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Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

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Old 10-04-2004, 01:00 AM
  #1  
Bob101
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Default Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Just saw this on Tower Hobbies, the synthesizer module for the 8U/9C/ and the new 9C Super is listed as late Nov....how long has it been now - over a year?

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHKB1&P=0

Sorry if anyone posted this earlier but I just saw it while comparing prices on the 9C to the new 9C super radios....which really swayed me toward Multiplex actually.


EDIT - I can't spell synthetic apparently
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Old 10-05-2004, 09:59 PM
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Jean13704
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Up until a couple weeks ago, Tower said "Late Oct", now they say "Late Nov". But still no details or even a picture on their web site. Who knows when, if ever, this vaporware will actually appear.
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:50 AM
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hydro_gin
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

I'm sure many 9C owners will welcome the synth module.

But if you have any Berg or FMA DSP-based receivers, make sure you find out if the Futaba Tx bug that causes them to transmit a non-standard pattern when used with a synth module will be present or not with the new synth module. This has been discussed over at rcgroups.com and was discovered by people running 8U's and 9C's with the Hitec Spectra module - it works when used in combination with an analog Rx, but is a no-go with the newer DSP Rx's. Peter Berg may have a note about this at his website. He also has mentioned Futaba has a "fix" for this but I don't know anything about that. There's also a workaround related to a specific power up/down/up sequence you can do ... forgot the details.

This is not a problem with Berg or FMA Rx's. Its a problem with Futaba Tx's (at least on the 8U and 9C) when used with a synth module.

I hope someone will try this combo and report back ... when the synth module arrives.

Lance
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:20 AM
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WilsonFlyer
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Its a problem with Futaba Tx's (at least on the 8U and 9C) when used with a synth module.
As far as I know, the synthesizer from Futaba will be the first legal and supported synthesized module FOR the 9C so how can anyone possibly even make such a claim? You guys playing on the edge of the fire just to see if you get burned or not don't count as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

The problem is not with the Futaba module becasue I'm sure that it will work with all of the Futaba products as it is designed to do. The problem is that mixing and matching products, though it a lot of cases, will work fine, but to say that it is a Futaba problem because it might not work with an FMA or Berg reciever when a Hitech synth module is put in a Futaba transmitter is just spreading major mis-information. And I'm with WilsonFlyer you mix and match different manufacutures transmitters and recievers and expect them to work perfectly when they have not been tested and certified to work together then you are playing with fire. And it they don't work don't blame the manufacturer.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:04 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

ORIGINAL: rsallen13

The problem is not with the Futaba module becasue ...
Read my original post again. I never said or implied there is or will be a problem with any Futaba module.

The one and only point of my original post is ... I am trying to point out to potential buyers of the upcoming 9C synth module that if they have DSP-based receivers, they would be wise to check with Futaba and make sure there will be no compatibility issues prior to making the purchase.

Now, if you don't want to take this attempt at being a good samaritan at face value, then you're probably not satisfied and should read on.

*********

What is the basis for my friendly warning? You can read more about the background of the issue here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...15#post2640815

This post summarizes a number of messages posted by Peter Berg (of Berg receivers) and others describing what he calls a Futaba Tx bug. Also described is the work one engineer did to determine the cause of his 8U's transmission of a non-standard PPM pattern when used with a Spectra synth module. What might be interesting to you is that Berg mentions in one of his latter posts that Futaba has released a "fix" (that he hasn't tried yet) for the Tx w. synth problem. Hmmm, now why would Futaba issue a fix if there wasn't a bug in the first place?

Lance
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Old 10-09-2004, 02:33 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Oh, as an addendum, Peter Berg mentions in the second post of the thread I previously posted that the Tx bug also occurs in "high end" Futaba Tx's with a Futaba synth module. I can only assume he is referring to the 9z Tx and the 9z synth module. Perhaps some of you would have seen the issue differently had I mentioned that originally.

So again ... Futaba 8/9 Tx's + Hitec or Futaba (possibly 9z) synth module = non-standard PPM pattern (this is the bug) = non-compatibility with DSP-based receivers.

This is the same defacto PPM pattern that the radio mfgr's have been using together for decades.

The question is, will this be the case for the upcoming 9c synth module?

ps. I am not slamming Futaba. I own one myself.


