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Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

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Old 02-18-2007, 10:43 AM
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Pa-18cub150
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Default Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!


I am the proud new owner of a Great Planes Cessna 182 ARF. The cool thing is the last owner installed flaps. Unfortunately he had problems with it ballooning up on him when he applied them.

I thought that cense I have a computer radio this would no problem just mix in down elevator with my flaps.

Not so simple. I found that when I slave the elevator to the flap knob it doesn’t make any difference where my end points are. Neutral for the elevator is always in the center of the flap position knob with positive and negative through according to % of mix.

This is not acceptable is there some way I can make this work? I am sure that I am over looking a simple solution. But the more that I mess with it, the more frustrated I get .

I am using a Futaba T6exaps transmitter, Hitec Supreme HFD-08RD RCD3800 SS receiver, and Jr.537 standard servos with an 1100mA 6V battery.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Hello,
It sounds like you are having the same (?) problem I am having. See my post and answer from Futaba rep.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5309707/tm.htm
I will be honest....... I have NOT tried the set up she explained. I have been so busy since the post and I am looking out at a BUNCH of snow so flying is a long way off. (At least in my mind right now)
Maybe someone else can shed some light on this situation. What about it?? Anyone else have the same problem / or solution? ......... Thanks.... lownslo

Bob in Indy
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Hi Bob

It looks like we are having exactly the same problems. Unfortunately I don’t think Miss Hunt quite understands your question? I think she is referring to using you flaps in an up position as spoilers there by negating the ballooning tendency.

I have read other posts where spoilers were used on the Cessna and caused very bad spins.

I don’t know if I an misinterpreting her post but from what I understand hear idea will not work for either of us.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Pa-18cub150,
As I said..... I was busy and didn't read her reply very well. Thanks for setting me straight. It is a good thing I didn't get to try her option, since my sailplane has been put up for work on other projects. I opted for flaps instead of spoilers anyway. I had a tread started on the subject of "flaps or spoilers", and all answers pointed to flaps. I dont think that flaps up would not act very well anyway to achieve what I was trying to accomplish. (Less, shorter, glide paths for smaller strips). I guess we still need an answer. ....lownslo
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

I don't see a T6EXAPS listed on the Futaba site, so I will assume you have a 6EXAS transmitter. When I open the manual it identifies the radio as 6EXAP. Odd.

This radio can mix any two channels on a user mix. Looking at the manual I see that you can mix two channels and that the values go from +100 to -100. Many people miss the -100 part of the range. Often this solves the kinds of problems you describe.

I don't have your radio so I can't try this myself. I don't see any reference to a switch to control the mix so I presume it is active all the time. Here is how I would use it.

1) connect your flaps to Y cable which goes in channel 6. Be sure that the EPA and any other trim features for channel 6 are set to zero or 100, which ever is the default setting.

Be sure the flap dial is set for the flaps to be all the way up before you start trimming. Remove your servo arms and reset them to be as close to neutral as possible. Use your adjustable control arms to get them properly trimmed to neutral. Now turn the dial to see if the flaps move in the right direction. Use servo rev if needed to correct direction and readjust as needed.

I would suggest you use the EPA setting to get the flaps set to about 1/3 flaps, 30 degrees when you turn the flap dial all the way. Use the flap limiter to control the end points so the flaps come up to the proper neutral.

2) Now use your mixer to mix channel 6 as master and channel 2 as slave. I would not expect you to have to put any adjustments in for channel 6. I would also not expect you to have to put numbers into Channel 2, elevator, in order to keep the elevator neutral when the flap is all the way up, but you might. If you have to put numbers into the elevator for it to stay neutral, then do what you have to do. You may have to use pos or neg numbers into the mixer to get the elevator to be at neutral.

3) Move the flap to full down, which, if you follow my suggestion, is about 30% flaps. Elevator should not move.

Now enter numbers into the mixer to get some down elevator. How much is different for every plane. I would suggest starting with 10% down for the 30% flaps. Test it Very high till you feel you know exactly how it will behave.

That is the procedure that most closely matches how I have used mixes on every computer radio I have ever used. If you don't do it in the right sequence, then you may have problems getting things to align properly.

