Deadeye

I have a buddy thinking about getting back into the hobby. All of his radios are Futaba, and all made prior to '91. He's got a Gold 7 channel, a couple of gold 6 channels and a couple of Conquests. Are these radios upgradeable to the gold sticker? If so, how much can I tell him he will have to spend?

Thank you for your time.

heliguy

My Feedback: (3)

Check out this Futaba FAQ.

http://www.futaba-rc.com/faq/service-faq.html#q41

For what it's worth - Al

cwesh

Radio South services older radios, ask them: http:\\www.radiosouthrc.com

Later!

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

The time for getting a radio modified and gold stickered is past. It is not legal to modify transmitters any more or I would still be doing it. If someone does it for you and puts the date on the gold sticker as they should it will be very easy to spot. This is too bad because the "gold" Futaba FG is a very easy transmitter to bring up to '91 spec. I could be doing several of these a week if it was legal.

AMA gold sticker station number 131,

Pete

Sport_Pilot

I thought it was still legal for the manufacture or their service center to gold sticker a radio. But no longer allowed by a private company. Is that wrong?

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

Futaba will not modify the radios for you. It is not leagal any more to modify transmitters any more. There was a grace period to bring old equipment up to date but it is over now.

By the time you had the transmitter modified ($25) and bought a new receiver ($65) you would be so close to buying a new radio with all new servos and nicads that it would not be worth the money to update an old system. Just my thoughts

Pete

Sport_Pilot

Well actually $25 is less than a new transmitter. You always need extra recievers and servos anyway. I suppose the only other option is to get a ham licence and put a ham frequency RF deck in the radio. But IMO unless it has a special feature such as a single stick, or maybe those old smooth metal gimbal sticks it is better to buy a new radio. Unless maybe you want to home build that microstar computer radio. That's also only legal if you do this on the ham band.

Rick Lindsey

Doh! I guess this means theres no point in trying to dig up the radio I had back in the late 80's from my parents basement?

Sport_Pilot

Didn't some radios from the late 80's have narrow band? I think they did, but they only used the channels that were far enough from the broad band channels that they wouldn't conflict.

Course you could try for that HAM license.

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

Most (but not all) FM transmitters made back then were narrow. I have seen a few AM transmitters that pass the 55db down at 20 kHz band width. I don't think I ever found a transmitter that I couldn't modify to bring it in.

There might be people out there still doing the modifications but according to what the AMA told me the grace period is over for bringing transmitters up to date and it is no longer legal. I know Futaba and JR will not bring an old transmitter up to date any more. If someone can prove me wrong please let me know because I still get calls to update transmitters.

I think at one point around 1990 I was doing about 180 transmitters a week. I know I went through more than three roles of 2000 gold stickers all together.

Pete

linclogs

"The time for getting a radio modified and gold stickered is past. It is not legal to modify transmitters any more or I would still be doing it. If someone does it for you and puts the date on the gold sticker as they should it will be very easy to spot."
**********************************************
I'm confused.

Radio South gold stickered an older radio for me last fall. As other's in this thread have mentioned (along with countless other threads) that's what they (and a few other companies) do. My understanding is they are licensed to do just that. I DID have to buy a new receiver (old one could not be upgraded) but they DID gold sticker the transmitter and tune everything. In my particular case, the system had some features that no new (non-computer) radios of today seem to have and it was an old favorite. Was worth it to me to pay for the upgrade. My understanding is that it is now "legal" - anyway, that's supposedly what I paid for.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Linclogs

Here is what I beleive has happened and Modeltronnics please correct me if I have made some errors. By the way Modeltronnics has probably done more narrow banding than anybody in the country and quite accurate when he states we are long past the cutoff date for narrow banding.

It was agreed by a board of manufacturers and the AMA frequency committee working with the FCC and was accepted by the FCC after the 1991 expansion and rechanneling of the 72 and 75 Mhz bands which required much tighter Tx standards. As a part of this national frequency plan there was a cut off date which occurred sometime in 1998 that after which point the manufacturers could no longer narrow band their radios which were capable of being narrow banded. In 1998 and no doubt due to much grumbling there appears to have been an indeterminate grace period alluded to by Modeltronnics in his post above. At any rate that grace appears to be long over and none of the manufacturers will or can narrowband anymore as per the original industry agreement. Now the independent shops have continued on for a while now still doing it because they were not originally mentioned in the agreement and this is very much a grey area. At this point in time there may not be any still doing it but possible. It certainly will not last much longer if so.

