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DX-7 related crash?

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Old 02-14-2007, 04:49 PM
  #1  
boosted180
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Default DX-7 related crash?

i just lost my 27% katana yesterday. i started a roll and when i neutralized the controls, it wouldnt stop rolling. i was completely locked out and it just continued spiraling right into the ground.

before this i was using a hitec optic 6 and this specktrum radio has been WAY better. absolutely no glitches or anything funny (unlinke the optic 6).

but i dont know if my crash was due to interference or signal issues. i checked everything before i flew. range check was fine, both reciever batteries were good. swicthes were good.

the only thing i can think that it might be is that i hooked up my batteries on a y-harness to the 2 aileron channels. 2 batteries, 2 switches to two different channels. i have always done this in other radios and other planes with no problems. but now i'm thinking that maybe under load, the aileron servos draw so much current, that there's nothing left for the receiver and that's why i was locked out????

next time i'll just plug the batteries into the battery slot on the receiver instead of on a y-harness to the aileron servo slots in the reciever.

but normally this is not a bad practice is it? usually people just plug the batteries into any unused slot in the receiver and if there are no unused slots, it should be ok to use a y-harness, right? are the specktrum receivers different? do you HAVE TO use the battery slot for the battery?

other than this, i cannot think of what else could have possibly caused my crash! or maybe the dx link is not "bullet-proof" after all?

i was using 4.8 volt 1100mah packs. i checked them just before flying adn they were at 5.4 volts under no load and under load they were about 5.1-5.2 volts.




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Old 02-14-2007, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Seems like any problem with DX-7 always seems to involve a "spaghetti" set up. Multiple this's and tha'ts....

It's not a problem with 2.4ghz....

A bum connection in that Y-harness and you're done. Even the Good Lord can't save ya then.

battery/switch/connector problems will continue to bring down airplanes regardless of the radio technology.

No radio works without power.

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Old 02-14-2007, 07:20 PM
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Clark L
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Did throttle appear to go to the failsafe position?
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Old 02-14-2007, 07:59 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Spektrum radios are extra sensitive to power loss. I think you just didn't have a big enough battery capacity and browned it out. The thing is, an old-school radio will come back almost instantly from a brownout, whereas a Spektrum will lock you out for several seconds.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:07 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

4 milliseconds to be precise. That's 4/1000's of a second to the laypeople. Roughly 1/0th of a blink of an eye.

Unless you're Superman..you'd never notice.

My money is on a mickey mouse set-up that cashed in the model..

Of course, this has never happened with any other system.



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Old 02-14-2007, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

you should move to 6.0 volts on all planes....ya get more servo torque and speed,,plus ya get more reserve power. i fly double redundancy duralite lithium ion packs in the 4000 to 4800mah range using 2 seperate voltage regulators and 2 no-fail switches on all large birds. i use a 3rd li-ion/regulator at 5.3 v, for my engine power to isolate the radio from engine. sure there is a weight penalty but its worth it. i got tons o juice and can fly all day
the idea is to have a 0 failure constant.
also solder any servo extensions then shrinkwrap or bind to again try for a 0 failure element.\\

in my systems the power switches are plugged into the rx battery channel and into a power regulator (a real good investment) for multi servo set ups or into another free rx channel/y cord set-up for a smaller bird.

as fer the dx-7.......its represents the fututre and i love it.

i sold my futaba 14 mz cause of flight grabs,dropouts etc.....lost a qq yak last summer due to a grab

i miss alot of the progamming options on the 14mz, but i would never trade my dx-7.
never a prob, and its seems quicker too........most likely ya had a connection failure or a voltage drop.
running digital servos at 4.7 is risky business....... and if you were running group analogs on a 27% size at 4.7v...its amazing it survived its maiden flight...on a plane that big the g forces and loading forces are intense on a servo

hope this helps..


flyflyflyflyflyflyflyfly

s.g.t.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:57 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Check here
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5402123


ORIGINAL: boosted180

i just lost my 27% katana yesterday. i started a roll and when i neutralized the controls, it wouldnt stop rolling. i was completely locked out and it just continued spiraling right into the ground.

before this i was using a hitec optic 6 and this specktrum radio has been WAY better. absolutely no glitches or anything funny (unlinke the optic 6).

but i dont know if my crash was due to interference or signal issues. i checked everything before i flew. range check was fine, both reciever batteries were good. swicthes were good.

the only thing i can think that it might be is that i hooked up my batteries on a y-harness to the 2 aileron channels. 2 batteries, 2 switches to two different channels. i have always done this in other radios and other planes with no problems. but now i'm thinking that maybe under load, the aileron servos draw so much current, that there's nothing left for the receiver and that's why i was locked out????

next time i'll just plug the batteries into the battery slot on the receiver instead of on a y-harness to the aileron servo slots in the reciever.

but normally this is not a bad practice is it? usually people just plug the batteries into any unused slot in the receiver and if there are no unused slots, it should be ok to use a y-harness, right? are the specktrum receivers different? do you HAVE TO use the battery slot for the battery?

other than this, i cannot think of what else could have possibly caused my crash! or maybe the dx link is not "bullet-proof" after all?

i was using 4.8 volt 1100mah packs. i checked them just before flying adn they were at 5.4 volts under no load and under load they were about 5.1-5.2 volts.




