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Changing frequency

Old 09-20-2005, 07:02 PM
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deli_conker
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Default Changing frequency

I was wondering what all was involved in changing the frequency of my transmitter. I have Rx's on two different channels (20 & 25). The Tx came on channel 20 and I have a Tx crystal for Channel 25. All Tx parts are Futaba. All Rx are micro GWS.
Old 09-21-2005, 07:54 AM
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deli_conker
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Just so everyone knows, it's obvious that you just pull out the crystal and replace it. I was wondering if that was all that had to be done. I had heard somewhere that you're not allowed to change out the Tx crystal because the Tx then needs to be tuned to the new frequency.
Old 09-21-2005, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Here's a spoon to stir that can of worms you just opened.

Legally you can't change your tx crystal w/o sending it in to get tuned UNLESS your using the plug in RF modules that the newer Futaba transmitters use. FCC rules regarding type acceptance, AMA liability issues etc.

Do a search theres PLENTY of info.

If your smart, the safe way to do it is replace the crystal so that both recievers are on channel 20.
Old 09-21-2005, 10:58 AM
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deli_conker
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I went to the manufacturer's site for my radio (futaba-rc.com) and did a little research.
Under the "How do I change the frequency of my transmitter?" on the FAQ it lists the following FCC stuff...
The applicable Federal Regulation is as follows:

TITLE 47—TELECOMMUNICATION COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
PART 95—PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES

Subpart E—Technical Regulations
Sec. 95.645 Control accessibility.
(a) No control, switch or other type of adjustment which, when
manipulated, can result in a violation of the rules shall be accessible
from the transmitter operating panel or from exterior of the transmitter
enclosure.

(b) An R/C transmitter which incorporates plug-in frequency
determining modules which are changed by the user must be certificated
with the modules. Each module must contain all of the frequency
determining circuitry including the oscillator. Plug-in crystals are not
considered modules and must not be accessible to the user.
I've done some work for the Feds in the past, so I understand how there is a lot of red tape and inconsistency in their guidelines (I almost lost my job once because I moved a piece of furniture to get something I had dropped; it was somebody else's job to move furniture and I was supposed to call them to move it for me to get my pen). But what I understand of the above is the following...
[*]I'm not allowed to change the crystal.[*]Anything that I can manipulate/adjust on the radio without disassembling it is okay.[*]Plug-in crystals must not be accessible to the end user

According to the above, that little pull out modular thing that says 72.xxx on the outside of my radio can't be the crystal (although it looks like one to me) because I can manipulate it without opening the radio enclosure and it is very accesible. If the argument exists that the radio enclosure is opened by pulling that out, then taking the battery out would also be illegal. And if it is the crystal, then futaba (and just about every other Tx manufacturer) isn't following the law. It's like watching a cop speed or roll through a stop sign when he's not responding to a call.

I'm not trying to find a loophole. It's just as easy to drop $7 on a Rx crystal. But I may need to change it at some time and it seems rather far fetched that swapping out a crystal without touching/modifying any circuitry would be likely to cause any problems. I can relate to the idea because I don't want end users at work touching my machines; you use it, I fix it, don't touch it otherwise. But you can readily buy everything you need to swap out your crystal in any hobby store and can complete the switch in less time than it takes me to type out this post, but it's illegal to do so?

I guess my only other approach is trying to find out what it takes to become licensed to swap crystals out. Any ideas on where to start looking for that info?
Old 09-21-2005, 05:39 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

ORIGINAL: deli_conker
<<<snip>>>
According to the above, that little pull out modular thing that says 72.xxx on the outside of my radio can't be the crystal (although it looks like one to me) because I can manipulate it without opening the radio enclosure and it is very accesible. If the argument exists that the radio enclosure is opened by pulling that out, then taking the battery out would also be illegal. And if it is the crystal, then futaba (and just about every other Tx manufacturer) isn't following the law. It's like watching a cop speed or roll through a stop sign when he's not responding to a call.
The pull out modular thing contains the crystal. When the transmitter was built, it was glued in with a tiny drop of glue to make it 'inaccessible' to the end user in the US. But, since the same transmitter may be sold outside the US, they make the glue drop small enough that it doesn't destroy the radio if it is popped out.

