onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

Well, I ordered my new Optic 6 with Spectra today. Should be here Thur/Fri. I read all the posts about them, seemed like a better idea than a fairly old model Eclpise 7. Frankly, the idea of setting up a model with Ail dif and 90% subtrim seems insanely remote. 90% sub-trim?? They aren't seriously considering setting sub-trim at 90 ??? C'mon. Maybe shortening the pushrod a half-inch would be better.
I was shocked to see the LHS has Futaba exa full outfits for $180!!! If I didn't have so much JR stuff I'd have been tempted. I spent a couple of bucks more and got a Spectra but no servos. Of course, I've been dying to try the Spectra thing out for years. Gadgets. Even if I don't NEED them, I always WANT them.
Funny, I always find the Futaba 7 compared to the Optic 6. The price seems comparable. I hadn't even considered one until I saw the price. I don't know how they stack up, even Hitecs compare page ignores the 6exa for the 7c??
Anyway, I will let y'all know if I have made a serious error in judgement... or a good buy.
Goodbye

PS: Almost everyone on these forums hated my favorite plane- (which I also just bought, again) my Tequila Sunrise .40, same with my third favorite - a TT Extra profile, same with the GMS .47s I love/loved, my Extra Easy trainer, Realflight & G2, and practically everything I've enjoyed... Though a few like my Morris Knife /Saito 72 combo . I'd be afraid to buy something if all I found was glowing reviews here.

SwampFlier-RCU

Good luck wiht your new radio... (I also think that such extreme subtrim settings are not common IMHO) and I think HItec has addressed the issue in new radios.
BTW, where did you get the tequila sunrise 40? I have only seen a .25 advertised

CFIMEI

Hi,

There are no throttle pushrods to shorten on an electric airplane. I have found -30% to -50% sub-trim necessary to achieve full motor braking. The amount seems to vary with each Optic. (I have had two.) I think that amount may also vary with other, as yet undefined factors as well & may not be the same each time you fire up this Tx. The lockup point is around -60%, not -90%! I use ADIF with most of my models. If you use CROW you must activate ADIF also if you expect aileron trim to work on both ailerons. Getting the picture?

CFIMEI

MikeMayberry

My Feedback: (1)

Sub trim for braking does not make sense; try using you EPA instead or recalibrating your ESC.

Mike.

onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

I got the Tequila Sunrise NIB on ebay (81 +shipping!). They don't make them anymore in 40 size, but some hobby shops still have them.
As far as the sailplane settings, I cheerfully admit total blissful ignorance. I think I'd make sure I didn't apply more than 45 or so for braking. I never meant to say the radio is perfect for everyone, merely that it seems this error is unlikely to be a problem for me.
We'll see.
Also, the guy at the LHS (where I paid under $185) advised against the radio, saying it was a bear to program. He said he programs Fut and JRs all the time, but -when a customer brought in his Optic 6 he couldn't program himself- he could not either and had to get the manual.
I downloaded the manual last night and it seemed simple enough??
Maybe just different ?? I guess we will see.

lwien

Yeah, but Hitec lied on that comparison chart. They said that the 7c doesn't have any timers. They, in fact, have two timers and one of them can be mixed with the throttle so that it goes off and on at specific throttle settings which the Optic 6 can't do.

I hate it when a manufacturer comes up with a comparison chart and doesn't take the time to get it right.

onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

Well, I wasn't trying to put down the Fut 7c OR the 6exa. I only meant a more meaningful comparison might be between closer price points/ # of channels. Having said that, I just looked at tower and the Fut 6yg is almost identically priced to an Optic 6. I guess a comparison at price point would be superfluous. I always liked JR anyway. The Hitec just does so much for so little, with such great improvements in ergonomics, that I couldn't resist. I always liked the way a JR sat in my hands so much better than a Fut, and this Hitec feels much to me better than that. I guess that is why there are so many brands. (Of course, the gadget attraction of the Spectra can't be dismissed. I figure the next gadget will be that seeker Rx, instant Tx/Rx switch-ability! ) Cool.

lwien

Yeah, I know your weren't recess. It's just that I didn't know that HiTec put up a comparison chart, and when you mentioned it, I thought, cool, I'm gonna go there and check it out.

And then, lo and behold, the comparison chart is wrong.

Again, if a manufacturer is going to go to the trouble of putting up a comparison chart, then they must make sure that they get it right and not short change one of their competitors by saying something that is not true. It just makes one wonder what else in not true in that chart and it's interesting that the error is an omission of a feature in one of their competitors products and not an omission of a feature of their own.

But I guess it shouldn't surprise me. HiTec didn't even know that they had a timer that would turn on and off by the throttle on their own product when they first introduced the Optic 6. There was no mention of it anywhere in their owners manual. No mention that it exists or how to even set it up. I guess being that I've been in the advertising and marketing business for so long, that this kind of slipshod marketing really gets to me.

Sorry.......off my soapbox now.