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Old 02-14-2007, 09:52 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?


ORIGINAL: boosted180

i just lost my 27% katana yesterday. i started a roll and when i neutralized the controls, it wouldnt stop rolling. i was completely locked out and it just continued spiraling right into the ground.

before this i was using a hitec optic 6 and this specktrum radio has been WAY better. absolutely no glitches or anything funny (unlinke the optic 6).

but i dont know if my crash was due to interference or signal issues. i checked everything before i flew. range check was fine, both reciever batteries were good. swicthes were good.

the only thing i can think that it might be is that i hooked up my batteries on a y-harness to the 2 aileron channels. 2 batteries, 2 switches to two different channels. i have always done this in other radios and other planes with no problems. but now i'm thinking that maybe under load, the aileron servos draw so much current, that there's nothing left for the receiver and that's why i was locked out????

next time i'll just plug the batteries into the battery slot on the receiver instead of on a y-harness to the aileron servo slots in the reciever.

but normally this is not a bad practice is it? usually people just plug the batteries into any unused slot in the receiver and if there are no unused slots, it should be ok to use a y-harness, right? are the specktrum receivers different? do you HAVE TO use the battery slot for the battery?

other than this, i cannot think of what else could have possibly caused my crash! or maybe the dx link is not "bullet-proof" after all?

i was using 4.8 volt 1100mah packs. i checked them just before flying adn they were at 5.4 volts under no load and under load they were about 5.1-5.2 volts.

G'day Mate,
How long were you flying before you crashed?
What did you battery tester tell you after you crashed?
Did you check your switches, leads & servos after the crash?
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:23 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

i dont think it's a 2.4ghz problem. like i said, the radio link has been rock solid since i've had it and absolutely no glitches or anything weird (like with my optic 6) at all.

the battery voltage, swithces were fine after the crash. connections were fine. no loose wires, etc.

it was my 3rd flight of the day, about 7 minutes into the flight. i usually fly for 13 minutes. my two 1100mah packs are usually good for at least 6 flights. and i checked the voltage just before my 3rd flight (the one that crashed).

so my question is this: is it not a good practice to plug the switches (battery) into a channel that's occupied, using a y-harness (sharing that channel with a servo and the battery)? or should i always plug the battery only to the battery slot in the receiver or an empty channel? i've always "shared" a channel with a servo and teh battery on my smaller glow planes and have never had a problem. but then again, i didnt use digital servos and they probably didnt draw that much current. and they werent specktrum receivers, so maybe it's ok to do this on other receivers but not specktrum? i'll call horizon tomorrow and find out what they think.....
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:48 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Partner, nobody can troubleshoot your problem via the internet. It's the age old "intermittent" that brought you down.

In 30yrs of R/C...I've gone out a million times on the "crash recovery detail" only to find that Ernie's radio worked just fine at the crash site...despite his claims of "no control".

Maybe the model snapped in.....maybe the switch was intermittent....maybe this, that or something else.

You simply don't know.

For certain though, the more complex you make the hookup....the more vulnerable you become.

Send the whole wad in....let Horizon sort it out.

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Old 02-14-2007, 10:57 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

G'day Mate,
Was your Katana, the CMPro 140 size?
I have one ready to put together, this will be my third, I love em, & will be using my DX7 radio in it, it will have an OS 160FX for power, & I will be using a 1700Mah nicad pack, with 1 digital servo on the rudder & JR 539's on the other controls, I have used this setup on a Giles 202, same motor, same servos & I had no power problems, using 1 large battery pack.
But I would use the battery port for one pack & a spare socket for the other, no Y leads.
Just my way of doing things.


PS. How old was the switch/switches that you were using?
They have been known to fail under load, & then test fine after, the best way to test a switch is to use a low ohm meter, & check the resistance accross the contacts of the switch, it should be less than 0.5 of an Ohm.
Or test the voltage drop across the switch, there should not be any voltage drop.
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Old 02-14-2007, 11:18 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

boosted180, is that you Brian? Sorry to hear of this.

This is Dan, did this happen this afternoon?

I hope the engine and electronics survived.

If the batteries are still intact, put them on a discharger (at least 2 amps, more if you can) for a couple of minutes and then check each cell's voltage.