The cop analogy doesn't apply in Texas. Certified peace officers here are exempt from many of the traffic laws they enforce.

I do not know the licensing requirements to be able to swap Tx crystals. I'd guess the FCC web site has the info buried somewhere. The cost of the equipment required to properly test, and potentially recalibrate, transmitters would buy a bunch of receiver crystals.

Old 09-22-2005, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I guess my only other approach is trying to find out what it takes to become licensed to swap crystals out. Any ideas on where to start looking for that info?
Phooey on licensing. I would simply like to check one of my very standard transmitters as an academic exercise. I have asked several times about testing procedures and it seems that no one knows. There is no legal issue since no changes are being made. The party line mumbo jumbo and smoky mirrors is tiring.

It is my equipment. I am responsible for the equipment. I should be able to check it.

Bill
Old 09-22-2005, 07:46 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

When the transmitter was built, it was glued in with a tiny drop of glue to make it 'inaccessible' to the end user in the US.
From dictionary.com...

inaccessible

adj 1: capable of being reached only with great difficulty or not at all [syn: unaccessible] [ant: accessible] 2: not capable of being obtained; "a rare work, today almost inaccessible"; "timber is virtually unobtainable in the islands"; "untouchable resources buried deep within the earth" [syn: unobtainable, unprocurable, untouchable]

Either the FCC or Futaba needs to get a recent dictionary because the crystal is anything but inaccessible.
Old 09-22-2005, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

This discussion just keeps going round in circles, thread after thread. The following post, in one of many recent discussions on the same subject, sums up the FCC regs pretty well: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=3256728

The bottom line is Joe Sixpack can't change the Tx crystal. There are a few misguided individuals who think otherwise, and no amount of discussion is going to change the regs or the minds of those who choose to (mis)interpret them to suit their own opinion.
Old 09-22-2005, 09:36 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

ORIGINAL: deli_conker
Just so everyone knows, it's obvious that you just pull out the crystal and replace it. I was wondering if that was all that had to be done. I had heard somewhere that you're not allowed to change out the Tx crystal because the Tx then needs to be tuned to the new frequency.
Regardless of whether it's "legal" for you to change the crystal or not, all of the manufacturers do state that the tuning needs to be checked and possibly adjusted. Does it really need to be done? I have no idea. I'm not willing to take a chance on losing my plane or causing someone else a problem.

Most manufacturers 'protect' their service centers by making it very difficult for the average person to get the info they need to work on their equipment. Sony and RCA do not make service manuals readily available; they want you to pay them. RC transmitter makers and distributors are the same way. If they publish the testing procedures they lose revenue.

Is money the only motivation? Who knows?

It really doesn't matter what Futaba, FCC, AMA, or anyone else thinks; you're either going to change the crystal or you're not.
Old 09-22-2005, 09:49 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I wouldn't worry to much about changing freqs., unless you change to the 50mhz band as that is Amateur Radio band and requires a license! The fine for intentional operation without a license is $10,000.00. And it IS enforced!..
Have a good day!
Old 09-22-2005, 10:15 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

The user must insure that when they use their transmitter, it complies with the technical specifications for the R/C Service. If you cannot do this, you must have someone do it for you.

To change a transmitter crystal, you first swap out the old crystal for the new one. You then turn on the transmitter, extend its antenna, and put it in the location required to use your spectrum analyzer. The spectrum analyzer will have a calibrated antenna. You check the center frequency, and adjust it as necessary. You check the power output, and adjust as necessary. You check the FM deviation, and adjust as necessary. You check the bandwidth and adjust as necessary. Finally, you check the analyzer's display at a wider bandwidth to double-check the skirts of the output spectrum.

If you have the proper equipment and training to do this, you are qualified to perform a frequency change.

The applicable FCC regulations can be found at:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr95_03.html

The technical requirements for R/C are in Part 95, Subpart E, which starts at 95.601. If you don't understand these requirements, and/or don't have the equipment to insure your transmitter complies with them, then you are not considered to be qualified to change the frequency of your transmitter.