CFIMEI

Deleted

onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

He-he! I went back and looked at the Tower page and I was looking at the price of the wrong radios... sigh. The Optic is close to the exa not the 6y. I guess my comparison is about as sloppy, huh? Anyway, the 6exa sure looks like a great buy. It retails out for barely more than a cheap 6ch no comp radio. I thought they were mismarked at the store. $179.99 with Rx and 4 servos. The hobby is getting cheaper every day... Hmmm, why does that mean I spend so much more???

CFIMEI

Hi,
Whether it "makes sense" or not, it's suppose to to operate as described in the manual & the way it does under most other program options, & not shut down the Tx! Being able to make sense of things is not a requirement to purchase or use an Optic 6. Apparently it is not a requirement to design one either! Does it make sense to have to turn on ADIF to get the aileron trim to work under CROW? Does it make sense to have to use up both programmable mixes (PMX1,2) to achieve elevator/flaperon mixing under ADIF when the same thing can be done with E>F when not under ADIF?

I, at least, am aware of this defect & have been successfully (so far) working around it for several weeks of local flying. I'm not likely to do any damage & fly when & where it is least likey to occur. Pity the "newbies" who have little hope of understanding this situation & dealing with it!

CFIMEI

onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

CFIMEI, I don't mean to speak out of turn, but why do you keep the radio if you hate it? I see them selling Tx only for $150 or $155 on ebay. Heck, it only COSTS $175. Maybe you could sell it on ebay and buy the radio you want? I had a Fut I tried and did that. Better to lose $20 than be unhappy and (in your case) afraid to fly. Heck, I did it ust because I didn't like the way it fit my hands. Life is too short for letting a stupid radio ruin your enjoyment of the hobby. Get a 7c and go fly whenever and wherever you want!
Oh, I think I read somewhere there is a bug in that radio, too. I'm not sure. I'm sure one of the radio gurus here know if it is that radio.
Anyway, good luck with it. Really, get yourself something you WANT to fly with!
onrecess

lwien

I have the 7C and know all about that bug.

Let me know if ya want any more details and I'll post it up. Other than that bug, it's a great radio.

CFIMEI

I keep the radio in the hope that it will be made to do what it is supposed to do. If we don't keep the pressure on we will only get more "workarounds" & rationalizations designed to make the user feel that he/she is asking too much by expecting what should be the result of a manageable programming project, such as a toy plane transmitter, to work as promised. I have a Flash 5 & an Eclipse 7. I got the Optic because it offered two features which I felt I needed that the other two Tx's didn't have; Channel 5 2nd aileron output & Crow. So what two functions turn out to be defective?? You guessed it. I do like the plug-in RF module which allows me to fly on 50Mhz (KD6K) & 72 also, with the Spectra.

The only other factory produced Tx that has ch 5 aileron, that I know of, is the Futaba 9C. You can't use the Spectra with it & Berg Rx's aren't compatible if you use the Futaba synth. Also, there is a non-fatal defect that prohibits some mixing linkages with this feature. So why go there if it's not !00% either & costs a lot more. I don't think its available as Tx only .

Thought about building a Microstar but it would not be legal on 72. Also thought (for about 3 seconds) about designing my own Tx but my old Intel microprocessor development system is on its last legs & if it were to die halfway through the project I would lose hundreds of hours of programming/debugging effort. I hear that FMA is at last about to release its new Tx but I don't know much about it except what Fred Marks told me, about 3 years ago, that it would have conventional trimpots & not electronic trims. I don't see how that could work with multiple model capability but we'll see how it turns out. I assume it would have the Ch 5 2nd ail as FMA makes 5 channel Rx's. I do have some confidence in FMA's development process. They seem to have at least 2 English speaking engineers who can sometimes discuss technical issues directly with users.

The summation seems to be that if I can get a fully operational Optic within a reasonable time that would be the best option., so I'll keep my "Yellow Peril". It hurts to be that close to what I need & yet suspect that HiTec may elect to stonewall & use PR to minimize the problems rather than bite the bullet & get on with a fix. I worry that their Korean designers may not have enough of a handle on this firmware package to promptly fix it without screwing it up further!

CFIMEI

I am presently only aware of one

XJet

To be fair, it's *very* difficult to design and implement code that's 100% perfect on anything other than a trivial project.

So far, the O6's bugs affect only a very small percentage of users (of which you are unfortuantely one).

I've been using my O6 quite heavily in the past few weeks and it's not missed a beat -- yesterday I even flew so much that I exhausted my 1850mAH NiMH transmitter battery and, for the first time ever, got a low-battery alarm.

Yes, it's a pain that firmware has bugs and sometimes you have to update it to get rid of those bugs -- especially when you live 10,000 miles from Hitec USA's support center!

It would be very nice if Hitec could make the ROM a user-replacable part (it looked like they were headed that way with the Eclipse as there's a little daughter-board with ROM under a plastic hatch on the front panel) but they have opted not to do that, which means more hassle for themselves and customers when an update is required.