I feel its about time that to stop, literally years that it was agreed upon. There are thousands of this old stuff still out there and it gets sold at swap meets and yard sales to innocent newbies and it constantly shows up at fields all over the country who after being informed about it either go off by themselves and still operate it or peddle it of to the next unsuspecting newbie. many of these folks are lost to the sport forever because of this. I have had people show up with radios that were obviously never capable of being narrow banded with 'gold stickers' on them. The situation is ridiculous when people start stealing the stickers. In one case now I have seen one individual radio with a stolen gold sticker show up at the field with three different unsuspecting newbies, Ever hear of an Orbit AM radio on 72.400 (an obsolete no longer exsisting channel) with a gold sticker, well me either.

Gentlemen its time we all need to start showing a little responsibility. we need to stop telling people to just get it narrowbanded. Any shops that may still be doing it should stop. We need to stop telling people its alright just go off in the boonies. If we keep this up countless more people are going to be screwed also. To date we have a wonderfull frequency spectrum to work with and it is essentially self policed by the industry, AMA and ourselves but I wonder just how long that will last as the primary users of the spectrum (and thats not us) rapidly fill up the interspersed channels between ours if we continue to allow the 'narrow banding' fiasco continue.

Linclog your radio was recently and legitamately narrow banded even though after the cutoff date you are good to go and have no worries.

I apologise for a bit of a rant but this is a legitamate problem that needs to be addressed by all of us.

John

MO_Radio_Tech

There is some confusion here.

Yes, the gold sticker program is over--gold stickers are no longer required on new equipment, or old equipment to verify if it is narrow. However, some flying clubs and contests require the gold stickers on older radios for safety/AMA reasons.

Some licensed shops can and will modify and re-tune older wide-band equipment to be narrowed. I know for a fact that Radio South will still do this and there are other shops out there that can. This does not include receivers, which are extremely difficult to narrow.

Horizon will still narrow older FM/PCM JR transmitters (and/or their modules). It just involves adding a couple of resistors and retuning the module/RF board.

It must be legal or Horizon would have quit doing it. My understanding is the gold stickers are no longer needed because the gold sticker program is past. I don't think Horizon puts the gold sticker on anymore when they re-tune.

I have recently seen this discussed over at ASK DANNY for JR radios.

I do not know about Futaba/Hobbico. I would send older Futaba to Radio South.

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

I can see a can of worms getting opened here....

I called the AMA this morning and talked to the tech. director. Here are his words.... "by the letter of the law it is no longer legal to modify transmitters"

I do know people are still doing it. I checked by e-mailing a place that does it. Just like people change transmitter crystals and know it is not legal also is this the same thing?

Sooooo... this brings up a question in my mind. If your insurance might not be any good if you change transmitter crystals, as discussed enough times on RCU, Is the insurance good if you had a transmitter modification done after the grace time was over? Something to think about, how could the insurance company get out of paying if there was a problem, maybe if the transmitter was modified to '91 specs last month or last year?

I'm not trying to start something here. Just something to think about.

Pete

Sport_Pilot

Sooooo... this brings up a question in my mind. If your insurance might not be any good if you change transmitter crystals, as discussed enough times on RCU, Is the insurance good if you had a transmitter modification done after the grace time was over? Something to think about, how could the insurance company get out of paying if there was a problem, maybe if the transmitter was modified to '91 specs last month or last year?

Something to consider. Even it was not law per say, but a Letter of Understanding between the AMA and FCC. Then the radio companies still doing this may have an out. But the user may have a problem collecting insurance from the AMA. However, even if using an illegal radio the I think the AMA should pay, unless it can be proved the radio was not transmitting properly and is likely to be the cause of the accident. I have been the bad boy of the crystal discussion, but I don't swap the transmitter crystal because well some of the transmitters have modules, and the others don't need it, but the last time I swapped frequencies I had Radio South do it because I suspected the transmitter was bleeding past its original channel. It was supposedly affecting someone on an adjacent channel. Radio South said it was OK and didn't need tuning on the new channel? No problems since, I suspect the owner had a bad receiver, he crashed later supposedly due to interference and my radio was at home, and not even on the adjacent channel anymore.

linclogs

Now I'm wondering about another issue (related). Is all this about not being able to narrowband anymore an AMA rule or FCC law? Maybe that's the issue - AMA says "no" but FC still allows those licensed to do so work on the older radios that CAN be upgraded. I can see that being a possiblility. However, I'm not in AMA and haven't been for about 23 years.

