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I was shot down today.....

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Old 09-02-2006, 02:50 PM
  #1  
raynman
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Default I was shot down today.....

Hi,
I am throwing this into the forum for some opinions.....My brand new(10 flights) four star 60 was shot down today, and I think it was the other pilots fault. Although he made no offers to help me out ($$). I did not push the issue either, I merely told him that he shot me down. He replied "oh I didn't know you were over there..." "Sorry". Here's what happend: I was flying at an unregulated field out in the country.. where a few regulars fly quite often. There are two areas to fly in, separated by around 200 yards of dirt road. The second area is still visible from the first, but you have to look that direction to see planes flying. Anyway..I drove in and one guy was flying in the first area. I passed him as he was in the air and he just looked at me briefly as I drove by with my 4 star 60 in the back of the truck. He was NOT on my channel. A second guy drove in while I was fueling, and starting my engine, checking control surfaces for proper movement...etc. Keep in mind I cannot see him pull in. I take-off and immediately lose all control after 5 seconds. I crash about 500 yards away. Really bad crash...fuse in half, cracked carb body On mag 91 four stroke...ripped wings etc. After recovering the wreckage I drive over to the first area to discover the second pilot. After he lands his $35 electric, buddy boxing with his friend, I ask him what channel he was on. He Is on my channel #60. I told him he shot me down, and he only made a weak apology and nothing else. I know now I should have stopped and told the first pilot My channel, and THEN drove on. But I also feel the second guy to pull in should have checked all areas for other frequencies. Whadda you all think? Am I totally at fault? 50% at fault? Please post your opinions. Raynman...another valuable lesson learned in this great hobby!!!! []
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:11 PM
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hankpajari
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Wow, I am really sorry to hear you crashed. I guess this is another reason to fly at a regulated field. The cost of your crash would probably pay for initiation and first year's dues of a club. Believe me I am not trying to rub it in, only make an argument for joining a club that some other flier may read and take heed. I'll bet the other guy feels bad but since he is just getting started he probably didn't realize that he could shoot you down.

Again I really am sorry you lost your plane.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:12 PM
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Runway
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

That'sd a real shame, raynman. It's always bad to lose a model in such circumstances.

However, while I do sympathize, you have said its an "unregulated field". Does that mean no club structure, no formal rules, no peg system, etc.? If so, then I'm afraid that it's difficult to expect everyone to conform to one set of behaviours. There will always be different opinions as to what is 'right and proper'. So, there will always be difficult circumstances to face, periodically.

Would it be possible to start some kind of club out there? Presumably there are others who have experienced thae same as yourself. Why not get together and work out a structure that would prevent this happening again [or at least minimize the chances].

Hope the repairs go well.

Good luck.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:13 PM
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raynman
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

I am a member of a club, and yes, this would not happen there. But this area is a nice place to fly, and close to home.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:34 PM
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chris_in_montreal
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Sorry to hear of your loss, its a shame to lose an aircraft in such a way. Personally i would not be happy flying anywhere where there is no system in place for controlling use of radio channels, for safety reasons above all else. While it should be only common sense to check around for use of your frequency before turning on your system, without any "rules" in place it leaves the door open for accidents like this to happen and then you rely on the party at fault to do the decent thing and offer to cover the cost. It may not even occur to a new and inexperienced pilot the consequences of turning on his system with someone else on the same channel.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:49 PM
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Cyclic Hardover
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Well being an independent observer here, let it be a lesson learned, The blame lays on the both of you and thats what you get when your out in an area like that and nobody cares. He owes you nothing. You could have easily shot him down too.
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:06 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

I agree. In a club, the likely hood of this happening is greatly reduced when people police themselves. Incidents like this can greatly be avoided. Take a lesson from this, an expensive one at that. Much more expensive then the cost of joining a club. If there are no clubs in the area, then it sounds like you have the makings of a club of your own.

Sorry about the loss.

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Old 09-02-2006, 04:13 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

One more thing:

Cyclic Hardover mentions in his last line: You could have easily shot him down too.