An FCC General Radiotelephone Operator License is no longer required to work on R/C transmitters, but most RF service shops have at least one person who holds that license. Even so, without the proper test equipment, even a trained/certified individual cannot assure that a transmitter complies with its technical requirements. How can the untrained layman?
Old 09-22-2005, 10:49 AM
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deli_conker
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Wow. Looks like people were getting pretty angry in that last thread.
I read through the regs page (twice) and by reason of the way Section 95 is written (vagueness, confusing references, etc.), am thoroughly convinced that the FCC is a government entity. I was half expecting a reference to a flux capacitor in there somewhere...

I understand why you wouldn't want to just change the Tx. That's a no brainer. I sent the FCC an email asking them who is "certified as technically qualified" in the following excerpt from Sec 95.221(b)

...
The internal repairs or internal
adjustments should be performed by or under the immediate supervision
and responsibility of a person certified as technically qualified to
perform transmitter maintenance and repair duties in the private land
mobile services and fixed services by an organization or committee
representative of users in those services.

Hopefully they get back to me within a month or so. Pending on what they say, I may just have to trade my 7CHP in on an Eclipse w/ spectra module. We'll see.
Old 09-22-2005, 11:58 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

".....to trade my 7CHP in on an Eclipse w/ spectra module."
You might want to take a look at the Polk's Hobby "Tracker III". I like mine. I might part with my Tracker II, or my Prism Spectra, if you're looking to buy synthesized...

Good luck,
Dave Olson
Old 09-23-2005, 06:44 AM
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deli_conker
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Still no word back from the FCC. So I did some research on spectrum analyzers though. I think I'd rather buy a couple of new cars than buy one of those so I can legally change out my crystal.

The reason I wanted to change crystals is because the closest flying field (which I don't fly at) tells people that they don't fly on channels 20 and 21 because of broadcast TV interference. Well guess what? My radio is on channel 20. I don't fly at the field because I fly parkflyers and don't need the space they have or the dues/fees etc. that they charge to do so. I don't need a range of more than 2500 feet either. But that doesn't mean that I want my $150 Cessna to go down because of a tv broadcast either. By the way, I found all of this out after buying the radio.

I fly at a couple parks. The closest one is around 5 miles away from the flying field, the other is around 15 miles away. I am assuming that the TV broadcast is going to hit my radio at either place so I wanted to get a channel change. I went to my LHS and bought the crystals necessary to put it on channel 25. That's when I started reading the manual that came with my radio and found out all the rules etc. I took the crystals back yesterday and asked the LHS guy about the whole thing. He chuckled, but took the crystals back anyways.

Is the broadcast really going to have an effect on my radio gear like I think it might?
Is the park that's farther away going to be safe(r) to fly at on this channel?
Old 09-23-2005, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

It depends on how close the tv transmitter is. I've flown all over the country on 20 w/o any problems.
Old 09-23-2005, 11:58 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

What would you consider as close? Obviously they think it is close enough to them to prohibit those 2 channels. But I don't know if they are right next door to the broadcast either...
Old 09-23-2005, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I've seen channels prohibited because someone read something in a magazine so that doesn't mean much.

Can you see the towers from the field or on the drive out there? I've flown on 20 where you could see the towers and they didn't cause any problems. I had to prove it with a freqency scanner that it wasn't a problem but they finally caved and told me it was my plane.
Old 09-24-2005, 12:39 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

my former field was located about 500 ft from some tv broadcast towers, all channels worked great. although about once or twice a month EVERYONE would get strange hits... usually enough that we would just pack up and leave for that day, i'm assuming it had something to do with the towers.
Old 09-25-2005, 04:40 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Ok. I went to my normal flying park and checked out channel 20. Aside from something totally unrelated happening to my slow stick, everything was fine. I'm glad people kept their cool in this thread, unlike the other though. I can see the frustration about not being able to change channels ourselves, but also see the reasons why it's not always a good idea. At this point, for me at least, it's much ado about nothing as the nearest flying field is afraid of flying on my channel which means I won't have to worry about messing with them and I know that they won't be messing with me.

