob-disable mix (mix ch7->ch7 at -100%). This was not enough. I needed two
offset mixes to get ch7 to 0%, using a total of three mixes.
Th. hold only took two mixes (disable the knob and one offset mix) to get ch7 to the idle position.
None of this mixing stuff would be necessary if we could assign ch3 to a knob and not the stick. I tried for quite a while. Disabling the throttle curve just resulted in a straight line throttle curve, but the stick still had control. I was able to get collective and throttle on the knob together at one stage, I think. Just had a thought - do this, set a flat pitch curve, then use the stick to offset the pitch somehow.
Anyway, I can fly it just fine using the aux channel for throttle, so I'll probably leave it that way.
I have a friend who has some electric helis with governed brushless motor controllers. The controller uses its throttle input to set the RPM. He uses the steep slope up to a flat curve thr. curve and seems to do OK. The controllers generally are very gentle with RPM changes (makes aborting autos a worry!), but some are not and you have to be very gentle with the stick on spool-up.
Hope this helps,
Phil
07-29-2002, 06:37 PM
#3
Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Phil,
Awesome stuff ! thanx ! I will try the set up this weekend, ... my other option is to take the 4 point ccpm off of the radop and do it with the ccpm gyro from Vario ( i have one laying around anyway .. ) this will free up one proportional channel ...
ill post my fibnal solution here on RCU ..
thanx
Wojtek
Awesome stuff ! thanx ! I will try the set up this weekend, ... my other option is to take the 4 point ccpm off of the radop and do it with the ccpm gyro from Vario ( i have one laying around anyway .. ) this will free up one proportional channel ...
ill post my fibnal solution here on RCU ..
thanx
Wojtek
07-29-2002, 07:15 PM
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Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Good luck.
I forget to mention that the fail safe setting procedure the Jetcat manual gives for the 10X works for the 9Z.
The procedure I followed:
1. Set ch7 ATV to +/- 100%
2. Set F/S to 0% for ch7. (knob fully CCW).
3. Set ch7 ATV to -75%/+100% in all flight modes.
4. Now go through the Learn RC procedure.
Phil
I forget to mention that the fail safe setting procedure the Jetcat manual gives for the 10X works for the 9Z.
The procedure I followed:
1. Set ch7 ATV to +/- 100%
2. Set F/S to 0% for ch7. (knob fully CCW).
3. Set ch7 ATV to -75%/+100% in all flight modes.
4. Now go through the Learn RC procedure.
Phil
07-29-2002, 08:43 PM
#5
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Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Phil,
did you try using PIT? (see the 9Z glossary: http://www.futabarc.com/glossary-9z.html)
Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle stick. Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle stick, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command.) Manual P. 58. NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider.
did you try using PIT? (see the 9Z glossary: http://www.futabarc.com/glossary-9z.html)
Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle stick. Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle stick, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command.) Manual P. 58. NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider.
07-29-2002, 08:55 PM
#6
Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Hmm ... thats an interesting point ... reverse of what I need but what i can do is then set the pitch to the knob, and use the know for the throtle, and use the throtle channel to actually controll the pitch ....
I will have to experiment ...
thanx
Wojtek
I will have to experiment ...
thanx
Wojtek
07-29-2002, 08:59 PM
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Futaba 9Z programing trouble
Woj,
Not even that complex. Once you separate the throttle and pitch, assign pitch to J3 and assign htrottle to the dial and it SHOULD work fine immediately. (I don't have a radio in front of me to confirm.)
Not even that complex. Once you separate the throttle and pitch, assign pitch to J3 and assign htrottle to the dial and it SHOULD work fine immediately. (I don't have a radio in front of me to confirm.)
07-29-2002, 09:23 PM
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I just went and mooched Mike's 9Z out of his hands....and confirmed it works just fine.