You would think that he may have noticed some interference as well. If not maybe he was not a fault. 90% of crashes that are blamed on radio interfernce, really turn out to be pilot error. you may have had a problem with your radio as well. I would check your battery first. Bench check the entire radio system. How did the issue occur? Did the controls just lock up and have no response or was the plane acting eratic in its flying. Did you sense any control at all during this incident? These are some questions you need to look at. You should probably send the radio back for service and tell them what happened.


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Old 09-02-2006, 09:08 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

You know, this may sound kind of cheesey but if you insist onflying in that place. Get one of those cheap Hobbico Freq scanners
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Old 09-02-2006, 09:41 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

This crash was a real tragedy, and it was hard to read the outcome of your flight. I suspect
since it was not mentioned, that no one does any checking at these two fields about frequency
useage. Sitting here I can only suggest you do a test experiment when you get this model
airworthy again, or have another model that uses the same tx channel to see if it was radio
interference that caused the crash. Go to the field you were flying from again, and insure no
one there is on your channel, but the same fellows are flying at the second field. Turn on your
tx, and taxi test your plane around for a while moving all of the servos, and see if the second field has a crash. This will answer your question as to why your plane crashed. This way you would not have to invest in a frequency tester.

Is it at all possible for the club you are in would be interested in taking over these two flying
sites, and bring order to their operation? Without any frequency contol system, flying at a
non sanctioned site unless you own the property is a crap shoot to say the least, but I can
well understand the desire to fly closer to home. I used to fly with a club some 60 mi away
one way. Now fly at a club field 20 minutes from home.

Good luck on your repair. The engine damage makes me sick.

Let me know how the test goes once ready to fly again.

Rich S.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:33 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Yeh that'll work, you go back to your field and taxi around and dump his plane. Better leave it all in the truck with the engine running so you can get the heck out of their.
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:20 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....


Yo

Cyclic

You got me rolling now LOL.

Ed
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:33 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

ORIGINAL: raynman

There are two areas to fly in, separated by around 200 yards of dirt road.

Cyclic Hardover is the only one making any sense on this thread. That place is decidedly not a nice place to fly no matter how much closer to home. With known activity, no frequency control in place and you are a member of club someplace else. You are bending over and asking for trouble and I suspect it happens there with some degree of regularity. As far as blame, forget it at least you were aware of the danger choose to operate there anyway.

John



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Old 09-02-2006, 11:39 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Sorry for the loss of your plane. The 4*60 is such a nice flying airplane.

It was bound to happen eventually. Even if it hadn't been you that got shot down. With no means of frequency conrtol--it's unavoidable. 2 fields only seperated by a few hundred yards and no means of communicating frequency usage is a disaster in the making and you happen to be on the short end of it today.

Could you and the other guys get together and purchase a few walkie talkies? Keep them in a weatherproof plastic box such as a fishing tackle box. Leave one at each field. Then, you guys could coordinate frequency usage.

All it would take is a simple piece of plywood and write the frequency numbers on the board at both fields. Have a clothes pin for every frequency at both fields. Call down to the other field and announce your frequency to one of the guys. He would then put your pin up on that board and you would put a pin up at your board. Then anyone who shows up at either field would know what frequencies were being used and which were open.

It wouldn't take much effort to put a funcitoning frequency control board into place. All you need is the desire and the cooperation of the other flyers. It would make the hobby a lot safer and more enjoyable for all involved.
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:39 AM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Raynman, I'm sorry you lost your plane. However, flying under the circumstances you describe, it was bound to happen. Now that it has, you need to raise a ruckus to get some kind of frequency control installed at this rogue field, or complex of fields. Not to cast blame on the other guy, because frequency control is a point of protocol that needs to be instilled into new flyers by those who know better. You are now the guy who knows better than anyone, having taken the hit.

The hard truth is that even with full-fledged frequency control, shoot-downs still happen. Even with contest impounds, someone not in the contest will take his toy chopper out in the parking lot and shoot down a giant scale. (Joe Nall a few years ago.)

