Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Did you have one go bad on you? What happened?

Electriceddie

If it doesn't WORK, it doesn't matter what it costs....

I don't have any radio problems. I have never had any issues with interfernce that poeple say they have, which I really believe for the most part is usually pilot error. My Futaba 9CAPS has never let me down. But I was thinking of buying one for some of the advantages they offer. But with my track record I don't know if it would be any advantage for me. After all the months of have been tracking these units and reading about the issues they have. There seems to be just as much trouble with DX-7's as there are with any other 72Mhz radio.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Interesting opinion.

rino

My Feedback: (121)

My opinion: I think if you were to look at actual number of reported issues you would find the DX 7 has had fewer issues than most if not all 72 mhz systems. I was one of the unfortunate ones to experience the AR6100 firmware issue but there were really very few of us. Out of probably many 1000's sold there were very few that actually encountered problems.

I have had 72 mhz crystals fail and rx's glitch and never thought twice about the technology even though the crashes cost me some big bucks.

My prediction: Within one year you will be flying a 2.4 g solution.

NikolayTT

Hi Aerobob,

I am in fact in that business for more than 15 years, but I do not make statements related to the profit there, I am on the
research-and-experiment, not on Sales-and-Marketing side and that is why I posted in another forum the question about
the Mobile Phones vs. RC-Spread Spectrum; please check that too. There is no fun killing someone on a RC-show ... and
the things on the Settings of the RC-Sytems might be overrun by ... malfunctioning Mobile Phone around, because the
power such phone emit in the antena could be even up to n x 100 mW on 2.4 GHz, while the RC-Spread Spectrum
system is limited to not more than 10mW... and its Receiver might go just "blind"... Well, for sure the probability is
low, maybe lower than broken servo, but servo can be cheked and replaced while you cannot check all the phones
in the RC-show if they are OK. Of course nothing is perfect, and the discussion should find out what is to be imroved
and not to tell every body: Forget about better Systems, we got the best(!?!) one and that will be here forever. as
some pople based on their "extensive" testing would like to tell.

For them, the suggestion is to get their Spread Spektrum system to the best Mobile-Phone Repair Workshop around
and ask the guys there for "little testing" with their instruments; then the talk might change to more professional one.

Also, beside the Spread spectrum, there are other and mybe better systems, for example Mobile-WLAN and also
the ZigBee and others too in very intensive developments by now. As reference in easy to follow explanation please
check the very responsible Publication of Dieter Perkuhn in ELEKTOR ELECTRONICS, December - 2006. That is lot
more serious than most of the post on the RCU, or maybe it happned that I missed the best statements in RCU on
that issue.

Regards,
Nick

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

NikolayTT - so it seems you have not used any 2.4 Spektrum equipment for your airplanes?

Flypaper 2

Nick:
The 10 mw DX system is used for the ground car systems where range is a small factor.

Tommy_Gun

Challenge for Nikolay,

How about you buy a DX7 and then prove to us you can make it fail in a real world situation that would be seen at an RC club field.

The only conditions being that you have the system properly installed and bound and batteries properly charged and the the system suffers no abuse to induce failure. Video such testing and show us all that you can reproduce failure as you have alluded to in here with all your years of experience.

THEN come in and spread all the "sky is falling" fear you want.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Or, in other words.... as we said when we returned from 'Nam......
"If you haven't been there, shut the f-=-- UP!"
[:@]

rmh

jee- I thought I was bad with my "chicken little "
(which was not funny and I only wrote because I don't fly and have nothing to add)
how about this as an additional safety feature?
In that my radio does not know it is an inferior design?

wildnloose

I did a little testing for my own sake....

I used my friends DX7/AR7000 equipped plane and flew the plane in the path of a 2.4 DSSS wireless T1 system. I know this transmitter it putting out 1watt thru 135ft of xmission line into a 6ft (6db) dish. I had no issues at all flying the plane at all. I flew in the path for about 7 mins and never had a lockout, nor anything bad happen.

I then used the same plane setup to fly around with while I had a portable xmitter pushing out [email protected] into a 9db gain directional antenna. My friend flew around while I kept the antenna pointed at his plane the entire time. Not a problem, and I really did expect to see something bad happen.