The following has just been sent to our webmaster, and to the various Futaba owner email lists I support:
Futaba list readers: The PIT function attaches and separates the throttle and pitch channels from one another. Basically, PIT is a mixing command which mixes the throttle channel to the pitch channel, so that no matter where the throttle channel is assigned on the radio the pitch channel goes along to that same contro (ex move throttle to left slider, throttle and pitch go there together). The original wording stated that PIT attached pitch to the throttle stick, when in fact it does not. It simply attaches pitch to the
throttle CHANNEL.
WEBMASTER PLEASE EDIT PIT definition from:
PIT
P D I Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle stick. Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle stick, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command.) Manual P. 58. NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional
if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider.
TO:
PIT
P D I Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle channel . Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle's control, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command), as well as turbine powered helicopters . Manual P. 58.
NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider, or reassign it to the throttle stick and assign the throttle function somewhere else.
The following has just been sent to our webmaster, and to the various Futaba owner email lists I support:
Futaba list readers: The PIT function attaches and separates the throttle and pitch channels from one another. Basically, PIT is a mixing command which mixes the throttle channel to the pitch channel, so that no matter where the throttle channel is assigned on the radio the pitch channel goes along to that same contro (ex move throttle to left slider, throttle and pitch go there together). The original wording stated that PIT attached pitch to the throttle stick, when in fact it does not. It simply attaches pitch to the
throttle CHANNEL.
WEBMASTER PLEASE EDIT PIT definition from:
PIT
P D I Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle stick. Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle stick, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command.) Manual P. 58. NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional
if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider.
TO:
PIT
P D I Pitch curve activation. Heli programming only. Used to attach the pitch channel to the throttle channel . Pitch curve may be disabled or operated by a control other than the throttle's control, for example, in fixed pitch and dual rotor helicopters (which use throttle to adjust pitch, not a pitch command), as well as turbine powered helicopters . Manual P. 58.
NOTE: Manual says this function turns the pitch curve function on and off; however, PCV, pitch curve, actually remains functional if you reassign pitch to a different control such as a slider, or reassign it to the throttle stick and assign the throttle function somewhere else.
07-29-2002, 09:40 PM
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Thanks AnnMarie.
I was looking for a way to de-couple the throttle, so ignored all the pitch stuff. The pitch function still has to work, otherwise the CCPM mixing won't work so I closed my mind and only tried throttle channel stuff.
Any explanation why I needed more than a single -100% offset mix (after disabling the knob by mixing ch7 to itself) to get ch7 to the end of its travel?
I was looking for a way to de-couple the throttle, so ignored all the pitch stuff. The pitch function still has to work, otherwise the CCPM mixing won't work so I closed my mind and only tried throttle channel stuff.
Any explanation why I needed more than a single -100% offset mix (after disabling the knob by mixing ch7 to itself) to get ch7 to the end of its travel?
07-30-2002, 12:27 AM
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Hiya Phil!
Yes -- if you ask a servo to go from center to full left, that is 100%. now ask it to go from center to full rigt, that is also 100%. (think about an aileron servo, for example.) So to ask a servo to from full left to center to ful right it takes 200%.
Hi Woj! It really isnt as convoluted as it sounds -- you're just asking hte radio to turn off a built in mix, which as far as I know, every other heli radio in the world says you MUST need to fly a heli and you can not turn it off.
Yes -- if you ask a servo to go from center to full left, that is 100%. now ask it to go from center to full rigt, that is also 100%. (think about an aileron servo, for example.) So to ask a servo to from full left to center to ful right it takes 200%.
Hi Woj! It really isnt as convoluted as it sounds -- you're just asking hte radio to turn off a built in mix, which as far as I know, every other heli radio in the world says you MUST need to fly a heli and you can not turn it off.
07-30-2002, 01:15 AM
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Hiya Phil!
Yes -- if you ask a servo to go from center to full left, that is 100%. now ask it to go from center to full rigt, that is also 100%. (think about an aileron servo, for example.) So to ask a servo to from full left to center to ful right it takes 200%.