I no longer belong to a club (haven't for 23+ years), don't participate in anybody's club events, and prefer to fly alone or with just a few other friends these days. We all have different frequencies so don't have an issue with interferrence with each others equipment. And we fly where there is no "Public" (spectators, cars - other than our own- etc.) to have to deal with.

I would definitely recommend AMA (they seem to be the only game available these days) for anyone who DOES partipate in the "club scene", but I outgrew that many years ago. Don't misunderstand - I'm not knocking it - IF that's your thing. I just got tired of going to the club field, waiting around for hours for the frequency pin so I could fly maybe 3 or 4 times on a Saturday or Sunday. No I go to my secret spot and fly when I want for how long I want. And yes, I still take an occasional beginner under my wing so as to "give back" to the hobby.

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

From my conversation with the AMA this morning it is not an AMA rule that no more transmitter modifications be done, it is an FCC law. As I remember , myself and all other gold sticker stations got a notification that after a specific date in '98 no more transmitter modifications were to be done. This may have something to do with "was that particular transmitter FCC type accepted with the modifications in it" . The people still doing the modifications and stickering have nothing to do with some type of special license (there is none), my bet is it is still about money.


I want to also comment about the story that JohnBuckner tells above about a guy with an Orbit on 72.4 with a gold sticker.... When I was doing a lot of gold stickering a guy sends me what looked like a brand new Airtronics transmitter to get stickered. My first thought is this radio should have come stickered. I checked it, put a gold sticker on it and sent it back. About a month later the same guy sends me another Airtronics radio just like the first to be stickered. (I now think it might have been the same one) I checked it and when I went to put a sticker on it I could see where there used to be a gold sticker. I put a new sticker on it, then got out some CA glue. I put a drop of CA on each corner of the sticker. I sent the radio back to the guy and in about a week I get a VERY angry phone call. He wanted to know why I glued the sticker on. I asked why he would ever want to take it off? He told me he may need to clean it at some time. I told him " I was born at night but not last night" . After he called me a few nice names he hung up....... I wonder what might have been going on with the stickers?

Back to my original point. In ' 98 I was told not to modify any more transmitters to '91 spec because it was no longer legal and the AMA told me the same thing on the phone today, it is not legal to do.

Now lets go flying!

Pete

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

One more thing.

I just called Horizon. They will NOT modify a transmitters electronics to bring it up to '91 spec. What they will do is sell you a new transmitter module that is up to date if your transmitter is one that takes a module.

I like to call and get the facts from the right people.

Now get off the computer and go out flying !

Pete

linclogs

I checked Radio South's website and this is what it currently states (copied and pasted exactly from their website):


INTRODUCTION
Radio South has been in the radio system service business since its beginnings in 1976. As our business grows, we are increasing our listing of systems that we repair. We now service Futaba, JR, Airtronics, Kraft,
Pro-Line, Ace R/C, EK, HiTec/RCD, Aristo-Craft, Hobby Shack, and Tower Hobbies. We carry factory schematics and keep in contact with the factory service departments in order to stay up to date on all of the latest service information. Our relationship with the many factory service departments
(such as Futaba) is such that we are frequently recommended BY THEM for specialty equipment and service! We are proud of our service and will work hard to keep you flying.

SERVICE
We have a complete service facility with the latest in service equipment, including a Spectrum Analyzer. We are a RCMA authorized sticker station (#22). The "gold" sticker program assures that a transmitter meets
the 1991 narrow-band requirements for transmitter emissions assigned by the FCC and AMA.

