RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros Discussion all about rc radios, transmitters, receivers, servos, etc.

Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Reply

Old 08-30-2005, 01:04 PM
  #1  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Where did my thread go ? This is supposed to be an open forum to post ideas. Nowhere in the rules does it say that your posts must be "popular", but it seems that someone has very quietly deleted my thread. If a response or post is against the rules, it is customary to delete the response and warn the poster, NOT delete the entire thread. This should worry everyone that uses this forum.

It may be me that was unfairly censored today, but it may be you tomorrow. This type of censorship only gets worse and emboldens the censor even more whenever he gets away with it. Do you want to be censored the first time you post something that is "unpopular" ? Is this the kind of forum you want ? If not we should speak out against this type of unfiar censorship, because it will only get worse.

Jett
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:21 PM
  #2  
MinnFlyer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
 
MinnFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Willmar, MN
Posts: 28,519
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

It doesn't look to me like you were being censored. Your post was deliberately telling people that it's OK to do something that is clearly illegal in the US. And yes, that is against RCU policy.

If you want to fight the semantics of it, talk it over with the FCC. Don't just "Assume" that how YOU interpret the written wording of the law is correct.
MinnFlyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:29 PM
  #3  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Its NOT symantics, its what the law SAYS. There are to sides to this debate. To censor one side is defeats open discussion and posting of ideas. Sounds like somehting that would be more appropriate in China or Russia, not here.

You are very SHORT SIGHTED Minnflyer, because your "standard" can be used to censor ANY post someone does not find popular, and one day you will be on the wrong side of that.
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:36 PM
  #4  
CrashGaalaas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 147
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

If this lost thread is about changing crystals in transmitters, then will someone please show me the FCC regulation that prohibits this activity.
I have been asking for this for years and have yet to see any evidence.
CrashGaalaas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:40 PM
  #5  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Jett Pilot,
What you are missing is this is NOT our house. This is Marc and Gregs house, we are here by their sufferance. We play by their rules or we play elsewhere. Sorry it's just the way it is. From what I've seen they bend over backward not to censor posts.

My two cents,
John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:46 PM
  #6  
BarracudaHockey
My Feedback: (11)
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 23,392
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Here we go again. 1-888-CALL-FCC

Ask them yourself. You will get the answer that changing a part that deals with the RF output tuning voids Type Acceptence.
BarracudaHockey is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 01:51 PM
  #7  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Right from Futaba's web site.

For a unit with crystals: We CANNOT recommend changing crystals to a different frequency. Changing the crystal on your transmitter is illegal unless you have the proper license. The FCC has established guidelines for the modeler's safety and for the safety of spectators. For safety and FCC reasons we must request that both TX and RX be sent to the service center to ensure proper crystal change and retuning to the new frequency. Crystal based radios cannot be converted to another band without parts replacement, and may not be able to be converted at all. Certain radios can be converted, for example, from 72 to 75MHz. Please contact the service center for any other conversions.

The applicable Federal Regulation is as follows:

TITLE 47—TELECOMMUNICATION COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
PART 95—PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES

Subpart E—Technical Regulations
Sec. 95.645 Control accessibility.
(a) No control, switch or other type of adjustment which, when
manipulated, can result in a violation of the rules shall be accessible
from the transmitter operating panel or from exterior of the transmitter
enclosure.
(b) An R/C transmitter which incorporates plug-in frequency
determining modules which are changed by the user must be certificated
with the modules. Each module must contain all of the frequency
determining circuitry including the oscillator. Plug-in crystals are not
considered modules and must not be accessible to the user.

End of story.

John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:05 PM
  #8  
BillS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,312
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Jett,

For what it is worth I enjoyed the conversation and looked forward to seeing if the sky would fall.

Bill
BillS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:06 PM
  #9  
MinnFlyer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
 
MinnFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Willmar, MN
Posts: 28,519
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

I am afraid that it IS semantics.

It is not what the law says, it is how you are wrongly interperting it.

