Silent-AV8R

This is what I have been trying to get across. Hobbico is NOT "AKA Futaba USA". There actually IS a Futaba USA, based in CHicago, and it has nothing to do with Hobbico. There is not one single person in the Hobbico building in Champaign, Illinois who is paid by Futaba.


This is pretty much what I said. But they do it on a basis determined by their work load. It is not a full time eye glued to the computer thing. It is a small part of their job to try to keep track of what is going on in cyberspace.


I can say it pretty easily. To the best of my knowledge the only people who take the time to track these forums are Bill and Krysta, and as I keep trying to make clear, they work for Hobbico in Illinois. They communicate with Futaba engineers in Japan. I suppose it is possible that others within Futaba look here as well, but I doubt that it is a formal thing and I doubt even more that it has any affect on what happens within Futaba.

And we have to keep in mind that what is said here and on other forums is only part of the puzzle for them. They have to look at what it sent back to them and what issues they can identify on the bench. So while I know that it seems like the Internet and what is said on it is the be all end all of information sources, that is simply is not the case.

Some links:

http://www.futaba.com/
http://www.futaba.com/corporate/locations/index.asp
http://www.hobbico.com/career.html

carrellh

So, what has the European distributor done about the heat issue and the "dot" conspiracy?

ira d

I know Bax is not paid by Futaba but Hobbico is the exclusive Futaba importer and
service center for the USA market and also the exclusive contact as far as hobby rc
is concearned so in my book Hobbico is Futaba USA.

BXC53

Silent-AV8R makes some good points. It's clear that Hobbico is the exclusive distributor of Futaba hobby products in North America. The other aspects of their business relationship are, well, their business.

However, as consumers, we buy Futaba products through Hobbico with a warranty, administered by Hobbico. Now, and this is only speculation on my part, but it's entirely possible that the consumer warranty does not 'pass through' to Futaba itself. Many imported consumer products are purchased by distributors as-is from the manufacturer.
This is generally a business decision. Warranties are not an entitlement, but are more like an insurance policy. Presumably, the per unit cost of the goods would be lower for the distributor if the manufacturer doesn't have warranty costs. It's a numbers game for the distributor- lower cost per unit, so they set aside a warranty reserve out of their mark up.

This works pretty well to cover individual failures and probably even provides a budget for the occasional 'good will' coverage- i.e. the unit didn't really fail from manufacturing defects, but the consumer get a new one anyway.

Where this (hypothetical) system breaks down is if there is a wide spread design or component issue, as seems the case with the low heat tolerance. Now the distributor is looking at significant warranty costs without recourse to the manufacturer.

If this speculation is accurate, it would help explain (not excuse) Hobbico's head in the sand approach to any potential wide spread issues.

Just my .02 cents

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

An easy solutuion to verifying weather Hobbico, and/or BAX represents Futaba or does not is to have Bax and Hobbico state so; then if this is the case, Hobbico/Bax could direct us to who we sould be complaining to about the; and I love this; the 'DOT CONSPIRACY'!

onewasp

Quote-"
Remember that in the USA, the first rule of avoiding the legal repercussions of faulty products or negligence is to deny everything. Elsewhere in the world honesty and integrity are often more important than covering your ass. That's why the European response is so different to the US one I suspect."
Quote

XJet,
A little harsh but perhaps true in all too many cases.
To the complete disgust of everyone I know we have become a "litigation lottery society".
We've got more Attorneys than people with normal thought patterns.

Ah well, this too will pass.

ira d

If you purchased the product in the USA then all complaints would have to go through
Hobbico, Im not going to waste my time just prove a point but im sure if any of us made
contact with any of the Futaba corporate offices any where in the world about a 9C 12FG
problem as just a comsumer you would be refered back to Hobbico.

As a side note I have worked in copier repair field for close to 30 years The way they
handle warranty is this the dealer who sales the copier will put some of the profit
from the sale in a warranty fund for 90 days if there is no service required during the
90 day period the money sat aside become full profit and the copier is enrolled in a
service contract that is paid by the copier's owner.