Yes -- if you ask a servo to go from center to full left, that is 100%. now ask it to go from center to full rigt, that is also 100%. (think about an aileron servo, for example.) So to ask a servo to from full left to center to ful right it takes 200%.
I had a ch7 to ch7 mix as well, LIN mode at -100% so ch7 would be at center no matter what position the control knob was in before the offsets were applied. With the ch7 to ch7 and a single offset, ch7 went to about the -75% position.
With two -100% offset mixes, but no ch7 to ch7 mix, the output was at -100% for all but the last quarter or so of the knob's rotation. It looked like the ch7 output was not offset the full 200%, similar to the way it appeared I couldn't get the full 100% with a single offset mix.
ATV was set to -75%/+100%, limit mode. AFR was +/- 100%. No expo, no dual rate. Subtrim was very close to 0 since the servo display was at 0 with only the ch7 to ch7 mix active for all positions of the knob.
I do have it working, and if the PIT thing works out, I won't need any of these mixes, but it is of acedemic interest, at least to me.
thanks for your help
Phil
07-30-2002, 03:38 PM
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Annmarie, Wotjek,
I inhibited the PIT function. This separated pitch and throttle, as required.
However, the pitch curve was disabled. I was able to go into the PCV function and set the curve, but the output from the radio (according to the servo display) ignored the curve and just followed the stick position. I set a funky pitch curve so it was obvious when it was being followed.
The CCPM mixing, thr. cut, thr. hold, etc. still did work, so it's quite usable. I didn't try the swash rotation. You would have to use the CCPM mix rate, AFR and maybe an offset mix to juggle the pitch range to where you wanted it. If you don't want a straight line pitch curve you could mix pitch back to itself, using a curve mix.
If you don't have a CCPM heli, or use an external mixer, then you can swap the pitch and throttle functions, since the throttle curve will still work (if activated in the THR screen), and can be assigned its own control input. Now use the throttle curve to set your pitch curve. Hold would be a problem. You can use the th. hold function, since that would set the pitch to a low, fixed value, leaving the engine running. So, in the hold FLIGHT MODE (not function), set a flat curve in PCV, and set the TCV (now controlling pitch) the way you want for doing autos. Thr. cut won't work, so you'll have to use offset mixes, as I did for the aux. channel.
I inhibited the PIT function. This separated pitch and throttle, as required.
However, the pitch curve was disabled. I was able to go into the PCV function and set the curve, but the output from the radio (according to the servo display) ignored the curve and just followed the stick position. I set a funky pitch curve so it was obvious when it was being followed.
The CCPM mixing, thr. cut, thr. hold, etc. still did work, so it's quite usable. I didn't try the swash rotation. You would have to use the CCPM mix rate, AFR and maybe an offset mix to juggle the pitch range to where you wanted it. If you don't want a straight line pitch curve you could mix pitch back to itself, using a curve mix.
If you don't have a CCPM heli, or use an external mixer, then you can swap the pitch and throttle functions, since the throttle curve will still work (if activated in the THR screen), and can be assigned its own control input. Now use the throttle curve to set your pitch curve. Hold would be a problem. You can use the th. hold function, since that would set the pitch to a low, fixed value, leaving the engine running. So, in the hold FLIGHT MODE (not function), set a flat curve in PCV, and set the TCV (now controlling pitch) the way you want for doing autos. Thr. cut won't work, so you'll have to use offset mixes, as I did for the aux. channel.
07-30-2002, 06:21 PM
#16
Futaba 9Z programing trouble
since the throtle and pitch are not mixed, i used exponential for the pitch .. basically less sensitive at the hover (mid stick) position .... at lease thats what I did ... as for the channel issue, i think i might use the vario ccpm mixer/gyro, and save a channel anyway, i figured i can use this for soe extra function like lights on the bell 230 ..
Wojtek
Wojtek