I fly at several AMA clubs, all with frequency control systems. Even there, I walk around and say hello to everyone when I arrive, and check to see what frequency they're on, and let them know what frequency I'm on. Even then, I've had interference on the ground when I've had the pin.

If I'm on the same frequency with another guy, I make it an absolute point to talk to him throughout the day, so we both know who's on and who's off.

At driving school, they teach defensive driving. If you could have avoided a crash, it doesn't matter much who the driver at fault was if one of you gets badly hurt. Maybe it matters to the insurance companies, but you have to watch out for the other guy as well as control your own vehicle. As you put more time, sweat and dollars into your planes, it will behoove you to be more and more circumspect before you put your plane in the air. Even when you have Digital Signal Recognition or some other armor-plated protection, trust no-one, and verify!

As to financial damages, it looks like you will have to eat this one all by yourself. If the newby had enough awareness to know his responsibility in the matter, he ought to offer a contribution; but next time you see him, if I were you I'd at least talk to the guy, and get him on your side to implant some rules at this field. Better yet, get an AMA charter and a slate of officers, including a safety officer.

People come into this hobby, lots of them thinking this is fun and games, and these models are toys. Well, it should be fun, yes, but with adult rules, not playground chaos.
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Old 09-03-2006, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Raynman,
Sorry to hear about the loss of your 4 Star 60, I was finishing mine this past winter and was following Kmotts build thread where you were a contributor, hope you can rebuild, it's hard to find a more "honest" airplane than a 4 Star As to the situation at that field, there is nothing I could add after majortoms contribution.

Majortom, if you get up to the Lancaster area anytime, check out the Guildhall Fun Flyers, great bunch of guys, even if most are from NH
Pete
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Old 09-03-2006, 05:25 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

ORIGINAL: Cyclic Hardover

You know, this may sound kind of cheesey but if you insist onflying in that place. Get one of those cheap Hobbico Freq scanners
In this case, a frequency scanner probably wouldn’t have helped. There’s a pretty good chance that raynman already had his radio on when the other radio turned on.

I’ve heard of clubs coming to an even/odd channel agreement when flying fields were close together. Of course this only works when you are organized and have away to enforce rules. I doubt you could accomplish this at an unregulated site.


Raynman,
Maybe you can get everyone to come together at ONE of the two sites and informally create a ‘club.’ Still not as good as having organized frequency control, but better than having the potential conflict a few hundred feet away and not in sight.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:57 AM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Two separate flying fields separated by a road....sounds like trouble to me and a really dumb idea, if you ask me. I wouldn't fly there, period.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:19 AM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

I don't think he owes you anything but he was inconsiderate.

ALL of you should be carrying a Hobbico frequency checker. You don't turn on your transmitter until you turn on your frequency checker and validate your channel is clear.
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Old 09-04-2006, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

Ok i like the radios at both fields idea. Kinda inexpensive and might work most of the time[2 way] If ur not to strapped for cash i'de get the poke tracker 3 radio. At least it will change freq's for u and maybe save urs and others planes.
A $200 radio to save all of ur models when not at the main field is cheap insurance.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

I fly Spektrum technology in glow using 4 to 8 servos and have no worries about someone else's radio gear. Also, there is more new 2.4 ghz radios on the way up to 16 channels.

I am not pushing Horizon's stuff, I am using it because it is the only choice at this time. I am eagerly waiting for a module system I can use in my 9C and get rid of a bunch of wye harnesses I have in a couple of 8 servo airplanes.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

I think you got a serious issue of frequency mismanagement here, most clubs use a peg board system to control use of frequencies, and all modellers know whats going on, this site your flying at sounds a pretty dangerous place to fly, and with the two sites being apart i would only expect what has happen in this situation
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Old 04-15-2007, 04:22 PM
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Default RE: I was shot down today.....

isuzu john,

I think your a little behind the times DUDE, This was over 6 months ago.........LOL

Talk about Snail Mail........ LOL

Good Luck
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Old 04-15-2007, 04:31 PM
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R
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