I had several packs go bad on me last year. Definitely go with 5 cell packs for a little extra reserve voltage. Digital servos can draw lots of current at maxed out deflections, especially if there is any binding in the control system, this will drop the voltage down significantly and might have caused the Rx to drop out due to low voltage.

I've been planning on getting that Hangar 9 in-line amp meter to check some of my setups.

So far, my DX-7 has been flawless in my Double Vision (AR7000 Rx) and several parkflyers (AR6000 & AR6100)

BTW, it seems the first batch of AR6100 Rx's have been sold out.

I'll be setting up my 100cc Extra 260 with the DX-7.
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:57 AM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

hey dan. yeah, it's me. i'll be getting another katana and in the new one i'll use 5 cells. but do you think my hooking up of the batteries to a y-harness to share the slots with the aileron servos had anything to do with the failure?

how do you hook up your batteries in your double-vision? do you even have enough open channels to use 2 battery packs on two separate slots? or do you just hook both up to a y-harness and plug into the battery slot?

i'm sure it's some kind of a voltage drop problem, b/c i've never had any other issues with the dx-7. i also dont think it's a signal problem b/c if the receiver loses signal from the radio, the servos will just go into "fail-safe" which is the neutral positions (established when you bind the system), correct? but i crashed b/c it DID NOT go into neutral. instead the servos got "stuck" at the last input position (which caused it continue to roll until hitting the ground).

what's your email address?

thanks.
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:23 AM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

ORIGINAL: Andrew McGregor
I think you just didn't have a big enough battery capacity and browned it out.
You are confusing capacity with the ability to deliver voltage under load. Capacity has nothing to do with that. For instance I have some 1400 NiMH packs that have a very low internal impedance. Under a 1 amp load they will drop about .2 volts. I also have some 2700 NiMH packs that will drop nearly a full volt under the same 1 amp load. Twice the capacity, and nearly 5 times the voltage drop. It ALL has to do with the internal impedance of the cells in the pack. Bigger capacity does NOT always mean better performance.
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:55 AM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Hi Boosted,
First of all why are you using two batteries? I expect the reason is to provide redundancy in case one battery should fail. This is the reason that I use twin batteries. However, from what you have described you only have half the system. In order to provide true redundancy you need two batteries that are isolated from each other in case of a short circuit in one system. An external short circuit in a battery is relatively rare. The normal failure mode for NiCd and Nimh is for a cell to go short circuit internally, which means that you loose that cell but the battery continues to provide power. The bad news is that if you are only using 4 cell batteries, then dropping to 3 cells will no longer drive your Rx. A short circuit is quite likely in a switch or in the harness. Again a dead short is quite unlikely and would be instantly noticed as it would go on fire. I have only seen this happen twice over the years. More lokely you get a "soft" short in a switch due to corrosion, crud etc, which flattens that battery quickly, possibly whilst switched off. If the other battery is just connected in parrallel, then this will soon be flattened too. For this reason we need to use a diode in each battery lead, and since this wil drop 1/2 a volt, we need 5 cell batteries.
Using a regulator has a number of benefits since the regulator guarantees to provide the corrrect O/P voltage provided that I/P voltage and current draw are within the specified range. The regulator also isolates this battery from a second, similarly configured battery. Ideally, run two switches and have two leads going directly to the RX rails.
This is true redunadancy.
Regards,

John
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:00 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

i'm sure it's some kind of a voltage drop problem, b/c i've never had any other issues with the dx-7. i also dont think it's a signal problem b/c if the receiver loses signal from the radio, the servos will just go into "fail-safe" which is the neutral positions (established when you bind the system), correct? but i crashed b/c it DID NOT go into neutral. instead the servos got "stuck" at the last input position (which caused it continue to roll until hitting the ground).
Nope, the failsafe on the DX7 doesn't go to set positions (except for the throttle), it holds the last command.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?


ORIGINAL: Phaedrus-MMVI

ORIGINAL: Andrew McGregor
I think you just didn't have a big enough battery capacity and browned it out.
You are confusing capacity with the ability to deliver voltage under load. Capacity has nothing to do with that. For instance I have some 1400 NiMH packs that have a very low internal impedance. Under a 1 amp load they will drop about .2 volts. I also have some 2700 NiMH packs that will drop nearly a full volt under the same 1 amp load. Twice the capacity, and nearly 5 times the voltage drop. It ALL has to do with the internal impedance of the cells in the pack. Bigger capacity does NOT always mean better performance.
Actually, I knew all that... I perhaps should have said current capacity. In any case, it sounds like the classic Spektrum power dropout problem.
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Brian, I'm only running a single battery pack for my Double Vision's AR-7000 Rx. It is a Fromeco Peerless 4800mah 2S2P & a Fromeco regulator hooked thru a JR HD switch into the batt slot. Your Y harnessing the batteries into a servo lead is not a problem as long as the leads and connectors are all good.