Lance
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Old 10-11-2004, 11:38 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

As far as intercompatibility is concerned, all Futaba transmitters on FM-PPM are compatible with all Futaba FM-PPM receivers. All Futaba transmitters operating on PCM1024 are compatible with all Futaba receivers operating on PCM1024. If a non-Futaba receiver has problems working with a Futaba transmitter, it's a problem in the receiver, not a Futaba "problem".

We'd not know of any modification or "upgrade" to make a Futaba tranmitter compatible with a non-Futaba receiver. If a transmitter was sent in to us where the user complained that it didn't work with their non-Futaba receiver, we'd make sure the transmitter operated correctly per Futaba's specs. If the customer's non-Futaba receiver still didn't work with the Futaba transmitter, it's not Futaba's problem.

(edit for typos)
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

ORIGINAL: Bax
We'd not know of any modification or "upgrade" to make a Futaba tranmitter compatible with a non-Futaba receiver. If a transmitter was sent in to us where the user complained that it didn't work with their non-Futaba receiver, we'd make sure the transmitter operated correctly per Futaba's specs. If the customer's non-Futaba receiver still didn't work with the Futaba transmitter, it's not Futaba's problem.
We don't know whether the 9C synth module will transmit the same non-standard encoding pattern as the Spectra module does so it's unfair to criticize Futaba in advance -- but it's very interesting to compare Futaba's definition of "support" to that used by other vendors who often consider the slightly larger picture when attempting to deliver customer satisfaction.

It also makes good sense, when you're trying to sell customers receivers based on outdated (non-DSP) designs, that you don't go out of your way to make your transmitters compatible with more advanced designs from other vendors.

Every time I think I've decided what new transmitter to buy, various vendors keep coming up with reasons (usually attitude-based) why I shouldn't consider their products :-(
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Hmmm... Blame Futaba for a problem that occurs when someone deliberately violates AMA and FCC rules by using an uncertified frequency module on a Transmitter that Futaba says should not be used with anything but a Futaba certified and tested frequency module....

If you want to use a Hitec Synthesizer, then buy a Hitec Radio!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-13-2004, 01:34 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Sigh ... I'd like to point out again that according to Peter Berg, this problem is not limited to use with a Hitec Spectra module. If you read the references I posted, he implies the non-standard PPM pattern is also emitted by Futaba Txs used with Futaba synth modules (I assume he's referring to the 9z and 9z synth module). He and other technically-minded users have seen this non-compliant pattern, there are no doubts about that.

Based on Bax's response, I am now really concerned for 9C owners who also use Berg and FMA receivers and are going to buy the 9C synth module.

Like it or not, there are thousands of RC'ers out there who are successfully mixing brands of equipement. Futaba's marketing behavior, as evidenced by Bax's response, to me is protectionist (e.g. negative shift). IMO, this is not in the best interests of consumers. Better would be official standards (not defacto standards) that allow the RC equip mfgrs to compete based on features and price alone.

All opinions are my two cents of course,

Lance
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Like it or not, there are thousands of RC'ers out there who are successfully mixing brands of equipement. Futaba's marketing behavior, as evidenced by Bax's response, to me is protectionist
it is more then that though... there is no way a mixed system will be FCC certified, so there is no way futaba could possibly even come close to endorsing it...
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Old 10-13-2004, 01:58 PM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

That is funny! I will call my local radio station to see if they have a transmitter that has been "certified" as a system with my car radio. The FCC doesn't care how the receiver works with anyones transmitter. Only that the transmitter is certified. How could Berg sell receivers as part of a "system" when they don't even make a transmitter? Most manufacturers are happy to claim that their equipment is compatible with other brands.
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

Yes you're right!
9Z synth module don't work with a DSP receiver like Berg ,Schulze, Act ...
Works only with all Futaba and some Hitec receiver.
Mirco
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Old 10-13-2004, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

I wonder if this was a deliberate decision prompted by pressure from the marketing department?
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Old 10-14-2004, 07:35 AM
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

So do the Bergs work with the Tracker II?
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Old 10-14-2004, 06:54 PM
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Tsutomu Mabuchi
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Default RE: Finally!! 8U/9C synthetic module due out..

There's also a workaround related to a specific power up/down/up sequence you can do ... forgot the details.
I am using Futaba 8U with Hitec synth tx module.
When I switch on the tx, it sometimes occurs that tx warns me by an abnormal
sound indicating "speed brake".
It can be solved when I cycle the power sw off then on.
Is what you say this?
The receiver I use is a non-synth Futaba, and I never have a problem with the tx
to fly so far.

Tsutomu Mabuchi
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