Also in that 90 day period the factory will provide the dealer parts to repair the copier
if needed but will not remburs for labor as that would come from the dealers warranty
fund.

CiprianGugu

My Feedback: (17)

Well, I have started in this hobby with Futaba equipment back in 1997, and have owned a few Futaba transmitters since then. I like their equipment, but I have moved on to other brands just because of Hobbico's way of denying and keeping quiet about different problems when in Europe they issued a recall...... So, I just moved on and I will not buy another Futaba stuff any more. Hit them where it hurts, in their pockets. I know that I am just a small player and I don't matter much to Hobbico, but if they continue this way, all they do is lose more and more customers. I hope they turn around.

ustas

My Feedback: (13)

I agree with CiprianGugu's position. If Futaba (Futaba is Hobbico to me in USA) does not want to aknowledge the problem and do an exchange (50% paid by the customer as somebody had suggested on this or some other forum or whatever) and they do not respond to the posts on the Futaba (please note, on the Futaba and not Hobbico support forum) forum to the posts on the heat issue (they had responded to the other posts) then al least for me there are two choices:
1. move on with my life, forget Futaba/Hobbico and get a different brand radio and do not support vendors/manufactures who wants to "sweep the "heat issue" under the rag" in a hope that customers who have been supporting them with their money will excuse poor Hobbico because it is not them, but bad guys at Futaba in Japan would not admit the problem and bad guys are too far away and do not monitor this forum and do not know that receivers fail but by a miracle came up with a dotted version of receiver that does not have heat issue.
2. keep complaining in a hope that this info will spread over the support sites and Hobbico will do something; at the same time if Futaba silently fixed the problem other folks will still buy their products because some people had already paid for the R&D and Futaba/Hobbico or Hobbico/Futaba is making and selling a good (at least in a heat resistance sense) product now.
At least say "yes, we know that there is a problem, but can do nothing about it or our terms of the contract with Futaba do not allow us to step up and recall the affected receivers. Then at least customers would not feel fooled and ignored. And by the way this is not about money only, it is also about treating customers!
And last but not least, the forum was about the Futaba/Hobbico's position on the issue - do not admit the problem and not who is Bill's and Krysta's employer. At this point I care less if they work for Futaba or for Hobbico, it does not matter to me to whom I am loosing my money.

Happy Flying !

SManMTB

Futaba is probably afraid to admit anything to US customers of fear. They now the US is 'sue happy' and it's cheaper for them to hide and not say or admit anything even if that is the correct way to treat the customer base.
It's a harsh thing to say but in business that is sadly the case here in the US.

Having a recall or exchange paid 50% by the customer is something I would definately be in favor of. The FASST system is great when it's working as it supports both PPM (analog and digital servos) and HRS mode (digital servos). That is something I miss in the Spektrum system I got for the 3PKS. Not having HRS means I can't fully use the potential of digital servos. I'd be happy to pay $40-$45 for each FASST receiver to make them work properly.
The Spektrum modules and Rx are easy to sell. The FASST systems are cold as ice on the used market due to this.

Dick T.

My Feedback: (243)

My questions are these:

1. Why does anyone think there is a wide spread heat issue, or any issue for that matter? Just because a several people plastered it all over the net? How many issues with defective receivers really did exist? Other than hand wringing conjecture here only Futaba knows.

2. Futaba may have determined more bullet proofing is needed to avoid future possibilities even though actual failures are minimal. Hence the update (Dot?).

It really doesn't matter what Futaba says, doesn't say nor what Hobbico says. Some folks are just plain pile on complainers deriving pleasure from blowing smoke at each other.

Futaba has been my manufacturer of choice for over 30 years with nary a problem other than the ones I generate. I own a lot of current 72 and 2.4 gear and it's operation is flawless.

As mentioned before, if one wants their fanny kissed, find another source.

Moving on, tired of this silly argument and the shameful unmanly wailing.

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Dick T;

Lighten up; I don't believe I read anywhere that anyone suggested that this was a wide spread problem, just that the problem and the appearance of the DOTs, have been showing up here and there with no explained answers.