I will never trust this stuff 100% (its RF stupid) but from my non-professional, non-scientific tests I am comfident that this system is pretty good, better that what we had before. Especially since I just witnessed another guy get shot down this past Sunday (and all he got for it was "sorry").

p.s. - I plan to do the same testing when another friend receives his Futaba 6 channel ss transmitter.

rino

My Feedback: (121)

I'm more interested in whether the guy who had the crash sent is stuff in or not. If not this is sort of a useless thread but certainly entertaining.

rmh

FWIW-- when one sends in equipment for repair - the techs' responsibility is to bring the equipment to current specs
that's it.
You --as the equipment owner must make sure that all of your support equipment is compatible and correctly setup for use with the radio.
I ain't blaming YOU or anyone who has radio problems for screwing up .
The fact is -- the combinations of equipment and installations and environment--is endless.
If possible have on hand a cheap foamy model which you can fly -and crash -if it comes to that - to check out your radio if it does " funnys". I have a 400 sq in foamie that will fly any radio reciever very easily and can be seen (barely)for 1/4 mile .

Over the years (eons) I found that simply placing radio in a different environment - sometimes clears up a problem
Foamies are the modeler's gift from God --they were sent down from heaven to allow us to test stuff at next to zero cost risk.

rino

My Feedback: (121)

I agree. I have a 400 sq in foamy that I do the same with. If he dies he dies.

kgfly

I have been flying Spektrum in my helis for about a year with no problems in hundreds of flights. I have also been monitoring a number of forums for flight reports and crash reports. The vast majority of failures have been tracked down to issues other than the RF link, with most being Rx power-supply weaknesses. The AR6100 was found to have a bug and the problem quickly fixed. Perhaps the AR7000 has a problem too, time will tell. There is little evidence of a systemic vulnerability of the new spread spectrum R/C solutions, indeed, quite the opposite, with many, many reports of models and sites previously experiencing problems with FM finding them completely gone with spread spectrum.

There seem to be factual problems with some of what NikolayTT is writing.

Mobile phones - The mobile phone bands used around the world are 800/850/900/1800/1900 MHz. Even harmonics from most of these would be way out (although clearly the 3rd harmonic of 800MHz would be in the ballpark). While front-end overload can occur on any Rx and in the very unlikely event that a malfunctioning cellphone would or could output 1W sustained RF power, unless that phone was within meters of the R/C aircraft the chances of it swamping the Rx are extremely low. The real risk from mobile phones is very small.

NikolayTT please explain specifically how a mobile phone could cause serious and long lasting interference to a moving R/C Rx which is likely to be at considerable distance ? By what mechanism could such interference occur and be sustained long enough to significanty affect control of the aircraft ?

Alternatives to Spread Spectrum - It is odd and incorrect to use ZigBee as an example of alternatives to spread spectrum when it is in fact explicitly a Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (DSSS) technology! Indeed, the XPS XtremeLink R/C solution is based on the MaxStream xBee/xBeePro modules.

There have been many self-professed RF experts proclaiming why the new generation of R/C systems cannot work, will fail mysteriously or are inherently flawed. As mentioned by others, no system is perfect, no RF solution 100% reliable and no electronic product immune to manufacturing defects and runtime failures. What matters is whether the new generation R/C solutions are likely to provide greater security and performance than the ones they seek to replace. I would say that the great weight of evidence so far is that they do indeed out-perform FM overall. Early adopters will be exposed to higher risks of bugs and problems in immature products (eg the AR6100 bug). However these will be flushed out quickly and even nervous Nellies should be comfortable to buy a spread spectrum R/C solution by 2008.

caltrop

Yesterday, 28 May 2007, I lost contact with my plane using a DX7 and an AR7000. Instead of mine sailing away it nosed straight into the ground - CRUNCH! Little bits all over the place. The failure occured just after coming out of a turn while flying inverted; it started to nose down a little so I pushed up on the stick to make it climb, then it started to roll a little so I pushed to the side a little, NOTHING! Down it went!