Despite it's firmware problems, I'm still using my O6 every day -- my E7 hasn't been turned on for quite some time now!

CFIMEI

Hi,

I have produced many "bug free" microcomputer programs. With modern in-circuit-emulators & some conscientious effort it is regularly achievable. It is also expected in order to get paid for the project. In fact, the newer design systems allow a test journal to be set up which allows automatic cyclic presentation to the inputs of the processor under test so that nearly all possible combinations can be verified as conflict-free. I don't think this was done in this case. We shouldn't excuse shoddy work anywhere, even in "trivial" hobby projects. By the way, does the firmware that runs your car's fuel injection system have bugs? Does your grandfather's pacemaker's firmware have bugs? Does the firmware that controls you cable TV box or stereo have bugs? Does your cell phone's program have bugs. (You don't have to answer that last one!)

You must be much closer to South Korea than Poway. (I presume it is South Korea where these are made?) Could you find a Korean speaker & deal directly with the manufacturer? If you do, please ask if this firmware was written using Assembler or Compiler design aids & let me know the answer.

CFIMEI

CFIMEI

Hi,

Did you happen to notice that with full 125% EPA on down throttle that the fatal neg sub-trim point moves up to about -30%! This leaves you the same effective amount of travel before lockup. Down trimming by Primary Trim will then cause lockup & is more likely to occur in a flying situation!

Makes Sense?

CFIMEI

XJet

Well if organizations like NASA and other mil-spec projects end up with software/firmware bugs I think it's reasonable to expect that a $100 RC transmitter might not be immune. Futaba had a firmware bug with the 7C too remember.

No, but I think you'll find that "recalls" for a wide range of problems with cars electronics are not uncommon. ABS, engine-control systems -- there are examples of firmware bugs in all these subsystems out there if you look hard enough.

Hell yes! There's a payTV company out here which was using a Zenith set-top box that crashed regularly and required a complete power-cycle to restore to operating condition. You'd think a big brand like Zenith would get it right eh?

N'uff said then :-)

I've done enough microcontroller programming to know that it's *very* difficult to prove the absolute reliability of such code when dealing with non-trivial applications (and I'd say that a transmitter's logic is non-trivial).

The total permutations of switch settings and pot-positions are enormously high -- work it out -- six channels, each with a total of 1024 possible positions -- then test it all again with the various permutations of mixes, dual rates, expo, EPA settings, subtrim settings, etc, etc. Then, do it all again but this time itest it dynamically by simulating all the stick-movements at varying rates, in varying directions, in varying sequences, etc.

The sad reality is that people make mistakes -- that's why pilot error still causes a huge percentage of aircraft (model and full-size) crashes and why we have so many auto-accidents on our roads.

Right now I'm none too impressed with the way Hitec is handling some of the problems they're dealing with -- but I woudln't hang, draw and quarter them over something as inevitable as a firmware error in the first version of a new computer transmitter -- so long as they put it right with minimal inconvenience to customers.

CFIMEI

Hi,

Sorry the state of firmware is so bad in N. Z. & that you find debugging so challenging.

The level of technology that I had to employ to discover the ADIF bug consisted of these steps:

1. Install 5 channel Rx in 6 oz. electric aircraft.
2. Program Optic 6, including ADIF feature to permit dual ailerons.
3. Proceed three city blocks, on foot, to grass area in front of Masonic Lodge.
4. Fire up Tx followed by aircraft power up in preparation for flight.
5. Observe that motor was rotating at minimun throttle setting.
6. Employ throttle sub-trim to attempt to stop unwanted rotation.
7. Observe that all control contact with model had ceased.
8. Return home, on foot, to isolate & define what I had done wrong.
9. Deduce that I had done nothing wrong & that Optic 6 didn't work as expected or described.

Do you think it is unreasonable to expect that a designer of this appliance might have had enough personal interest in & maybe some small pride in his work to be motivated to at least try out simple manual min/max inputs. Maybe to take the thing in his own hands for an evening or two & "play" with it. I suspect he probably did & was under pressure to sign it off anyway. That's what "bugs" me!

CFIMEI

onrecess

My Feedback: (2)

Maybe he DID do all that. Maybe he knows that turning on an electric model and having the prop turning means he needed to reprogram or replace his faulty operating ESC. They aren't supposed to do that, are they? Maybe your gripe should be with the crappy speed control programmer.
Grab your torches!!

I hate to be irrelevant, but somehow this reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon.

fastplane

I am planning to buy a computer tx soon. As a 1 year rc addict it looks like I will need more than the trainer 4 channel tx. (a JR Quatro) a nice tx but sure has it's limits to adjusting the servos. Of course only one model allowed.
I am interested in the Hitec optic or eclipse. I think I want one with the spectre frequence to allow one tx to fly planes with different frequences. Why is the optic seemed to be preferred over the eclipse? Seems like 7 channels may be more usefull in the long run.
Thanks