I run a Y harness to the R ailerons and another Y harness for the L ailerons, 2 elev servos, 1 rudder, 1 throttle, and 1 ign kill (RCAT Systems) switch on the gear channel. 8 digital servos (7 high torque) and working fine so far.

Battery redundancy depends on how one looks at it. John is correct in his earlier post to basically have two completely separate batteries with a diode or some sort of Bat-Share device so that the load will draw from the "good" battery if one battery fails.

However, I experienced a situation last year (the bad battery packs) on my 1/3 Cap232 where I had 2 out of 5 Nimh cells go bad ON BOTH PACKS that I was running. But since I was running them in parallel thru two switches, I was basically running a 5S2P battery pack with 4 bad cells. So 6 out of ten cells seemed to keep the voltage up high enough to not lock out the Rx (JR PCM).

If I was using a Bat-Share device, then it could have been worst as neither battery could have sustained the voltage.

Anyways, this is just another example of why we always need to be vigilant about maintenance on our aircraft. There are way, way, too many single point failures that could easily doom our planes, but we try to do our best and go fly and have fun.

Failure point includes my feeble brain....last week I actually took off with my Andrew Jesky Extra 330 without hooking up the ailerons[X(] luckily I managed to think a little while it was inverted and used rudder to bring it back for a safe landing It is using the AR6100 Rx and I have flown it very far doing IMAC sequences without any issues at all.

you could email me at airbike711@aol.com or just send me a PM(Private Message) on RCU
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

I didn't see an answer to this question. Did the motor go into failsafe position? If you were rolling I am sure that you had the power up.

There is nothing wrong with 2 switches y harnessed into servos. ON a 27% plane with 2 1100 batteries you shouldn't see enough amp draw voltage drop to shut down the receiever. If it was one battery lead I would say maybe, but not with 2 leads going into the receiver.
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

no, the throttle did not go into fail-safe position. i was just locked out and everything stayed at the last input position including throttle. i was locked out for about 3 seconds and then i regained control, but it was too late.

i had just installed 2 new switches, batteries, y-harnesses and even 2 new servos (i went from analog to digital). b/c this is actually the 2nd time this happened. the first time, i rolled, got locked out for 3 seconds, but had enough altitude that when i regained control, i was able to save it. when i went home i checked every single thing i could think of but since i didnt find anything, i thought maybe it's an intermittent problem with one of the switches, batteries, etc. so i replaced EVERYTHING! since then, i've had about a dozen flights without any problems.

but now that it happened again, i'm more inclined to think it's the receiver just acting up intermittently. i'm going to send it in to horizon and see what they can find. i'll request a new receiver whether they find something or not.
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:35 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

How old are the two packs? What kind of charger are you using? What kind of cells? Do you know if there are other 2.4ghz sources nearby?
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:19 AM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

Did you re bind the receiver to have true idle failsafe?
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:00 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?


[quote]ORIGINAL: quist

Did you re bind the receiver to have true idle failsafe?

yes, i did re-bind the receiver. however it's hard to tell if it's a situation where it would have gone to fail-safe, b/c it actually takes about 3 seconds for fail-safe to kick in when the receiver loses signal from the transmitter. try it yourself: turn on both transmitter and receiver, then throttle up, then turn off transmitter. you'll see that it'll take about 2-3 seconds for the throttle servo to go back to idle (fail-safe position). by this time, you probably will have crashed already if you're flying low. so you wont be able to tell if it's a signal issue or something else.

but in anycase, at this point, i'm next to 100% sure it's not a problem with batteries, switches, y-harness, etc. it was an overkill for me to go and change out everything after my first incident, but i did it precisely to prevent it from happening again. but now taht it did, what else could it be besides the receiver? there's a very small chance that it's my setup, but everyone's saying there's nothing wrong with using the same receiver slot for both battery and servo. so, i'll let you guys know what horizon finds when i send it in to them.



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Old 02-19-2007, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

When I shut off the tx it is less then a second to go to idle. I have done it with the engine running and it shuts down without delay. It does take a few seconds to come back after I shut off the tx and turn it back on.
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:40 AM
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Default RE: DX-7 related crash?

I'll offer this as a possibility. On/off switches are the one truly weak point in any radio system. A switch that works fine on the ground may fail during flight (and then be just fine back on the ground). I've had it happen where vibration causes the switch to intermittently disconnect. THAT particular problem nearly drove me insane trying to find the glitch (with an old Tower Gold Case back in the day). I don't use any switch at all anymore, I use two aileron extensions as a 'switch'. Plugged together, and it's ON. I put it underneath a small hatch with a magnetic closure so there's no chance anything can snag it.
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