I am guessing but I hope that will help. Let me know if it works.
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Aeajr,
Thanks for the information. I am rushing here.......got to get to work.
Bottom line. I think I found my problem. My receiver is very easy to reach the crystal. I was planning on using
2 channels. and two different Transmitters. One is a NON computer 6 channel FUT. and the other a 6 ch. Futaba,
computer radio. The problem was in the setting of the elevator with the non computer radio. I don't have the
flexibility for good EPA and matching up centers. I need a new radio anyway!! DX7 Spektrum???... thanks...lownslo
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

It should be very easy to match up your computer and non computer radios, especially since the 6exa does not have a sub trim function so you should be getting to neutral elevator with the linkage. If the trims of both radios are centered when you do that, then you should come up correct regardless of which transmitter you use.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:23 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Two solution to getting the flap/elevator mix to work is to limit the flap knob so it does not travel past the center position.

There should be a limiter lever included with that radio that goes on over the flap control knob to limit its travel (you can find the neutral position by mixing ch6 to ch2 at 100% and switching the mix on and off as you turn the knob until no affect is seen on the elevator).

If you don't mind doing a little soldering (and voiding the warranty), take the back off the radio (remove the crystal first, or it will try and pull the transmitter board off with the rear case), remove the red wire (+5v) from the flap control pc board, and insert a 4.7k ohm resister (1/4 or 1/8 watt should be sufficient) between the red wire and the pc board terminal. Since the flap potentiometer is also 4.7k ohm, this will in effect set the knob travel between center and one end of the servo travel.

The direction of flap travel can then be set with the servo reverse controls, and the ATV and trim will still work. The elevator mix direction can be set anywhere from -100 to +100%, so direction can be controller there also. As you have no doubt discovered, the ATV on the flap channel does not affect the mixing (I tried setting the ATV to 0% on one end of the flap control - works great for just the flaps, but the mixing doesn't recognize it).
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:06 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Hi Aeajr


Thanks I see what I was doing wrong.

My first mistake was trying to make all of my adjustments at once.

My next mistake was to make the center of the servo arm and the servo travel in the center. I was confusing servo neutral and control surface neutral.

Thanks for the help
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:15 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Glad I could help.

My flap servo arms are set to almost fully to one end of ther travel when the flaps are at neutral. This way I can get a full 90 degree flap travel.
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Old 02-20-2007, 05:34 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

This is lownslo, aeajr,
I am going to try again to work on the set up using the two radios. (channel 12 & 50). I have been in RC for 7 years now, and radio / linkage set up is one of my favorite tasks in setting up a new plane. Sometimes I get "tunnel vision" and miss the solution which is usually simple. I will let you know whats going on after this session. I may have some memory trim issues on the computer radio which I will try to cancel out.
PS. My servo arms are the same as yours on flaps..... (at the one extreme, to get full travel)..... lownslo
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

This article seems appropriate to this thread:

Basic Set-up
by Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums

Here is my basic set-up procedure, regardless of plane or radio brand. This
assumes a six channel computer radio controlling a full house plane that
has flaps and retractable landing gear. I will touch on what you can do if
you don't have flaps or landing gear later in the post. If you have more or
less channels the steps will be the same, but the options will be a little
different.

Hitec/Futaba Channel Assignments
JR, Airtronics and others may use different sequence. Doesn't matter

Aileron in 1 - If you have two servos, you use a Y cable
Elevator in 2
Throttle in 3
Rudder in 4
Landing gear in 5
Flaps in 6 - If you have two servos, you use a Y cable

I usually power up the radio and select a new memory position. If I am
replacing an existing profile that I am no longer using, I reset all values
to stock settings of 0 or 100% as called for in each case. Most systems
have reset feature that does this for you.

This procedure assumes you have your servos mounted and the control
rods/cables are installed, but not yet attached to the servos.

Power up the plane. If this is an electric plane, I use a 4 cell receiver
pack battery rather than the motor battery attached to the ESC as
I don't want the motor in play right now. Or you can remove the prop so you
don't get hit if the motor starts.

Check for servo direction. When you work the servo, will the servo move the
surfaces in the proper direction? If not, you use the servo reverse feature
to change the direction. If you are using a standard radio that doesn't
have servo reverse, then you need to remount the servo so the arms move in
the right direction. You might have to mount the servo upside down or have
the
servo arm swing from the other side of the servo.

Now that they are going in the right direction, I can center the servos. To
center the surfaces and the servos, I remove the servo arm from the servo
and connect the servo arm to the control rod. I make sure that all the EPA,
subtrims, trims and the like are all at default settings in the computer
radio.

Now turn on the the radio and plane. The servos will move to their center
point automatically if the sticks are centered. For a glow or gas plane,
the throttle servo will move to its end point full off as the throttle stick
should be full off at this point.