Then Lo and Behold, someone conducts a Heat test on their own, puts it on Video, and shows a problem; it may have been rigged, I don't think so, it looks pretty convincing.

Most, if not all of the threads are merely asking for an explanation, and for you to say that it doesn't matter what Futaba and Hobbico says or not says, only means that you must love to throw money away and believe everything that the government and manufacturers throw at you, just like agent orange was stated to be safe.

Are we complaining, you bet, Futaba/Hobbico can do us all a favor and give some feedback.

I'm happy for you and the 30 year love affair that you have enjoyed with Futaba; I'm also happy that you have never had a problem; myself and many of us complainers have also had good luck with Futaba; we just want a response to the problem that has evolved and explain the DOTs.

Nothing sinister about it at all, just a simple explanation from Futaba/Hobbico, not too much to ask; call it complaining if you like, I could care less. I'm not about to lay some more cash out to Futaba for 2.4 unless I can hear an explanation; why take a chance until then, it doesn't get any simplier than that; were not looking to get our fannies kissed or using this thread to do some wailing, whatever!

SManMTB

Agreed.
Dick T makes the same pro-Futaba-screw-the-customer arguments like in an earlier post about over heating FASST receivers. Ignore it.

Futaba finally went ahead and posted the actual specs for FASST in the 10C manual but this was WAY after people starting reporting about over heating issues.
Becasue of this obvious issue FASST systems were far and few between at the track I race during last years season. They all went Spektrum including myself and the problems disappeared.

ira d

As I said before and will say again the fact that futaba wont commit tells us there is
a problem they wont even answer questions about the heat issue why not?

I think the Futaba 2.4 system works well but when potential problems come to light
that could effect the safe use of said product and Futaba refuses to discuss the issue
it tends to effect your trust in the product. As I said before it appears they have a
fix for the heat issue and at somepoint the supply pipeline will be clear of the old
product but what about the next issue will they say anything? or leave the cust to
fend for them self.

sevans16

If Hobbico does not have to answer to me as a consumer then tell me where I can have my Futaba products serviced elsewhere?? If I can not deal with "Futaba" but deferred to Hobbico then that make Bax(Service Manger) the one I complain too!!Bax may be just a middle man between consumers and the manufacture(Futaba) but that would mean it is his job to relay consumer thoughts to Futaba so they may indeed improve CS relations.

Kwesdog

I agree Ira. The underlying issue here is safety.

We all take the risks that go along with flying R/C in the first place so why test those risks even more when Futaba can confirm that they have taken steps to mitigate a known risk that involves one of their products.

No one is cursing the products. They just want to know the answer to a simple question.

Ask youself this. Would you fly on a commercial aircraft knowing that there was a potential problem with them simply blowing up mid-flight? I bet not even if the risk was minimal it would still be a risk.

Harry

ustas

My Feedback: (13)

I think futaba does not want to admit the problem because at the introduction of the 7C FASST system futaba had to check (there was a warning on the futaba web site) the first batch of 7Cradios for programming error (binding problems of different radios to the same receiver or something similar); 7C owners were advised to send radios in or to go to the designated locations (mostly at hobby shops) to have radios checked. Then it is the heat issue. It does create bad publicity to have two problems in a row with the same system.
These are technical problems and could be solved one way or the other.
But what bothers me is the is the fact that neither hobbico nor futaba represented by Bax and Crysta keep silent and do not answer posts.

ira d

I have to wonder if Futaba is really that concearned about law suits at this stage of the
game because I dont think they could they could convince any jury that they knew
nothing of the heat problem or that they have acted in good fath toward the cust as
far as disclosing what is going on.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Right on the money. Large corporations with sophisticated marketing/product groups never do research into what customers and potential customers want, need, or worry about. They've got no interest in customer concerns, particularly when the concerns are readily available. Large companies such as Futaba's RC division regularly ignore their largest customers, too. Their single largest customer happens to be Hobbico, which is absolutely powerless to comment on the issue. Hobbico has constraints placed upon it that companies such as Global and Horizon just don't have. Don't people understand that?

And Hobbico never takes the stance that their products are without problems. I mean, look at the questions about the quality of MonoKote lately, right?