And this is neither Russia, China, OR The United States. This is a privately owned forum where you do not have freedom of speech.

Changing a crystal in your transmitter is illegal. Telling others to do so is bad advice - and we will not allow an RCU member to encourage others to do something that is not advisable.
MinnFlyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:08 PM
  #10  
TLH101
My Feedback: (90)
 
TLH101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Elephant Butte, N.M.
Posts: 6,707
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

And do not forget the AMA Membership Manual:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/memanual05.pdf
On page 17, under "Radio Control operation", top of 2nd colunm, you will find the AMA's position on this subject.
TLH101 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:14 PM
  #11  
CrashGaalaas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 147
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

The rest of the story that follows the previous "end of story":

§ 95.653 Instructions and warnings.
(a) A user’s instruction manual must
be supplied with each transmitter marketed,
and one copy (a draft or preliminary
copy is acceptable provided a
final copy is provided when completed)
must be forwarded to the FCC with
each request for certification.
(b) The instruction manual must contain
all information necessary for the
proper installation and operation of
the transmitter including:
(1) Instructions concerning all controls,
adjustments and switches that
may be operated or adjusted without
resulting in a violation of the rules.
(2) Warnings concerning any adjustment
that could result in a violation of
the rules or that is recommended to be
performed by or under the immediate
supervision and responsibility of a person
certified as technically qualified to
perform transmitter maintenance and
repair duties in the private land mobile
services and fixed services by an organization
or committee representative
of users of those services.
(3) Warnings concerning the replacement
of any transmitter component
(crystal, semiconductor, etc.) that
could result in a violation of the rules.
(4) For a CMRS transmitter, warnings
concerning licensing requirements
and information concerning license application
procedures.


The manual that came with my Futaba transmitter contains no such warnings!
And the crystal is clearly "accessible from the transmitter operating panel" on the "exterior of the transmitter enclosure"
CrashGaalaas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:26 PM
  #12  
mvigod
 
mvigod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 14,189
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

Hey...if we really censored things we would have removed this thread, right RCU is moderated. It is not a free open speech forum per se because of this. We moderate it in order for the forum to be of MORE benefit to members/readers rather than less. Bad information is often just bad no matter how you slice it.

Realize that if something is illegal we will not allow it to propogate here. While many do change xtals and ignore laws and rules that is something beyond our control and outside of RCU we can't and won't police it (nor should we).
mvigod is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:42 PM
  #13  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

CrashGaalaas
Talk about splitting hairs, it's on Futaba web site under FAQ's. If you want to stand by your opinion you are more than welcome to - but it states it is illegal. I'm un subscribing from this thread because I refuse to banter a subject where it is so clearly stated.
http://www.futaba-rc.com/faq/service-faq.html#q2

John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 02:43 PM
  #14  
ZAGNUT
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
ZAGNUT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: tel-aviv, ISRAEL
Posts: 2,635
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???


ORIGINAL: TLH101

And do not forget the AMA Membership Manual:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/memanual05.pdf
On page 17, under "Radio Control operation", top of 2nd colunm, you will find the AMA's position on this subject.

whatever is written there only applies to AMA members flying at AMA sanctioned fields.




dave
ZAGNUT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:03 PM
  #15  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

ORIGINAL: RCadmin

Hey...if we really censored things we would have removed this thread, right


Realize that if something is illegal we will not allow it to propogate here. While many do change xtals and ignore laws and rules that is something beyond our control and outside of RCU we can't and won't police it (nor should we).
Hi RCadmin,

Thanks for responding, I really expected this thread to be removed, but its cool that that you did not. (maybe you guys arent all bad ) I am not telling people to do anything illegal.... The point of my entire thread is that changing crystals is NOT illegal. Im sure it has been debated before, but I was not here for that [&o] I would like to add my input on this issue.

Obviously people have posted on this before and thier threads have not been deleted, that makes it dangerously close to "taking sides" instead of moderating. If one particular part of my post was a real problem, a private message would have sufficed and I would have corrected whatever the issue was.