Hold the surfaces centered with one hand and put servo arm back
on the servo while it is connected to the rods or cables, so that
the surfaces are centered as close as possible when the arm is on. If I
have a
screw on/off clevis at the servo end, I will make adjustments so that I can
put the servo arm on and the surface will be sitting properly centered and
the servo arm will have free clearence to move back and forth. Before I put
the screw in I move the stick to insure there is no binding or interferece.

When I am happy with the position, I set the servo arm screw. If necessary I
might add some adjustment at the surface end If it has an adjustable clevis
to further center the surface. This is especially important if you don't
have the ailerons or the flaps each on its own channel. I want them 99%
right from the mechanicals even if I can adjust them from the radio. This
will give me the best use of the servo's capabilites.

Only when this is done do I do any final centering using the radio. On my
radios, menu that is used to center the servos is called subtrim. AFTER you
have
done as much mechanical centering as you can, go to subtrim. If your radio
does not have this feature, then use the trim tabs next to the sticks to do
final centering.

If each aileron or flap is on its own channel, then I can do more from the
radio for the final fine tuning. However I still want to have these
centered as best as possible from the mechanical set-up rather than put big
values into the transmitter.


Then I would decide on what I want for dual rates and exponential on each
channel. Whether you use dual rates or exponential is completely a personal
decision. On transmitters that will allow it, I would suggest moving away
from the use of dual rates and go to dual expo settings. My planes are
typically set-up with the "high" rate setting as 30% expo and the low rate
as 60% expo, but this is up to you and is heavily dependent on the type of
flying you do.

If you want to better understand DR and Expo, read this article:
http://www.rccyberflyer.com/forum/sh...?p=780#post780


Now, if you don't have flaps, and you have your ailerons on separate
channels, 1 & 6 in this example, then you may need to use the flapperon mix
so you can adjust them individually from the radio and set aileron
differential if you like. This also allows you to retask the ailerons as
flapperons or spoilerons for landing.

If you don't have retractable landing gear, some radios will let you put the
second aileron on channel 5, or the second flap servo on channel 5.

Throttle set-up

If this is a glow plane, then you use the same procedure to adjust the servo
that will control the throttle. If this is an electric plane, you should
follow the procedure recommended by the ESC maker.

That would be basic set-up.

Once you get to the field, be sure to check for channel conflict with
another flyer.

Then perform a range check before you even think about flying.

Make sure you have the right model selected on your computer radio.

Confirm all surfaces are moving in the right direction

Confirm there is no binding of any of the control rods, cables or the
surfaces.

Confirm everything is centered.

When you do your first flight ASSUME THERE IS A MISTAKE or that the plane is
out of trim because you are going to have to be prepared to deal with a
problem very quickly.

Once you get it into the air and flying at a good height, then you start to
check the trim and make whatever changes are needed. Remember that a
handling problem may be due to an incorrectly set CG. This might be masked
by adjustments you can make in trim, but that will make the plane fly
inefficiently and may even make it dangerous. So be sure your CG is right as
well.

I hope this has been helpful.

Other Resources:

If you are helping a new flyer and plan to teach them to fly, here is the
method I use to teach flying:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499281
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5767

What Goes on Which Stick
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=234

What you need to know about receivers
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=258

For beginners - Computer Radios and Surface Mixes
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157053

Range Checks
http://www.*********.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7753

Servo Connectors
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392644

Radio information resources for new flyers
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520811

Setting up a glider with a 4 servo wing
http://www.gliders.dk/triming_and_se...der_wi_eng.htm
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:03 AM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Hoooo Raaa..........
They are set. I must say though........ there was some "new" trim memory applied on the computer radio. I set BOTH radios back to neutral AND set my trim memory back to neutral on the computer radio. Mechanical was centered with the NON comp. radio. No matter WHAT I did..... the computer radio, (everything centered, including wiping out the "old" trim memory), there was STILL a difference of about 3/16 to 1/4" elevator between the two radios. (??? Why I don't know???). I don't really care though since my computer radio was able to accept the trim memory to get the elevator neutral with BOTH radios. I have all the travel I need and the geometry at the servo and linkage is great for the flaps and elevator. ........ lownslo
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:03 PM
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Default RE: Mixing flaps & elevator with Futaba T6EXAPS HELP!

Yes, I have one plane that is set for a standard radio and a comptuer radio and I have to make the standard radio the one I set the plane for, then adapt the computer radio to the set-up as I have much more flexability with the computer radio.

Congrats on getting it done!
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