My brother is into ham radio, so I'm going to give him a call about it just to hear his viewpoint on frequency, tuning, etc. He may actually have the stuff necessary to make the "legal" changes. I'm still waiting to hear back from the FCC to see what they have to say though. I think I'm going to keep pressing this issue with them just so that the RC community may have some "official" resolution in this matter (assuming they care enough to write back).
Old 09-25-2005, 09:11 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

My brother is into ham radio, so I'm going to give him a call about it just to hear his viewpoint on frequency, tuning, etc. He may actually have the stuff necessary to make the "legal" changes.
lots of rc'ers are into ham also, including myself. (and lots of the people posting on the frequency threads are also obviously) Being a ham, my personal preference is to take what the fcc says and not try to find every little loophole. Imagine the situation where eventually it is conclusively proven that a swapped crystal caused a crash with loss of life. it would be seconds before the fcc required manufacturers to solder that crystal inside. (or maybe radio manufacturers would quit using 1950's era technology!

spread spectrum systems exist for ground vehicles, just haven't made it to air use yet) Worse yet, the fcc could come down heavy handed and take away the 72/75 bands, forcing manufacturers to move up to unregulated 2.4 or 900mhz. Your existing crystal based equipment would be worthless and illegal to operate. (has happened before, and probably has come very close a couple of times)

kc0lmo



Old 09-26-2005, 07:33 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

or maybe radio manufacturers would quit using 1950's era technology!
Both the technology and thinking seem to be very antiquated. The pin box frequency control method, probably necessary in the beginning, has always been downright dangerous. People are simply not going to be perfect.

Bill
Old 09-27-2005, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

Just to muddy the waters further, if you go to HiTec's website and look up support info on their Ranger III FM (75 Mhz Surface radio) they give instructions on how to pull the crystal and change the frequency.

Click on Ranger 3 FM: http://hitecrcd.com/homepage/nsupport_SFS.htm

I would also point out that the surface people (boats, and I guess cars) think the "you can't change your frequency" thing is an AMA rule. They explain that there's no way they can have a race with 20 boats on the water at once at their Nats unless people can change frequencies. They have a point!

But of course, they can afford to be a bit more casual because a frequency conflict won't crash their boat into the ground from 300 feet up!
Old 09-28-2005, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

They also don't run at the ranges we do.
Old 09-29-2005, 01:42 PM
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I finally heard back from the FCC. They also sent me a pdf that I will happily forward on to anybody who pm's me an email address.
From the fcc...

You are receiving this email in response to your inquiry to the FCC.

GENERAL RADIO OPERATORS LICENSE (GROL) (PG)

A PG is required to adjust, maintain, or internally repair FCC
licensed radiotelephone transmitters in the aviation, maritime, and
international fixed public radio services.

WEB ADDRESS: http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/testing.html

http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/
THE FCC DOES NOT ADMINISTER COMMERCIAL OPERATOR LICENSE
EXAMINATIONS. To obtain a new or upgraded FCC commercial operator
license, you must pass an examination administered by a COLE
Manager. The COLE Managers listed below are authorized by the FCC
to administer examinations nationwide and, in some instances, at
foreign sites. Upon passing the examination(s), the COLE Manager
will issue you one or more Proof of Passing Certificates (PPC)
that you include with your license application package that you
or the issuing COLE manager files with the FCC.

BFT TRAINING UNLIMITED INC: 1318 Redwood Way, Suite 220,
Petaluma, CA 94954. All elements are available at regularly
scheduled times or by appointment from 150 examiners throughout
most of the United States and U.S. Territories, as well other
locations by prior arrangement. Fee: $75.00 per 1-2 exam
elements, with a minimum fee of $75.00 per exam. Contact: J.
David Byrd PHONE: 800-821-0906 or 707-792-5678 FAX: 707-792-5677
Internet: www.elkinstraining.com E-mail: [email protected]

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Jackson St., Greencastle, IN 46135 All elements are available at
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Examinations are also available by appointment. Fee: $50.00 per 1
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E-mail: [email protected]

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Examinations for all elements are available at regular scheduled
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Examinations

To obtain an FCC Commercial Operator License, applicants must
submit, to the Commission, proof of passing written and/or
telegraphy Elements as illustrated in the following table.
Each Element is described after the table.