Thanks,
JettPilot
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:08 PM
  #16  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

What Hitec has to say about changing transmitter crystals ---
http://www.hitecrcd.com/homepage/nsupport_SFS.htm
From Hitec's site. The Laser 4 and 6 also have a very accesible crystal on the front of the transmitter.

FAQ for Laser 4/6
Q. How can I change the frequency on my transmitter?
A. You will have to send the transmitter to our service department to have the frequency changed. The total cost is $14.95. This price includes shipping.

What Airtronics has to say about changing transmitter crystals ---
Airtronics web site
http://www.airtronics.net/faq.htm
Q. Can I change channels on my transmitter and receiver without re-tuning?

A. Radios equipped with frequency modules can be changed to another channel by replacing the
tuned module with another tuned module. Radios not equipped with frequency modules can not legally be changed
without re-tuning the radio to the specific channel. Not only is it against FCC regulations but more important it may
shorten your range and/or cause interference with someone else's radio that could therefore cause personal injury.
Receivers are not a problem to change the frequency as long as you do a proper range check after doing so.

John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:11 PM
  #17  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???


ORIGINAL: JNorton

Jett Pilot,
What you are missing is this is NOT our house. This is Marc and Gregs house, we are here by their sufferance. We play by their rules or we play elsewhere. Sorry it's just the way it is. From what I've seen they bend over backward not to censor posts.

My two cents,
John
They have made this a public forum, and get people to join by having a set of PUBLISHED RULES. I expect them to follow thier own published rules, instead of just deleting whatever post they feel like. Publishing rules and getting people to join based on these, then deleting whatever they feel like is not acceptable, private forum or not.

What would you do if you saw a black person get thrown out of a private restaurant for being black, even private places that invite the public are held to a standard of fair conduct.

If they bend over backward not to censor posts , thats awesome and will help their forum greatly. Nothing kills a forum faster than censoring posts, because people just stop comming back. Its not instant, and does not happen overnight, but people do get tired and leave.

This was my first deleted thread, so I dont know what thier history is on censorship, but I think deleting my post STINKS [:@] Someone was obviously taking sides.
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:16 PM
  #18  
mvigod
 
mvigod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 14,189
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

If your post was deleted the only thing I can tell you is that you SHOULD HAVE been notified that it was and the reason why. Ghost deleting is not allowed here. There was a bug where our notify did not send a PM to the person when a deletion occured. Check your inbox. If not there it means a mod made an error not notifying you or the bug popped up (which I thought was fixed!)
mvigod is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:17 PM
  #19  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???


ORIGINAL: JNorton

What Hitec has to say about changing transmitter crystals ---
What Airtronics has to say about changing transmitter crystals ---
What Hitec and Airtronics say is NOT law. They obviously have to be SUPER CONSERVATIVE to avoid the out of control lawsuit system in this country. For you to even quote what manufactures say and imply its the law tells me that you are despearte to support what you "beleive" and are willing to be dishonest and mislead others to do it. Pretty sad.
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:18 PM
  #20  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

JettPilot,
What would you do if you saw a black person get thrown out of a private restaurant for being black, even private places that invite the public are held to a standard of fair conduct.
What would I do? Kick somebody's butt.

No disrepect meant. But the whole point is this is not a public place. We are here only as guests.

John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:19 PM
  #21  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

RC Admin,

The bug still exists, nothing new is in my inbox. You are welcome to check it if you like

Jett
JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 03:48 PM
  #22  
JohnW
Senior Member
My Feedback: (6)
 
JohnW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 1,815
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

On certified TX's changing Xtals is indeed 100% illegal JettPilot

FCC Rule 95.222...

(a) You must not make or have anyone else make an internal modification to your R/C transmitter.
(b) Internal modification does not include:
(b1) Repair or servicing of an R/C station transmitter (see R/C Rule 21, Sec. 95.221); or
(b2) Changing plug-in modules which were certificated as part of your R/C transmitter.
(c) You must not operate an R/C transmitter which has been modified by anyone in any way, including modification to operate on unauthorized frequencies or with illegal power.