Sometimes things are considerably simpler than some people would like to believe. Sometimes those beliefs are due to the misplaced emotions of brand loyalty. I don't know about you, but as a consumer brand loyalty has never served me particularly well. Pursuing the best products has.

Silent-AV8R

Ah, sarcasm, I recognize that. So in your mind an Internet forum is the same as a marketing focus group and survey?? Got it. It is indeed mystifying then why so many businesses which rely on this type of information foolishly spend 10's of millions of dollars per year on market research when all they really have to do is read Internet forums.

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

On your other point, what we are then left with is that Hobbico is a malicious organization who are steadfast in their desire to hide the "truth" from their customers. Their only goal is to cheat you out of your hard earned money and ignore you when you ask questions. Clever business model and one that seems to be fairly successful.

Oh, and while Hobbico might be Futaba Hobby Radio Controls largest customer (I do not know this for certain, but it seems reasonable) I can assure you that they are Futaba's largest customer. Futaba is nearly a Billion Dollar per year corporation of which the hobby group is but a small part.

Oh well.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

But do you recognize satire, and the purpose of it?

Of course not. Did I say that? No. Forums such as this are just one source of customer contact. Surely you know this, but for some reason you seem to have a desire to defend Hobbico and Futaba.

Which is why I specifically mentioned "Futaba's RC division." Did you miss that in your haste to respond?

My question for you is this: Why are your expectations for Hobbico so low, and why do you believe that Hobbico cannot respond to questions as Horizon and Global can (and do!)? Now, I don't expect you to actually have the answer to the second part of that question, simply because you can't possibly have it. It is something to think about, however. The first part of the question shouldn't be too hard, though.

I have never understood why consumers take it upon themselves to defend a company when the company chooses not to match the standards of the industry they participate in. In this hobby, most suppliers have traditionally been forthright with their customers. I'd like to see that continue. Wouldn't you? Let's not keep lowering the bar.

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Hey Guys, back to the original theme of the thread 'The lack of repsonse from Futaba and/or Hobbico'; this thread and several others related to the Heat Intolerance Issues; the explanation of the DOT's, etc ; have now gone unanswered for about 3 to 4 days; it's clear that for the time being they are being ignored because perhaps Bax, Krysta, Hobbico, etc; don't have any asnswers yet, or at least Futaba hasn't provided any direction; in either event, they could have at least stated that this is the case, instead of not replying, leaving us with the impression they don't care or would rather just ignore us instead, hoping this will pass.

Anyway you look at it, its poor customer relations to say the least, I would have expected more from a company or their representatives that derive their livelihood from our hobby.

Silent-AV8R

My expectations are not low, they are realistic and based on my experience and observations. And I do have some working knowledge of the differences between the Futaba/Hobbico and Horizon/JR relationships. And my observation is that they are in fact different.

I am not defending Hobbico per se, more I am making comments on how I think it is not fair to chastise Bill and Krysta for what they do, or do not, say on the Internet. And I think your characterization that most other hobby companies are forthright and open while Hobbico is secretive is not true. But I doubt we will ever agree on that point.

I guess in the end if people really feel that strongly and negatively about Hobbico/Futaba then they are free to spend their money elsewhere. If they are as bad as you and others want to make them out to be then the market will take care of them. Or at least that is the way it is supposed to work.

carrellh

Bax and Krysta both responded about dots in this thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7974365/tm.htm
Krysta wrote: We're not sure why that dot is there...
Bax wrote: We'd not have any idea why a receiver would come with a white dot...

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Bill is an excellent source of information. He has a very deep knowledge of the hobby. When people go after him, I think they're going after the wrong person. Bill is just an employee, and must work within the framework provided to him.

I'd like to see Hobbico be as open as their competitors. Do you agree with me that they aren't? I think they would be more successful if they were. Customers never enjoy feeling in the dark or as though they have to determine the problems with products on their own. Nobody expects perfection, particularly when dealing with new technologies. Expectations of a bit more openness when it comes to dealing with perceived problems certainly aren't out of line, however.