Type of License Written Elements Telegraphy Elements

First Class Radiotelegraphy Operator's Cert 1, 5, 6 3, 4

Second Class Radiotelegraphy Operator's Cert 1, 5, 6 1, 2

Third Class Radiotelegraphy Operator's Cert 1, 5 1, 2

General Radiotelephone Operator's License 1, 3

Marine Radio Operator's Permit 1

GMDSS Radio Operator's License 1, 7

GMDSS Radio Maintainer's License 1, 3, 9

Ship Radar Endorsement 8

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* Element 1 - Basic radio law and operating practice with which
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related to Sea Areas A3 and A4. The exam consists of questions
from the following categories: radio system theory, amplifiers,
power sources, troubleshooting, digital theory, and GMDSS
equipment and regulations. To pass, an examinee must correctly
answer at least 38 out of 50 questions.

TELEGRAPHY EXAMINATION ELEMENTS

* Element 1 - 16 code groups per minute.

* Element 2 - 20 code groups per minute.

* Element 3 - 20 code groups per minute.

* Element 4 - 25 code groups per minute.

Telegraphy exams consist of both transmitting and receiving
tests. Examinees must copy by ear and send by hand plain text and
code groups in the inter- national Morse code using all the
letters of the alphabet, numerals 0-9, period, comma, question
mark, slant mark, and prosigns AR, BT, and SK. Examinees must
copy and send at the required speeds for one continuous minute
without making any errors. Each test lasts approximately five
minutes. The failing of any code test automatically terminates
the examination.

Code speeds are computed using five letters per word or code
group. Punctuation symbols and numbers count as two letters each.

Examinees may use their own typewriter to copy the 25 words-per-
minute receiving test, but must copy tests at lower speeds by
hand. Likewise, examinees may use their own semi-automatic key to
send the 25 word-per-minute sending test, but must send tests at
lower speeds using a hand key.

The Commission will grant credit for Telegraphy Elements 1 and 2
to applicants who hold an unexpired (or within the grace period)
FCC-issued Amateur Extra Class operator license.

TAKING A WRITTEN EXAMINATION

You must decide for yourself how to prepare for an examination.
The marine permit and basic radiotelegraph exams are relatively
simple. They may require only a few hours of study. The general
radiotelephone, GMDSS operator and maintainer, advanced
radiotelegraph, and radar examinations are more difficult and
require a knowledge of electronics. Electronics can be studied
through engineering and trade schools, correspondence courses,
military or employee training programs, or your own efforts.

The question pools, with answers, are available for downloading.
Each Element questions and associated figures) is completely
contained within a self extracting .ZIP file named element?.exe,
i.e., the Element 7 question pool is contained in a file called
element7.exe. The website for downloading:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Informal/

There are several commercially prepared study guides that cover
FCC examinations. Some are question and answer manuals based on
the official question pools. While most of these publications
include explanations which are de- signed to educate, a few
emphasize rote memorization of specific questions and answers.
Such "memory texts" may give you the impression that you can pass
the FCC examinations without learning the subject material. This
is not true. The FCC periodically changes exam questions to
maintain their integrity. You can maximize your chances of
achieving a passing score by mastering the subjects involved.

The FCC does not certify schools or review study materials.
Consequently, the FCC will not recommend any particular school or
publication. Adequate study materials are available in bookstores
and public libraries.

This e-mail contains an attachment that is in ".pdf" format. If you are unable to open this attachment, it is most likely because your computer doesn't have Adobe Reader, which is the program needed to open these types of files. You can install a free copy of Adobe Reader from the Adobe Web site at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html.

Rep Number : TSR09
Mailout Attachment Name : COLEMS1.PDF (see attachment <COLEMS1.PDF>)
Old 09-29-2005, 03:42 PM
  #25  
deli_conker
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Join Date: May 2005
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Default RE: Changing frequency

I do want to add that the pdf has something to do with the privatization of the certification testing and who is allowed to give such tests.

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