Exactly what part of this rule don't you understand? I don't care if the XTAL is on the outside of the TX with a big flashing sign that says "Here is the Xtal!!!", it is considered an internal component and cannot be changed. It's not a module. XTal change is not a repair or servicing. It is a fundamental change to the internal workings of the transmitter circuit.

Desperate? Support what I believe? Both of my parents work (one recently retired) work for the FCC in enforcement. Not Hitec, not Airtronics, but the Federal Communications Commission, the branch of the government that makes and enforces these rules incase you are unclear. I've asked them this exact question on XTAls. For certified TX, it is most definitely, positively, 100% illegal for the end user to change the Xtal. Period.

"For you to even quote what manufactures say and imply its the law tells me that you are desperate to support what you "believe" and are willing to be dishonest and mislead others to do it. Pretty sad. " - NO! What is pretty sad is armchair lawyers who try to interpret law. They of course misinterpret the law because they don't understand how it is to be interpreted. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of the FCC regs... but I know those that do. They tell me you are wrong. The evidence you desire I have just presented... I'm sure you should have "no fear" in admitting your mistake.
JohnW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 04:50 PM
  #23  
JNorton
My Feedback: (2)
 
JNorton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coopersville, MI
Posts: 4,326
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

JettPilot
Let's see. The AMA says it is illegal. Hitec won't change crystals. Airtronics says it is illegal. Futaba says it is illegal and quotes the FCC regs. John W parents work in the FCC and say it is illegal. And you say
For you to even quote what manufactures say and imply its the law tells me that you are despearte to support what you "beleive" and are willing to be dishonest and mislead others to do it. Pretty sad.
I am an engineer by training and vocation. I deal in facts. These are not my opinions. For what it is worth I believe there is no technical reason for the FCC's ruling - however it is their ruling that it is illegal as evidenced by the manufactures web sites. I see no further reason to communicate. I believed that if I showed you the sites with the FCC regs quoted it would be enough evidence, apparently it is not. So be it.

John
JNorton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 05:35 PM
  #24  
JettPilot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
JettPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Islamorada, FL
Posts: 1,160
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

ORIGINAL: JohnW

On certified TX's changing Xtals is indeed 100% illegal JettPilot

FCC Rule 95.222...

(a) You must not make or have anyone else make an internal modification to your R/C transmitter.
(b) Internal modification does not include:
(b1) Repair or servicing of an R/C station transmitter (see R/C Rule 21, Sec. 95.221); or
(b2) Changing plug-in modules which were certificated as part of your R/C transmitter.
(c) You must not operate an R/C transmitter which has been modified by anyone in any way, including modification to operate on unauthorized frequencies or with illegal power.

Exactly what part of this rule don't you understand?
(A) A crystal is not internal modification, because the rule prohibits ANYONE from making an internal modification, if changing a crystal was considered making an internal modifacation, not even a service center is allowed to change a crystal [X(]. Thats english 101 JohnW, did you sleep through that class in high school ???

(B) Tells you what a couple things that are not considered modification, but does not say these are they ONLY things that can be done. Again english 101 dude.

(C) You must not operate a transmitter that has been MODIFIED in anyway... Modified does NOT include changing a crystal, because back in (a) they state that NO ONE is allowed to modify a transmitter, not even a service center. So it changing a crystal was considered modification, it would be illegal PERIOD. This is english, and logic 101. Were you out to lunch when they tought this one John W

So what part of the rule do you not understand John W, it would appear that you do not under stand ANY of the rule you quoted... You have a preconceived notion of what you want it to be and your brain is closed to facts that dispute that....

JettPilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2005, 05:52 PM
  #25  
mvigod
 
mvigod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 14,189
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Where did my thread go ???? Censorship ???

JettPilot - check your inbox (email) and spam/junk box in case misfiled (not pm..forgot we added that). an email was dispatched if the mod did try and notify you (not sure if they did or not)
mvigod is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service