Our service capability includes complete repair (both annual service and "crash" damage repair), frequency changes, tuning and updating to "1991" narrow-band standards, as well as specialty work on Gyros. We offer custom transmitter configurations such as left-handed, mode changes, specialized single stick systems and custom throttle locations for disabled pilots. We can build special aircraft servo harnesses for large scale aircraft, jets and other special requirements.

************************************************** *******

So is this all just BS? 'Cause they (and a few others) are recommended for upgrades almost everyday somewhere here on RCUniverse and other websites. I've got to admit, when it comes to radio systems, I don't know didly about all the intracancies of what can be done and for how long, etc. I relied on the advice (lots of it!) from other modelers and the information from the company. They answered all my questions (lots of them) and laid it all out about what was required and how much it would cost to make my older radio legal.

Here's some more questions: Has there been any changes regarding what is considered an upgrade since 1991? Are those radios that were upgraded to "gold" before the "deadline" still legal to use?

You know, I can remember when they first came up with the narrow band issue. In the very beginning we were told that after a certain date ALL our old radios would be illegal to use and everyone would have to buy brand new radios. Doesn't that sound like a scheme the radio manufacturers would just be lickin' their chops over? Was there collusion between AMA and the manufacturers to get the older stuff out of the picture so lots of new radios would have to be purchased? I hate to flog a dead horse here, but I guess what bothers me is if a radio meets the current specs, no matter when it was modified to meet those specs, what does it matter?

OK, I'm done. I promise I won't open any more cans of worms....!

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

The specs for narrow band have not changed. 55 db down at 20 kHz off of center. The radios that have had the modifications by me and others are still very legal. From the information I have been given by the AMA the time for updating any transmitter that did not meet the '91 specs is over and now it is not legal to do any more modifications. How places are getting away with it is a puzzle to me. I would love to be doing modifications again. The modifications were very easy for me to do and it was a good way to make money to support my hobby. The expensive part is the equipment it takes to do the measurments (and I do have the proper calibrated equipment).

Maybe someone from one of the places still doing the modifications could comment on it. I would love to hear what they have to say.

I just got home from flying and have to get ready for the fly in at Sig this weekend.

Pete

Sport_Pilot

The FCC doesn't exactly make law, they rule by regulation which has the force of law. The certification procedure has the backing of law also. I think that a modification to bring a radio into narrow band standards would require a waiver from the FCC. I think that is what the gold sticker program was. However I would like to see the waiver or reg in writing. The AMA sometimes gets in bed with the manufactures and service industry, and actually they should to the extent of promoting the hobby. I would rather see something from the FCC. If you were gold stickering the radios, seems to me you would have a copy of the original waiver or reg that started that program.

Sport_Pilot

He MUST know something we don't!?

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

I don't have any of the paperwork on the FCC regs anymore since I stopped stickering radios in '98. If someone has a copy I would also like to see it. What I do have is several hundered gold stickers left over. I think I may even have about a thousand silver stickers that are no longer worth the material they are printed on. LOL. I can only go by the information the AMA gave me on the phone this morning.

Pete

modeltronics

My Feedback: (27)

Great idea! What would it take to get Tony Stillman on here to comment.

KB9STD

My Feedback: (1)

I keep hearing what the AMA has to say,but not the FCC!
I am aware that the "AMA" had a "Gold Sticker" program
(NOT the FCC,and not a regulation).I know that that (the "Gold Sticker" program) has expired;But the sticker was NEVER a requirement anyway.I am aware that "the Manufacturers" had an agreement not to upgrade their equipment after a certain date.
I haven't heard an explanation of how that affects having a radio retuned by a private technician.I don't care about a pretty gold sticker.I don't care about the AMA(they have no authority to regulate anything).I don't care if YOU have no way of determining that my radio meets required specification(that's MYresponsibility)
If I send an older radio to an independent shop to be retuned to a current frequency.When I get it back,it WILL meet the required specification(if not I sent it to the wrong people!) and it WILL be LEGAL to operate.The specification (Requirement) states what the transmitter CANNOT do (Emit sidebands greater than -55db at 20kHz and/or frequency more than 1.5kHz from center).

....An interesting point.I read in someone's post that building a "Micro star" transmitter is only Legal an the HAM band.The FCC regulations specifically state that "You can build your equipment from a kit",they don't say exactly what they consider a kit.