I know what you mean about Spektrum / Horizon - IT'S YOUR FAULT! not theirs, heaven forbid that the glorius DX7 failed.

I had a similar problem with the Eflite / Horizon Blade CP Pro RTF - NOT!!! Out of the box after all the control checks it hovered a bit until I gave it some more throttle then over it went. Turns out that the servo arms were not set the same and one servo bottomed out befor the other causing the heli to roll over. Again - 'THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS!'. Test flown at the factory - by whom? The heli I had would never fly in the condition it was in!

Well, I'm out of flying until I can get a new Futaba radio and a new plane to fly. Even when and if Spektrum sends back a fixed radio I am NOT using it again!

Even when and if Spektrum sends back a fixed radio I am NOT using it again!

Angry - YOU BET! I have a $350 radio that is junk and what's left of my plane, mostly servos.

Check this URL: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...re#post7072197

caltrop

Wow, can you imagine a 90 size helicopter with carbon fiber V-Blades sailing uncontrolled into the spectators because the DX7 lost contact with it?

kgfly

Wouldn't that be just as ugly as a 90 size helicopter with carbon fiber V-Blades sailing uncontrolled into the spectators because the FM-radio lost contact with it?

Nobody should expect a 0% failure rate with any system. Spektrum and the other 2.4GHz spread spectrum solutions offer safety advantages over legacy FM systems, like protection from causing or experiencing shootdowns, higher RF sensitivity and noise rejection and operational advantages like easing of frequency controls. If those benefits don't seem worthwhile then don't use the technology. The question to consider is this, if you were to take 20k FM users at random and 20k Spektrum users, which group would report more (suspected) radio-related incidents ?

It hurts when someone loses a model for whatever reason (short of their own deliberate stupidity) and I can understand the sense of frustration and anger that results when this happens with a brand new technology. However each user will have to assess the risk/benefit tradeoff based on a consideration of the whole picture. It is possible there is a design or manufacturing problem with any new product and we all want to see them worked out ASAP.

aviti

My Feedback: (54)

Well stated posts KGFLY. I decided to not be an early adopter but my confidence is growing. I think by the time the JR 12x is released I will feel comfortable enough that the bugs are all worked out.

zoott

[quote]ORIGINAL: kgfly


It's very frustrating when you save up $350 and then loose a plane just to find out there is updated firmware for the receiver you had in your plane. Having horizon offer to ship and update the receiver hardly makes up for my loss. I am unhappy with the support i received as are others.
I am still using my spektrum but, not as confidently as I would have liked.
I wonder if it would change if a AMA big shot lost a plane.

wildnloose

caltrop,
did u find out what happened to cause the crash???

mrbill76

[quote]ORIGINAL: kgfly



I can guarantee you my friend, it would be the spektrum users. The problem right now is your just hearing about a small % of some of the problems being encountered. I can assure you it is far worse then that of what you are hearing now. And as you can see, Horizon isn't very fond of all this chatter about the problems we are having with their miracle product. The problems that don't exist according to them of course .

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5894644

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5920629

caltrop

I just got the DX7 back. []

What Horizon did:
replaced the antennas for the AR7000 & AR6100
updated the receivers firmware
bench tested stuff and of course found nothing

Funny thing is that if they did nothing to the DX7 why does it no longer recognize the AR6000's (the old DX6 Rx)? I did not send the AR6000's back with the DX7, only the AR7000 & AR6100. All of the DX7 programming is still there but it does not recognize the AR6000 I had in my 'Bug' (it was marked so I know it went in the 'Bug'); I had to re-bind the same Rx I had in the 'Bug'.

Now the DX7 binds correctly with the AR6000, it takes a while but is does bind now. Something was updated in the DX7 since it now does everything it is supposed to and forgot the AR6000 for the 'Bug'. I can see Horizon trying to cover up thing so they don't get sued but if something is really wrong with the DX7 it eventually will blow up in their face, especially if someone gets killed because of a DX7 locking up.[>:]

rmh

If you don't like it - sell it -

kgfly

Probably because they bound that model to a DSM2 Rx to check it was working.